to do is i'm designated for, she's getting those on best do what i mean. there's a push out the, the issue is nancy and welcome back to going, undergoing broadcasting and around the world from the outside to is backend this time with a country aided by nato. as strikes, caesar sanctions in the us occupation, vital energy and food regions. bush, our last side flooded the entrance. if you have damascus for asylum in moscow, even nato subsidized zalinski sent soldiers to help outright or indeed live this week. the package flag is loaded with pacific valley and the level of the one is invaded in the north killing c i a backed codes nature, one of these wireless copies of on syria and invaded from the south and destroying

supply line for palestine by 11 and nature. probably gotten a mediator up to fix chemical attacks is anxiously trying to rehabilitate approval . how many l gilani knows his real name as the president of syria, the terrorist with a tony blinking 10000000 dollar bounty on his head is already done an interview address. like you crazy guys as a landscape. the cnn, an ice is now kind of lead out. he was tortured at abu ghraib by the us facilitating american soldiers in iraq. as is genocide continues in palestine, netanyahu claims israel secured the black flags. devices flying over the ad mosque in damascus. in chicago is professor john measure, i'm a co author of these rel lobby and u. s. foreign policy. and how states pink, the rationality of foreign policy is the best, the best time. a thank so much for coming back on going underground. i guess 1st your reaction to the victory of the united states and is really neutralizing bella . science facilitates a turkey and bathing in the north israel. as i said from the south,

russia losing its military bases. presumably we can talk more about the china, the end of its belt road as far as its ports in the west to yeah, i mean is so many implications of what's going on as a result of the collapse of serious. ready it's hard to know where to start. i mean, it's quite clear that the losers in this conflict were a ran russia and has belong. there's no question it for ran. this is a big blow. ready in the sense that syria was an ally and important. now i and very importantly siri was a conduit for a rainy and weapons to get to has the law inside of lab and on. and for the time being at least that conduit has been shut down. i think the russians also lost because they were supporting syria and of course has. ready last for the reasons i just described and the winters are clear of. ready ready is real, the united states and turkey. how this all plays out moving forward is almost

impossible to say. other than it's looks like there will be considerable chaos in syria for the foreseeable future, because it's hard to see a co here in government forming in damascus. that can control the entire country, i presume you in short term success as regards the united states, i don't know when the, when the majority, another great deal of success in afghanistan against the soviets. there was celebrating, in some nature perf, attend newspapers and television. and that arguably would lead to $911.00 is a short term success in terms of the united states. and do you see the hands of a phonetic blinking state department? here, i had to be an organization of trump on the 20th of january. it is a short term success. uh, there's no question about that. uh, what happens in the long term is somewhat difficult to say,

but it is possible that as a result of what's happened in syria that are rand will acquire nuclear. ready weapons, and if a rand requires to clear weapons, that would be disastrous for israel. and it would also be disastrous for the united states and who's to say whether that will happen or not. it's also just not clear what the implications are for turkey and all of this. i think the turks believes it over throwing aside would lead to a new syria. it would be friends. ready with turkey and allowed turkey to solve a lot of his problems, especially with the kurds. but i wouldn't bet a lot of money on that. i think there's going to be a great deal of unrest in syria to the foreseeable future. and the short term victory for is for turkey will not turn out to be a positive development in the long term. so i want to, but i want to go to run in

a 2nd, but onto a case you just said, i mean how, which american weapon we did these good just groups have to attack a turkey a symmetric. we can, we expect the bombs in assembled in ankara, this christmas pace and measure it is very hard to say, i mean, they'll certainly be incentives to do that. but i'm not sure what's going to happen on that front. and in terms of timing. i mean, if the state department in the bible regime is desperate to get things moving and the chaos in place, iran, but they make a move on about the nuclear weapon because come any on rec, were present, it was on his left make. but a did they need the nuclear weapon before january, and can they produce a nuclear weapon in that sort of time? they cods, can they run or they don't need a nuclear weapon before january. i mean, is every indication that the by did ministration is as hard line on a ran as the trump administration will be. so i think what happens on january 20th

does it matter to the iranians with regard to developing a bomb? they have not made that decision yet as best we could tell, but they're all sorts of good reasons to think they, well, there's no question that they can produce enough. is i on material for a bomb in a couple weeks time, they're that close. but having this designed material is not the same as having a bomb and it, but in my opinion, take them a good year to develop a bomb and the capability to deliver that bomb. yeah, on the january 20 of that 9, it was actually saying trump is a more of the peaceful side of things, arguably then divide the ministration. so right as to get them move on, because trump would try and seek some sort of fees on like the blinking, straight up, which is what i was referring to. i mean, do oh, is it your understanding that this by the administration wants to so as much chaos as possible for trump as well?

