i should, i must see why she may be so had a big deal to come in as soon as if there's just said awesome, yeah, the welcome. good prospect, bull horns were all things are considered on people about elections have consequences? well, at least they should been coming from administration. looks a lot like the outgoing bite and administration when it comes to ukraine. also went to romania, georgia, and the have in common. the answer is they are on the regime change menu to discuss these issues and more of joined by my guess, jordan, samuel in budapest. he's a pod cast where the gamble, which can be found on youtube and locals, and assembled across the techniques are a lot of he is a historian and political commentator, or a gentleman cross that rules and effective means can jump anytime you want. and i

always appreciate it. well, let's kick it off with george and in budapest, you know, georgia is the, the closer we get to a knowledge and ration day. when the more we hear from the trump administer a trumpet transition team. it sounds more and more like a continuity of biden's foreign policy. i mean, it was particularly when it comes to ukraine. as matter fact, i've kind of pointed it's the ukranian exception may be because the thing is it's just a baby. so there's an enormous amount of continuity, and we'll talk about some of the, the cast of characters of the. so the surrounded himself with the i have to say like i said in the beginning of the program, elections have consequences. but it doesn't seem like it comes to these consequential elections are reflected in personnel policy men anyway, go ahead george. hey, i agree with you b sir. and um, when, when, when the consider is, what was the recent uh, pronouncements of the president elect from um, it's very much the case. so let's just say continue with the, with the,

by the station and maybe even a little bit more. all the nato leaders who have spoken to trump in recent weeks since the, his election victory a little said, i'm very confident the trump will continue with this policy chunk of the show just a few days ago and spoke to him as well. yeah, i think he's good to continue with this policy. and then there was a recent article in the financial time says that word, trump intends to maintain the same levels of the outreach, maintain the levels of the aid to ukraine as the a by them is vision. and then on top of that, he wants the nato member states to increase the defense spending to 5 percent of the g. d p. now was that would suggest the trump. and i think what was known about this is that he is very much within the washington consensus show when he is

running for office. you know, is he's basing those that those billy with, within the republican party there is indeed a very strong, non interventionist. let's focus on america of wing. any place to that? with one see is the ones who is one of the nomination once he is in office, the kind of a, a band and all that and a low, he has these things like, well, i think we're going to withdrawal from the world health organization. you know, maybe withdrawal from the united nations and you know, this is stuff that goes well because the washington consensus, he hates any kind of restrictions on us policy. but fundamentally, he maintains the, the status quote, being washington, he did that during his 1st of it was low integration with the intensive break it down. yeah, typically it's kind of interesting because what we attached to donald trump, since we've known him almost a decade now in public politics. it's amazing when you think about it. he didn't

start any new wars and that's true. but he seems to be cho and stone ending a war. and i think that this is something that he's gonna fall short of the. the biggest problem here is it is, it seems like it's a one way conversation we keep hearing about cease fire is and delayed nato membership. but nobody's consulting the russians with this bible hasn't talked to a podium. i'm blank, blank and it hasn't talked a lot profit. well, it's about and beyond a prisoner exchanges over the last few years. me rushing isn't in lieu. how can you end to come like the one party in the conflict? isn't in the look. go ahead and then i assembled me but i, i would have to thoughts on, on this a so right. one is, um look this is i think the 20th 21st of of december. right. any 2nd 22nd to i'd say them already. oh my god. so close to christmas. so look that we have not

even a month until the end of duration, right? this is the 20th of january, and i c o 4 and speak to and george, absolutely. and you may very, but it'd be right in the end. but i do think that we don't know yet, and we really know sometime in the screen, we can only begin to really know off the phone. so you know, gratian serve reason and spies is not yet to be something you can fully assess. now to the individual plans, your 1st look, the black shows and brought to a router or whatever, you know, they have an embed bias. they have an interest to title, avail audiences that everything is fine. it's cool and nothing bad as we the huffman and sort of the landscape, by the way, right. so that evidence doesn't take us that far. i take your point that we haven't yet gotten from from is clear seeing that. so he's really going to do it.

