the, the, [000:00:00;00] the, if you was thinking about russia,

what does your mind picture the bottom landscapes open up the fully lines the lot one does you imagine the, the discounts dodge the journey, the, the, you ready to come along the welcome to chrome smartphones were all things are considered on peter a little, what is biting a need to achieve escalating ukraine proxy war? oh, should we interpret russia's reaction?

and finally, where is, will trump in all of this? to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my desk or something. well, we in budapest, he's a pod cast around the goggle, which can be valid on youtube and locals and, and assemble, we cross through teddy serial. mom. he is a historian and political commentator. right, gentlemen, crosstalk rules and effects that means you can jump any time you want and i always appreciate it. okay, let's skip it off with georgian in budapest. so much couldn't be settled about what's happened in the last 10 days or even a hard to begin to start, i suppose overall, um, anticipating the bulk of the, the trump administration and we up in for 60 days of new killer chicken. george of these could well be um, the little divider in administration as the or was it determined to escalate the conflict um in ukraine? i mean, i think there's 2 reasons for that. reason. obviously, 1st of all of the, you know, them really angry about the,

the victory of donald trump in the humiliation that they just some of the hands of donald trump and that's one to box. and then um, by the time he gets into power because it goes well, have a full scale war on his hands. 2 months is a long time you can do in both a lot of mischief in 2 months. but there's a depo of exclusive duration that plays here. and that way that goes back to what the american strategy has been in this war and ukraine. and that is to degrade, humiliate, and demoralizing defeat russia. because all this, that these attacks, whether it's the attack of those, and even with these, with this drone insights, these are nato attacks, phone russians, era trick, or ukraine has not, doesn't have a means, the capability to launch long distance attacks. and russians are trips without the satellite technology information without uh,

information about the flight bathrooms. all of this is done done by nature. so therefore, if the later gets into the situation where by uh, you know, russian just sit still and accept the laser, who has the right to attack russians killed russians on rough entire trip, then rushes, these is to be a great power. russia then, is relegated the status of a north vietnam or the iraq, or a siri or libya, but good bones on a regular basis by the great powers. but they're all able to do anything. it's a to retaliate. and i think that's what the, the goal is to just keep doing this during shouldn't say, well, look, russians unable to do anything about it like that. so i rushed already has to say, no, we, we, we find out about the situation to go on. and they have said no, because they, they fired, that's a hypersonic ballistic missile, which is quite extraordinary, some of the images infinity to put a job seen of it here of teddy, are they the,

this is what rest it does when the west escalates. they let me return the favor and, and i still think, well, the western powers, with the exception of the u. k, for some reason, hasn't really been able to digest and understand that russia will not tolerate this type of behavior and versus changed it to new people or doc doctor and to a, to reflect that. i mean the, the, the west wants to escalate, rushes matched that escalation, kotik, you know, i, i think matching is exactly is a key term here, right? because when, when you look at what point has been saying about this publicly onto the and then the address to the nation. and obviously the word key as stress several times that the always be a response. make no mistake. and, but he was also use the web symmetric again and again, and sometimes he's used to with me. right. right. and so i think that's exactly

what the russian strategy right now is to respond. but in the, in a ways that exactly matches the best them escalation, but doesn't up the and beyond that as it were. because i think george has the right one corner of the dilemma, right? that's what he is described. and lemme, lemme that best. i'm strategy tries to impose investment is if you don't do anything the media to be provided again to, to secondary, tertiary status in the international system as it mediates but the other one of the them all of causes if you do the wrong thing, may finally be able to, to activate the 4 or whatever it is of optic of 5 of the made to treat the and so everything they have to you now don't get me wrong. i don't actually think nature wouldn't necessarily weight. but of course, whoever been such a large scale, right, would always be a catastrophe for everybody, including for us that nobody would be better off in the right. so that's a dilemma i think. and i, a for you,