i think there's not much question about that i think with regard to both ukraine and with regard to the middle east. what the by did ministration would like to do is law from been and get him as little into a room as possible. but i don't think they have to worry that much. i don't think the trump is gonna radically alter american foreign policy in the middle east for one second. the administration is filled with the hawks who wanna destroy or ran if they can, or at least affect regime change. and trump himself is a hawk on iran. i think of trump is going to have any effect on foreign policy. in other words, if he's going to change for an policy in any meaningful way, it will be in ukraine, not in the middle east. i think there was some hopeful people who support vladimir fusion saying perhaps it was russia taking outside out of the situation in damascus

. the so the chaos because he believes it'll blow back somehow, which will thinking, arguably as ro i actually was the wishful thinking coming out the russian foreign ministry that the to bases was safe on the mediterranean. how important to these bases and does this mean the end, the russian power in the middle east? certainly uh, in terms of um, an expression of power, the bases and talk to us and a lot takia are going well, i think there's no question that syria was important for russia for purposes of having influence in the middle east. they don't have any bases any place else and if they lose. ready spaces serious, it's hard to see where they can go. as you know, it's not clear they're going to lose the bases. and my, do you think, what do you think? i don't know. i mean, it's just impossible to say at this point in time when sees evidence that the

regime is cooperating with the russians and not interested in throwing the russians out, the new regime. and one can make an argument that the russians have an interest in state. one could also make an argument that the russians or to just cut their losses and get out because it just doesn't matter that much. i think what's happened in syria is a bigger blow to a ran than it is to russia. from russia's point of view. this is basically a side show for russia. what really matters is what's happening in ukraine. they would have preferred that to solve remain in power in syria, but it was not altogether that important to them because again, throwing their weight around in the middle east is not of great importance to the russians at this point in time. well, it's connected to brick, so the belt road initiative for china, and it is clearly uh, important that you have that mediterranean presence. i think it's somewhat

important for the russians. i don't deny that. i think all things considered the russians would prefer that side. stay in power for sure, and that they keep the bases, but i think that they lose the bases. it's not that big a deal because wielding influence bid, at least in the final analysis, is not that important to the russians. if they'd prefer that, who is dead cheap to support syria for iran and russia as compared to i agree, obviously it's more important to run which existential, i'll give you the, to a run, and that's how we were around, would see it. why didn't they pour the money into was needed to assure up the all positions rises? now guys are in syria or i think they were committed to helping syria defend itself against the h t. s. and the other groups. there is no question about that. but the problem they

faced is that syria was incapable of defending itself, and there were just limits to, with both the radiance and the russians could do. there's all sorts of evidence the russians and your radians were talking to a side about the problems in his military and the need to fix the military. and the need to reach some sort of accommodation with early on at turkey and with the rebels to head off this problem. and it's also quite clear that they were doing what they could to provide assistance once the conflicts started. but the fact is that the syrian military was so hollowed out, it was. so we did, it just couldn't stand up, came a rebels for kaylee. they were giving as much money as your generous us a public money. and the benefactors, your us tax payers were giving way more money so much money that ukraine was able, able to send the soldiers directly to train the guy to people according to the what

i need both money is not the issue here. i mean, just go back to the vietnam war, we gave huge amounts of money and huge amounts of equipment to the south vietnamese military, much more cells in the soviets or the chinese gave to the north vietnamese. but the fact is, the south vietnamese military was an incompetent military. and when the north vietnamese attacked in 1975, the south vietnamese military quickly collapse. and this is an analogous situation . the syrian army was simply incapable of standing up to the rebels. it collapsed almost overnight. the russians tried to help. there were wagner forces in there, the russians were using their air force. but if the syrians are not going to put up a flight, there's not much the russians can do, or not much the uranium can do. and you might say, well, why didn't they try to fix this problem beforehand? and my problem is the, my point is there's a lot of evidence that they were trying to fix the problem. they were warning

a saw that he had to do something. they had this problem off at the past, but they couldn't make any progress with his side. he was a remarkably stubborn and foolish man and yet, and as a result, he's now sitting in moscow and his country is occupied by the rambles proposal. mash, i'm or i'll stop you the law from the university of chicago scholar after this break the during world war 2, the germans with the help of the show. the creation revolutionary movement that the independent state of croatia transported. hundreds of people have no way to work in force, labor camps. the germans wanted the work force to build roads and the infrastructure

in norway. so when they couldn't get enough prisoners from serbia, they contacted through social and the install of these camps to you had the death rate up to a to percentage which is actually higher done in the ultimate, among the, with dozens of children moist did the georgia evo, it but not the not clear below go to the coast to this or what should the at the school that'd be good to to this is a goodness. interesting, good. not say that they had the horrible conditions except from the t lease. many people died from surveys, hunger as diseases, very few made it back home was to some of the 2 of the, the true knowledge of drove a day or 9 mozy, but, you know, and that process and this is the goal 0. the welcome back to going underground. i was still here with professor of political