but he promised, namely that's not talk about 24 hours, it's a see my but namely make peace quickly. and in essence, we all understand by increasing pressure finally on kids and taking this sort of veto power away from kids. the whole best word has to be at wolf, if russia in directly, and only kids alone can decide when that stops. that's maybe the same situation that we've been living with for many years right now. i personally am still more optimistic then the 2 of you seem to be, i admit that i think it's possible that we still see major movement on the ending the war. now this one second point that i would like to bring his intending i'd stop. because if you're right, it just costs a book and trump then you know, terms of so on a wrong turn it into to, to black to move the other natal members into paying more. and then continue u. s. military or financial support for ukraine or both. then of course,

trump is in for bay, but surprise, because then russia, if you keep fight and the outcome will be even worse for ukraine and the rest in the act, a cool, i mean, george a again, you know, um, ending the war. let's say we have to meet with you, we're, we're, we're gall fanatics about words this program ending the works. how can, how would that be different than rush? it has to surrender. i mean, it is, i think this is the same mindset. yeah, the war will come to an end when russian surrenders, i think that's with help. that's the real deal. i can't see. i'm given the people that it has around which from given his 1st administration, tim can see that they can think of it differently. george, i don't think so big goes and this is what goes like what i was saying about the worst thing are you agree or disagree with though i, i agree completely with the assessment that i've given. that's really the level of

washington. this is pretty much a bipartisan, but for a few got a maga, america, 1st those among the house republican conference, the washington consensus is russia of the bad guys rush. it needs to be stop booted in is uh is another hipaa. and um, anything that can, that can seem to be a um, a victory for hipaa, which means victory for potent risk would be a total of disaster. and it has to be avoid that. another company is known as these know, he knows his constrains and you know, and we saw in the, the, uh, the last week when uh, you know, he was just dealing with his own, uh, republican quote, cuz i'm on the, on a budget or a mazda, despite the fact that he is just the one this massive of election victory. they just open to define him, but just refuse to do what do you want them to do? and you can see the same thing is going to have

a new phone both and there is even stronger. the opposition to him is even stronger . so if he were to do and you would have to do, you have to be braving this. i mean for him because ultimate building is to reset. the only way this comes to an end is it tells the landscape the jig is up. there's no more money. we're not going to do this. um, you know, you, you do have to sit down to the table and work something out with, with boats in, on the basis of, of what's going on on the lines of right now. not on something, you know. so you're ready to go think now from this isn't the way thinking along those lines and is that is made clear that he intends to maintain that washington. that says is that when you look up, leave the people that he is pick i, it's hard to disown anyone the go would be the opposite. who would say to him? look, you know, it's, it's time to bring this to him in. on the contrary, these old people walking on the same page as the by the ministration. yeah,

this has been very good. i mean, even the last thing was they are releasing the any restraints on the use of the attack comes, you know, his own people said yeah we, we, we agree with this. well, as i am so upset though, i don't, but the people around him said, yeah, buddy guy, do you know teddy again? words mad or any um to ended. conflict is one thing, but to achieve peace is another and that's another disconnected we come from the discourse, not only from the transition team, but from the what is famously called the foreign policy blog. words do man, go ahead, studied. mm. yeah, look um i, i totally agree they, they acted sebring peace in the functions of the word and that this is over. nobody is going to start again the ukrainians as well, but accept the results for the future. unlimited. and then one can actually believe this moment, economic relations and so on. but you know,

all parties concerned that i think is, is extremely difficult. i totally agree. now, however, it is to, i believe, is edited as possible. and as i said before, after long history is that you and stop fighting this out to getting to that sort of peace, that is a place that looks like that, right? so to, to return to that question, put the ad to manage, to stop fighting. i don't quite agree that there are no people around trump who defend from the bye didn't consensus, which i think told should have laid out very, very but, and it's all, it's fanaticism and simpleminded. missouri opposite the right there. but look at a time. see gilbert director of intelligence, the j. d. barnes. yes, i know the vice president is just the vice president, but even if you look like he's kind of the designated ukraine. and boy kellogg is very complicated. i think i'm big of us and then google and figure out at this point, right then that comes we've talked about this before. it goes back to the paper,

you publish to the fleets of freight, whether we're talking about what one could do, and which must be a combination of all we really want to talk to russian, take them seriously. but we also want to as the on even more, right, and we've cut out, you can never apply to. you has condemned. and i think this contempt is too too much, but the, it has spoken against the summation of to results. but she didn't have to do that. and i think that um the, the house on the other hand repeated stupid assessments of breast as lost as well. you don't know, does he actually believes that or is he trying to make up again, the points we don't know yet, but i do think that, you know, if your argument is that these people think executive of ways that the best buy to miss the thing, right? i guess, i guess we are coming from, but i don't quite agree. i think they are a bit different. but i agree with you. yeah. but i mean, if i say it, because i might, you know, again, they may be, it's, it's splicing words here. i mean,

the rhetoric can be slightly different. i agree with new york, but the outcome in the policy is not significantly different. it at the end of the day, tell them that i'm going to jump in here and we're going to go to a break. and after that break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stay with r t. the