what russia is trying to do is always finding exactly the symmetric or the mirror in the calibrated responds. no, no response, but some response and then it has to match. yeah. but matching it, you know, like getting going to the realm of, of, of extreme danger, george, because i mentioned to you k, a few seconds ago. and they, these missiles that are being fired into russia, they're british. okay. they're, they're manufactured, they're presumably the technicians along with it, using either their own or american satellite, a technology of this kind of the lead up to george that if nato is going to attack russia, then rushing me attacked. the country that is producing these missiles, killing russians, this is where we're going, george. i think so,

and i think that in boot, in some speech, um, if you would like to go, he did specifically say that given the, these ms laws are being uh, gonna be used by the british technicians or in the air with nato technicians. the late and major is providing the satellite technology in effectively nato is boeing our tar truth. therefore, we feel that we can respond to a games, those countries on their temperatures who are providing the weapons for ukraine to use the game starts. and that's, that's, that's as explicit as he's ever said anything. we, again, a type, the territory of those powers that provide these, uh, these, uh, missiles them this move this on technology to ukraine's so that's a clear warning. and so i think the now that he has made this morning, then i, i think russia product will have to follow through. because if this does happen again, and i think it will happen again,

then russia has to follow through. and then of course, it does raise the question, well, what happens then? now, of course, a brand new, let's go say this is unprovoked aggression against us. and, you know, and, and then we'll go to nato and say, well, all the go 5, you know, that said one for a is the one we are all or want now with russia. but then it will, of the nato powers say, because of a say, you know, this was clearly provoked and now they being dragged into a, a wall. a gave us the nuclear polyps when they had nothing to do with this attack. any way says the end up essentially, george, they hung errands. they'll say, well, what's in the home gary in this slow that what small there didn't go right into the music that's recognized particularly when when he was civil to the countries like hungary of slovakia and the czech republic. they're all much closer to russia. and so they're going to say, well, they, we're going to get clobbered because of you. so science but no sign saying i, i don't think this is the right time to solve invoking article 5. i'm going to ask

them. of course mode of course is invisible to time, but right. absolutely. i'm not arguing for it. i'm but old george i, i agree mostly, but i disagree. and one point i read to 10 statement a tiny bit differently about i think it's important as far as i understand, he said the military installations of the powers that also address beat behind ukraine a v. and i'll be happy to write the plot of you if you have a right to attack those. and i think the 2 important clients, one is immediate to installation can ready, but it'd be on the territory of us. and so certainly not to with that out there completely agree with you. but it could also be on, for instance, territory of the nature of man. but some of the new and natal states which is i think about important zone. yeah. right. it's still natal. don't get me wrong, that's do very dangerous. the other thing is, i think they have to take the residence of

a seal receive and just say we have the right. because the russians, i'm up like the hills that's different from breast and pollutants menu here, rest on polluters and say, ukraine has the right then the mean ukraine must. your brain has the right to good intellectual. therefore, your brain must be got into nato. the russians don't seem to have that right, so much more logical with device. and so i think the can be, can they essentially reserving the option, right? but i still have a few. this doesn't take away the initial problem bridges, then they never exercise the right, right? then they get demoted geopolitically. so the issue is still there. i'm just saying that at the point of decision, right, imagine a mazda, ukrainian stripe of attack comes right again into the russian territory. at the point of decision, it seems to me that the russian leadership, fortunately, as reserved, it serves some room for maneuver, then much wise,

they're much more adult into the rooms and the best in this way. i see you. well the that's, that's, that's quite so because the problem is that by restraining themselves in the way they have for the past 3 years, they have encouraged nato to take one bold step off for another and to keep escalating. so react, they run it from start that we're very close as, oh, rush has been react. yeah. so let's you know, up the, on to, oh, they still haven't reacted. okay, well, let's do this as always, that by step, you know, bring bringing in the a abrams tanks and of the of 6 themes that you know, the mind i'll call him the high moslem and then they are not gums, you know, at each step, you know, they were watching carefully will rush or respond now and what i'm going to have to do or the between the nc you're absolutely right, but i think it's the thing that you and i talked about earlier is that over this, the 3 years in, in watching rushes reaction to escalation. now we're at a point is that is a,