science with university of chicago. john nash, i'm a president bush, i me you were telling me about how stubborn aside was in the syria, but sanctions on syria were clearly important. although historically they've never worked us sanctions. they obviously have worked on russia. they had their work in cuba, venezuela. their work on north korea has been you need a us troop presence like, occupying the energy fields that it added to the sanctions for it to make an impact . what do you think this means for us sanctions? the fact that they successfully destroyed syria using sanctions as well. it was not just sanctions destroyed, syria. i mean there were a number. ready of other key factors that play as well. uh, 1st of all that. ready just a huge amount of corruption by almost all accounts inside of the serious military. furthermore, there were these oil fields out in the eastern part of syria that before the

war produced about $400000000000.00 in revenue. and what happened. ready is that the americans and the kurtz basically. ready took over those oil fields and the amount of money that the syrians are getting from those were getting from those oil fields has been remarkably reduced. so they didn't have a lot of they did that much of an economy at home. the sanctions were all know there was a great deal. ready of corruption, and as a result of the army was hollowed out. and what we have seen happen in the past few weeks, is it that army collapse because it was hollowed out. so can we expect a turkey costs our gas pipeline to compete with us? sell in g coming to your above to the north stream was destroyed?

is this actually not so good for the united states in terms of uh, uh, geo political realignment in this region. financially, it's very hard to say, i'm just not sure what's going to happen on that front. there just so many questions that are open here that are hard to answer it. this is just another one of those. why do you think of the state department? they would just blank, i mean they're always blank faces of those press conferences, but the $10000000.00 bounty is still on the website that the us state department of doing the blinking. so what i can get $10000000.00 of i tell you will government to information about i have to kill july any whatever his real name is you're, you're asking me, am i surprised that that's up there? i am surprised that they haven't taken it down. i mean, it's quite clear that the administration and the mainstream media in the united states is doing everything they can to clean up out of july and portray him

as a changed man to make him look like he's now thomas jefferson and no longer an advocate operative so the fact that they've left that off on the website is somewhat surprising. what do you think? go through the heads of old as john list on the news rooms on the coal face that your broadcast is and your big newspapers. knowing full well. the pictures coming through on social media of judge is being destroyed. half is outsides. most of liam being destroyed. and executions and the isis flags all across syria. i will go through the i think i think it, most of them are not going to be surprised at all. have you it's just not surprising. we basically to, we're locked in with a number of l k to and isis offered tips and they won and

they have scores to settle it. sorry, i started a job and they keep telling the public in the united states. i know the united states more interested in uh, united healthcare. so you can play, but certainly in the information in western europe on uses. know this guy's good, and look how terrible asset was, what a torture he was. is it going down to move a didn't exist? what goes to the hands of the child listening full? well, they must know who the ice is outside the people that killed american soldiers. yeah, of course. i mean these journalists understand full well. most americans understand full well, there's all sorts of this course uh, you know, in the media here on this very issue that the united states is supporting a terrace and that the terrorists or the rebels call them what you want have one. but i think when you ask what's going through their head, i mean,

it's pretty simple. everybody knows the basic story here. as you know, a lot of people say that us policy is about creating chaos. actually, they need to be the president, very tray, a country i'll give you the most sanctioned in the world. and he said it was all about k us. i know you being predicting the defeat for the land scan ukraine, but you don't think that the, there's some of the state department do believe at least create as much chaos as i think it was a number of another so many b2xb from the united states as part of 50000000000 g 7 loan paid by interest, unfrozen, rushing people's money to kill russian soldiers. how well do you think the chaos is going in georgia? romania moved over as a by john wayne blinking his go. all seeing eyes here. is it incredibly competent, the state department? i don't think the american policy is to create chaos in places like ukraine or, or in places like syria. i think what we were interested in in syria was regime change

. we wanted to get rid of a side, and we thought that we could put in place the government that would be friendly to the united states and most importantly, friendly to israel. i think the united states believes that chaos and syria would not work to our advantage, and it would not work. israel's advantage with regard to ukraine. i think our basic goal there was to deal the russians a severe blow to defeat them on the battlefield in ukraine. we can rush it to the point where it was not that of the ranks of the great powers. i don't believe that we wanted to purposely. so k us and ukraine and effectively rec, ukraine. i don't think that was the goal. one could argue that the end result is that we're wrecking ukraine. that's been my argument all along. and one could argue that the end result of what we're doing in syria is to create chaos. but that's not

the same thing and saying that that was the intended goal to start with. it's just a way of saying that the united states because of its bone headed policies, often times does end up creating chaos, which is at odds with what it wants to do. so they actually believed that they could defeat brushing. i think there's no question that they believe that good deceit, bruship. i think if you look at how the ukranian military performed on the battle field in 2022, that was when the war started, the war started in february 2022. if you look at how the ukranian military performed on the battlefield leave, you look at the fact that the russians in the summer, late summer, early fall re treated from the western part of your son and retreated from heart keys. and also if you look at the fact that the west or the united states especially thought that sanctions would bring the russians to