the this is for digital rest of traces to operate. it didn't don't pass under the orders of ukrainians. special services. the hands are staying with a load of hundreds of people who are the neighbors in the towns and villages of john bass. beach was problem is money in a career and ukraine security service in case of failure, they were guaranteed st. you in ukraine. however, today's reality for them is jail time for many years. the outcome of working for you crying the enemy is up to 20 years in prison for terrorism and espionage

the, the, the welcome back across that bullhorn to are all things are considered on peter la bell. here we're discussing some real news and i'm going to go to take on this one. i come up with a phrase originating change menu and a currently on the menu, the seasons menu, we have a romania, moldova, and georgia. without, you know, keeping my hands here, do you like that phrase regime change menu? go ahead. yes. unfortunately, i think it's a back up for it is because the, you know, that's what happens in the west and what happens between most of washington, libya to call the shots on this as on everything. and you know, busing, things clients are bad. so they have these, these,

these seasons that certain states sort of slow to, well having that was even change happen. and sometimes who got a surprise, which is like say, you know, which was the heart of that surprise in many ways. i thing. but they did conduct a did you change something really and, and unfortunately it succeeded. now. um, i believe if you ask me about this particular menu model of uh, ukraine, georgia, i think you mentioned dried and ukraine of course. and especially the case because they have to sort of solidify the redeem change they've already done. right. so if you look at the 2 cases, whether you still want to have it was even changed oregon mode over to solidify it, remain yourself pause romania, georgia. the model, the i think george's already losing, frankly, i think i, i understand that the solemn is over, but it's really still holding on that the us still sending a name signal, but i think drugs as they have already lost. i think joy rumania,

they have unfortunately one and 2 bit of the continuing and i think one really yeah, but i think, i mean what, what do you mean by winning they, they get their way. but to me and that, that, i mean, to that stay why mean is dubious? yeah, of course it started, but absolutely what happened in georgia is a cool, i mean, even the door to bella bits, you know, is extremely this information based on thing. different, they admit that the evidence that the constitution i'm caught in romania used to the knowledge the whole election wasn't leveretts' feelings. the, the work of the secret service was sloppy and unprofessional. even they admit that . and the worst thing about this is as of if i may say that that they're already beginning to use it as a precedent. the cover president of romania, i'm calling you on this i think has been tools that reason to big you had meeting in brussels. it's and he basically told them, you know, what, the, what the english revise socco sort of influence which is called off for we have no

evidence at all. right? there's a strength of sizing, and we stopped it. and you know about the next case is going to be, you told them it's going to be drum and that you have to be very careful. so we are now in this world. we have them making a claim that as soon as the intelligent surfaces say something you can basically forget about elections. and one last point, this is of course what people wanted to do to trump in 2010 or 2016. but i'm getting confused to 2010, but i think with them it was all yeah, yeah. like that anyway. yeah, yeah. but this, this was the whole idea of the original or russia gates of us, of age scenario. right. right. to metal goals and to meet and assess the intelligence community. so i believe that was a theory has decided this is the proper proceed how everything was wrong. and then we can talk to the prize of them in america and for it. fortunately, it didn't work. but the still on the same sort of trajectory that trying to train

us into accepting that. but ultimately it wasn't loaded and said even people. yeah, let me throw it to just one word we haven't mentioned in this part of the program is democracy e o space. and then we see democracy subverted laughter in different ways. obviously in moldova disenfranchising, hundreds of thousands of voters in the diaspora and it was all, it is called good, okay. even though the mold opens in the west and you have the asper and were able to vote in multiple places, they did, they ask for, in russia were denied. and that essentially, but teddy cuz oh right, i mean on this menu here, there's a winner and lease is where speaking now and it's georgia. romania is probably the most. it's problematic one because it's in the club. and now you have, you know, brussels a j new flat thing to that, teddy, cuz absolutely right now the, the elections in germany well being are, we can't prove it. and i just said, so they, i just feel there was something wrong. we've got to cancel it. george popular said,

that's exactly right because what happens is now in the west is whenever the election results don't go your way. and that's it could be kind of, he didn't go mean many places you. so a russia and then of course the next step is where, okay, well, what's your evidence that russia, in defeat and rough effect, the, the election outcome? well, we don't have any evidence, but that doesn't mean that the russian didn't interest it. and that was the effect stated by a romanian press. then your highness said, yeah, well, we know the rushing to fit in the remaining and election, but it's very hard to find any evidence because the russians are so coming. and so circle in and d b is that we don't have the evidence. so it really does raise the, the interesting philosophical question. if a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a noise? and that's the view within uh, within view and nato land, which is, well,