a military base that is hit in the u. k with warning, when you know of ours warning, getting your people out, you know, whatever up it's going to be kind of incumbent upon the u. k. government to say, well, this is an unprovoked attack, but with all of this discussing, no one's gonna say, well, what did you expect? the hope is that this could happen, because this is, it's look at it and wouldn't be against nato. it'd be against the u. k. go ahead. george. couple reasons. no, i think that's the best one that's i think what will happen. and i think that it will be a british military installation that i think the russians will give advance warning . and yeah, the course the british government on the british media will screen, but this was an unprovoked attack, but i don't think they'll be too many bias. this was a was, i don't know if this is anything else. that's me. yes. you've had warning off the warning officer warning and uh, and you haven't paid any attention to this and you've been, that's what i see russian territory and the alleged right. so that's why i think the optically attempt to invoke optical 5, what is i think,

do that. i don't think i, i think they'll be too many men, nato member states that will say, no, i don't think so. i think we need to just cool things down it. well, that's what we all know. a hosted cooler heads will prevail that we've been asking that i've been praying for that for the last 3 years. all right, gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. i'm going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on so really to stay with archie,

the force it near wash. lots of stuff is a lot to lay out of the heat at the fortune of us and i slipped into sports and she wasn't able to review the story. unfortunately, nate or studio and i see for sure option that this be so for ship or if we started the critics, we'll go straight and you want you to where it was today. he's going to your welski territory. service can save the natural logos of it. so form a ship for ship only was there for you to think about a foot bar stool. nearby shovel in gold and the site is close. i use the doors boat also at ocean. i continued to go out and darted billing now probably in the chevy southeast which don't clear, but i still don't saw it to the south pole. so comfortable at the post and just got a smith gasket. bluish boys coming out on the bus,

which is still going to me. so i'm on the policy, i'm just, i'm a got the union goes to the local bus and the lawyer and i get to talk about it. there's dorski, a whole bunch, a bundle of g, a comfortable the some about on there. not, i mean, yeah, the desktop, i do have tulsa, single desktop, some of the the welcome across that bullhorn time peter level. here we are discussing some real news. take, let me go to you and assemble the other side of this. very complicated equation is, trump proofing nato, and um, boxing him into a corner. and you know, if he, again, looking at some of the people that are in the trunk or bed,

we have very different ideas coming from them. kind of just for one cut off the 8, you cut off the aid, the war comes to an end. there are others or say no, wait, trump is going to end this. he's going to wonder escalates, and he's gonna tell the russian was a knock it all off. okay. i mean, you have very different extremes here. who is speaking for trump. what comes mind is we don't know, i think we're, all of us would agree. it's rather peculiar that the truck drum and as a median circle been really quite, quite mum on what's going on. right now. snow is that because of the logan ass and all of these kinds of things we can discuss it, but i think it's, it's obvious the saying that the trump is being given a faith plate hinge new administration. and we're going to have to deal with fax on the ground generated to uh to the 2 months before i know your ration go ahead, take, you know, i, i think drops it right. the time factor and to change of administration is very important. and go to the bottom administration is doing now. i mean it's not just

the attack comes permission, which is more than a permission, right? it's also the land mines and to personal land mines. it's a sanctions against the strong bank, which is another very aggressive move. it's that they've gone out of the way, i mean, blankets that he basically said bill going to push every dollar behalf out of the door before it is over right before bill. but, and the only thing that was training of them a tiny bit is that most of these dollars have to spend, but installed parts of the pentagon and to stop parts like to. but they're taking every step, almost every step, almost that you can imagine to make things worse. right? that a did, i guess interrupt real quick here? can you explain to our audience? how does this approach help? ukraine does absolutely not need, but what that's the point they're making it was for everybody else has been making it was for your grand no, for over 2 years, everything they've done has just increased ukrainian sacrifice to, to bring in destruction. and of course, as onset and pulls terrible cost on russia and also to an extent on the residence

that this is across the something absolutely right. but she has to think, i don't think it's that easy to books in from all of this. talk about the trunk proving either foreign policy towards your grand 8 to your print on nato as a whole. it's actually, i'm sorry, but that's misleading of the dark forest. because the drum proves the elections. they've been not from the, from the guns, from once. the guys in power. now the other point is of course, correct. we don't know, but the collective trump is up to write the paper around to him. now, did you decide a little bit my go boards came out on the fox interview and what's a tiny bit critic good also bite and move. donald trump. juno came out on x and was much more explicit against the by that restriction did was it comes, but i still agree with you. we have heard relatively negative, so we out there to guess. but so the russians, right?