their knees, the west concluded, based on those 2 factors that it could deal russia a devastating blow. that seems ridiculous. now when you think about what's happened in 20232024, where we are at today. but if you go back to late 2022. it looked like we were in excellent shape. it looked like the sanctions might work. and also it looked like the ukrainians were doing very well on the battlefield. and it was all sorts of talked about how incompetent the russian army was. so that led us to believe that we could actually defeat the russ. you'd never believe that the professor at this point all through it like i did. and obviously they, there was a note listing to you. but now of course i, infamously, when the boots inside the new doctrine was changing as regards nuclear weapons. uh, i think one of your papers could have been sold to biggest deal times with the

business, the washington post that it was just a yawn in the state of 500. when these a new ideas of the use of nuclear weapons were emerging from moscow. well, is prison going to do as these a new longer range weapons are increasingly being engaged against russia as well? you wouldn't remember that there's 2 goals here. one is to win the war in ukraine, and number 2 is to make sure that the conflict doesn't escalate into world war 3. has a deep seated interest in defeating ukraine. and it also has a deep seated interest in avoiding nuclear war. so i don't believe the pool is likely to use nuclear weapons unless he is in a position where it looks like russia is going to lose the war in ukraine. but that's not going to happen. so i think that there's little chance at this point in

time that the rush, it will use nuclear weapons, but there's no question that the russians understand that they're facing the next a central threat in ukraine. and there is no doubt that the russians understand that the united states has its cross hairs on russia. and that's not gonna change even when donald trump comes into power. so as a consequence, the russians are sending a very clear signal that if the americans push too far and they do back rush it into a corner, they should fully understand that russia has lowered the nuclear threshold. which means that it is likely to use nuclear weapons if it's in that situation except russia keeps talking about the new hypersonic. uh, ms. uh, and are we talking literally about this christmas, really? because the head of trump senior organization, trump, who is said, i mean, as you say, he's going to do all these old civil war with roger. but the drum says he's going to change policy. so it's all about the next 3 weeks. and russia has to come up

with some strategy and some responses on how to reply to increasing provocation avoided by blinking jake sullivan and the rest of them literally in the next 3 weeks. it's all gonna happen now. but the problem is, these prob occasions are, are not that significant. it's not like these a tac homes that ukraine is firing at russia or having a major impact on the course of the war. they're just not. so there's no questions . the russians have to retaliate, and it has to be a forceful retaliation against any use of a tac them's or storm shadows, or what have you. but the russians don't have to do too much. they certainly don't have to use nuclear weapons. and what's gonna happen here is that in a few weeks, we're going to have a new government. and we'll see what happens then. and just finally,

how soon can we expect the blow back for these policies are the, by the era of simple or the guys outside are in syria of means that lensky is supporting with american weapons. the ice is all kinds of elements in syria, all these years, 4 years of foreign policy, billions of dollars of your public money. how soon of the blow back and we felt in uh, in the mainland united states with a symmetric warfare. i was i said to you before, it's just impossible to say with any certainty when we should expect flow back. first of all, we just don't know exactly how things are going to play out in syria. but furthermore, we find it very difficult to guess as to when the blow back will take place. i think there's going to be significant ball back. i think there will be significant blow back for what's happening in gaza. many people around the world think that the

united states has completed the genocide. they think that germany in west europe more generally is complicit in genocide. and one can hypothesize all sorts of plausible scenarios where you get blow back there. so i think the potential for a blow back in the west as a result of what's been happening in the middle east since october 7th is huge, but predicting exactly when that will happen and what it will look like is upset the site impossible for us to draw immeasurable, thank you. you're more than welcome. that's it for the show. continued condolences to those surviving u. k. u. s. u, i'm genocide here in this region where we back on monday with the legendary pink floyd trunk. ben roger was and you'll then keep in touch by the social media and it's not expensive. we'll country and have to our child going undergrads. if you remember to come to watch new and old episodes, i'm going undergrad. see i'm under the

the the activity for college students feel them. uh, mostly, strongly zip leslie's new. yes. inferior. you know, you know, i'm assuming these people don't lose some of the no, no go commercial bushes swimming

cause us both of them. if i give us to be a senior citizen all over the phone with the she knew what she needs to for. as the news from ford must feed into the water visited with the it's much element as was various, gives this little pretty much really to me squares the with cream and then you'd have glass here to senior for us to bring a bunch of us here. she's going to get upset, so thank you for asking before, but the color supplementing of. i'm wondering just get old sample of mute on the virginia, but i don't really do too much too much to do to get i see a total credit on it that way. i can sign it at all but.