and i think one very important thing is that the rush from leadership eyes for you as good reasons, not to be too pessimistic about incoming trunk from their perspective. and that is good news for us students because it means that the russian leadership has an incentive not to let itself be lured into those very, very late few, but escalation, by the, by doing this, does, i mean the russians are looking at this to, and i see the by doing this stuff and i'll gambling for every thing they have, but they also know you say 60 days is a long time. i agree, but on the other hand, it's only 60 days, right? you get so this, you have a mountain mazda of ok in this space, george. so much can happen in 60 days. it'd be about 20 minutes. i mean, this is what makes this so dangerous right now because this really is, i mean, we use the, the met matter for a game of chicken, but this is the real quick we're in, this isn't real. it's happening in front of our mind store. oh yeah,

i think so because i think 60 days is a very long time and way and we used to say a week is a long time in politics, but it's 60 chases and all of a long time in geo politics. and, and they gave me a brush up, fails to respond properly to a series of very serious attacks on it's tara tray by nato powers. then again, rushes. these has to be a great pop. now in terms of trump, i don't know whether the russians really have any great hope. so from the have hope . so try them back in the 20162017. and i think they were very disappointed. the look of this administration that trump is put together and they going to be looking for where are the voices for pete's? i mean, trump sold himself at the beginning of the campaign, and then we have to remember this was at the beginning of the campaign when he was seeking the other path is not a nation. and he had to appeal to his basically have to appeal to maggot up really hate of this, a ukraine,

a venture. and he made all sorts of saved statements to them about bly uh, with along the neo cons, the people who could keep dragging america into was, you know, he's gonna bring this a new cream or to an end. we know that at risk level 3, this of that at the beginning, and then he kind of that will evaporate that once he was the guild denomination and then actually helped mike john speaking my johnson, to a secure with the $100000000000.00 aid package. so if you look at this trump team, you'd like to say, where is the somebody like a gun to douglas mcgregor and you'd be a voice for peace squares. uh, red grinnell. he also would probably be a voice with these um, with rand for he'd also be a voice for peace. these people, well, the uh, in uh, in the administrative people who would actually be involved in congress and making their own folks. this is all and it's on the ration f and mandates they,

he was exactly now the one person who with your point to really is unambiguously a spokesman for maga mag day is use of life when they, they a significant bit chrome didn't expect any political capital to try to save him, the people have done so he got a full for him. he didn't. so okay, so if the russians are locating and then they're going to say, well, well, you know, we didn't, if this is going to be like of the savior reruns of a of the 1st i'm, you know, yeah, he talks a good game. but when push comes to shove, he really doesn't do very much. and that's why i think that the russians, you know, it's a thinking in terms of a, well, we better hold off because i think we're going to get this up. some of the great deal with the trump, i don't think they going to do that. i think they're going to the death of websites . what's the best immediately? i think kind of the way things stand right now and things could change by the end of the day. the way things are changing. and then, you know, we could kind of this what the baby here is. a trump is going to be a hawk on russia push for this a ceasefire,

which will not happen because the russians one agree with that. um, for default to make the, um, uh, ukraine, some kind of fortress state and, but that no more funding due for an aggressive war. you know, i, i tell you that audrey can mag the world around and around what it doesn't make any sense because you know what, oh, you didn't talk to the russians about it. okay, fine. but i think that's the, the, the, the, the treadmill there on right now. i'm go ahead. i'm ok. yes, yes. the problem we, we have gas is all across about what trying to really to right. and we have really talking about 2 questions. name in our guesses and what other versions guessing? right. so if i go back to the class and the door to lots to address just now because one of those emotions guessing, i agree with someone one thing i don't think they have, who but trump and they don't expect a great deal just because trump is coming in the i agree, but i also believe they have reason to her to wait very strong responses because

they don't most of the opposite either like, located as this empiric, it's about some leadership has already made up its mind that it actually will get all the same we have nothing to expect from the trump changed. why did it actually is try back in an extreme, unrestrained man, who was the 1st attack, i'm some send to them the shuttle stone shuttle uses on russian territory by did they do that? because there was funds, the 1st responsible survey was trained, it's even possible that the rash make the fire a new quote. right. but it did even have explosive. why? it's not as big of nuclear. why it's, it's possible from the small crate that's left, that they just use kinetic warheads, which is the smallest thing you can possibly do in terms of destruction in which k m. but also teddy created a visual that was very, very old. i know that's the 2nd point, in which case we took care to have minimum destruction of maximum and demonstration effect. we don't know this yet,

but this is one possibility of what they've done. well, we don't know is to didn't strike po number, the didn't start visual spit, disney striker base in germany. they actually still active in a very restrained way, right. and then the rest of us began, i want us again. so we have actual reason to think that the rest of the district does not believe it's all the same. i agree with george. i think the re is not dream of. so don't sit there and think all the columbus going to fix as far as he's a friend. of course not. but they have reason to think. if we wait for another 60 days, we might be playing in a more advantages environment. right. and one thing the russian leadership has told us over the extent of this war and even beyond the crisis since 2014, that they're capable of long term planning very much. i'm like, oh, i see the issue is, you know, in charge of this demonstration, it showed capacity, but it didn't show intent and i think that's very interesting. but i think it's

very, it's look, it's going to be a very tedious over the next 2 months, which i'll be talking to both of you multiple times during that time is that it's kind of like being in a relationship that sub, with someone that's lost their mind because you have the, the, you have to expect the unexpected. and, and then of course, or in western audiences have never been told. is it this, from russia's perspective, this is a next suspension trip nato. this is the craven choice. that's the difference of the different sites. go ahead, george driving us. so that's a very important point because you just, if you, if you watch the common free all in the, the last few days they will this all pulled in is just the saber rattling built in is just the last spring. we need to stand off the boat and we need to make clear to both jim that you know,

we're not going to be intimidated by his saber rattling. he may have nuclear weapons. we also have nuclear weapons. this is the gist of the country. but they don't seem to appreciate that it's for russia, this is an existing show matter. they already to escalate to whatever you know, doing the nuclear weapons if necessary. and when it comes to the west, it no president, no residence since 1945 has ever said that the board is in eastern europe, the regimes in eastern europe about a vital national interest leaving on the states. and one of the is, was sacrificing americans, likes war. again, we saw a eisenhower in 1956 and hungry was the lyndon johnson in 96 a to reject. as the lack of ronald reagan. it bo lived in 1981. not one of these of the president said it is, was sacrificing american lives and to bring the planet to the point of destruction . oh, but is that what happens that when he came to cuba,

what happened in the american habits way? yes, but that most of the american president said, yes, we are ready to go all the way up to a new clear, well, what name is comment? you said that they're off the rocker. yeah, it says the method is kind of common for it is also a rock, you know, defendant jump gentlemen of the what i think is really dangerous. is that the cut ball in the, by the ministration, and they see this is the last chance to um, to contain and even break up russia and their dreams are, are in tatters right now. i think that explains as wild as for a total rate, a process in front of our eyes. it's now it's going into hope and hope dice. i guess guys 1st and last of this case, by a gentleman that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in budapest and assemble, and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. and if some remember across knuckles,

the literal ways to opponents. one struggling to proclaim the truth and the other profiting and villainy. winston churchill world war 2 now become one of the most lucifer big nato countries. you time to about 20 minutes . we sykes, hosting they to and us mandatory personnel in addition and according to opponents defense ministry statements in the next 10 years. so we'll be more than a 100 and you, us military bases and phones to fill these people of tones with the huge minutes we spend is due to the french proposed by russia.