just because there's no evidence of russian interference. does that mean that there was no russian interest here? and so, and now this, this is what the you and they do it and they have to concern themselves because you've talked about the 3 countries that are on the regime change menu, but they're going to be more elections of 2025 elections in bo, gary elections in the czech republic, and therefore we know that the whole of our route is going to go into action because they can't guarantee these election vickers any. what they know perfectly well that they stole the election in mo, though, it just as, as you said, the people leave the, the, the ask for a, in a russia was unable to vote and says, even the final outcomes was very close. then the question that they've had, they've been able to vote then you know, bias on do what have lost. and so, and then this now is what we, what have they operating now i agree with you. it does look like they have

prevailed in uh, in georgia. i live in georgia. uh huh. obviously they have imposed quite a lot of experience already with the regime change. and so they, they, they've managed sofa to hold fun. but this, this really is how they go they, they offer it to you because ultimately they, the consensus that they represent, you know, will the most up on the line and kaya carlos and the rest of it just there on know by, as we get with it within the u. s. oh yeah, it's interesting read very soviet attendance outlook because you know absolutely existing socialism. you can now reverse from it even if it's a one way direction and they have the same kind of it's a bolshevik mentality and their belief system and how the app are out there is new to reinforce it and then also to attend it because i think it's really important government, if you know the default position, is it russian interference. but in,

in plain sight it's e u interference left behind it. or, i mean there's it in the cafe. so these capital city use the legs the oh, the do very specific things, like in the case of georgia, for instance, the essentially threatened georgian voted reversing via downgrading of the visa possibilities. so it doesn't look very clear case of black managing the mosse of the population. really into a certain bolting decision, right. the other thing is that i wanted to add this, i think draft supervisors, something sort of like the list of the, from the learning progression. you've talked for it, right? you can do it in the tube, can put some kind of get out, but it's even worse because you can't even discuss this done. but the camp inside actually means this is interesting because the georgia dream. thank you. will go school in in romania. they both actually have stressed that they don't really want to break this. they do you that in reality it go that's caused by explicit about

this. what he wants is and it caused relationship where he can preserve remaining national interest. now, george and 3 and very much the same statements and they both believe it, but you can argue about what these governments and parties indeed us understand, but national interest, but that's always the case. so what you have to know from the you who's not only is that you must stay here, it's really defined what is here. and there's only one way it's. it was a lot from the line kaya color in the event. and also lurking always in the background, george for these countries that were mentioning romania, moldova, in georgia, is what's going on in ukraine, and that's on smoking sort. it is and smoke. and then of course it gives you the case of a goal. 3, they're very close to where the action is. so the most belligerent rhetoric is coming from those countries that are far away from the action. so the british

goldman is the most belly cose. but then, you know, a long way from the action. you know, then you go to go, goldman assuming in a, in, in the bene, looks, you know, they're also very built. it goes and, but when you get to romania and romania, this is a bit, a hub, transferring weapon rate into ukraine. that's it. that's a very serious business because if they with the war is the grain escalates, it becomes a serious um world between russia and nato. romania is going to be in the front line of the actual same goes a little hungry. and so the lawn care. so when you look at the, the map is the countries that are really very, very close. and we know that if there's a rule, we get covered badly. the other ones were saying, look, knock it off. this is a really bad i do. and therefore, they're the ones who get have to get punished and it goes victor or bomb of hunger a. i mean, he's permanently in the process that pull,

that's what i'm trying to promote. opponents of his and i think the barrel beta is an interesting case because the legal part is there have a problem on their hands because they they said we're going to hold the new elections. um, but if a whole new elections then joe jessica is going to win. i mean to like like trump, if you try to make sure he doesn't when he's going to come back and he's going to be stronger than ever and remaining, and ortho or differently. you need to know this, and so what are the going to do? well, the only thing they can do is ultimate is just tell him you've gone wrong, you know, they just keep them off the ballot because otherwise they're back to where they saw the so that the, you need to have a lot of problems on their hands. and ultimately, as with breast you have is, well, you can do is remove them from file and put them in prison because there's no, no other remedy. you know, it's very interesting gentlemen, actually remember after the break zip vote in 2016 and all of these up ads and

editorials that one particularly stands out in mind. the economists, we have too much democracy. there's too much democracy in, in the western world. on that obviously the, the meaning of that is that if you give people the, the, the last thing people have in the west, they'll get you taken everything away from. you've shuddered that middle class, one thing they have, the left is the franchise. and they're going to start and they are taking away the lead from them as well. the beacon of democracy is no longer the west. maybe it never was or a gentleman that's all the time. we have a one, i think, my guess in budapest and, and assemble. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are to see you next time. remember, rest of the

the, the magenta itself, the gaining independence and from the law firm of the ivory coast remained under the strong influence of his foam and metropolitan pro french president. felix, who said one year, ruled the country for 33 years, ensuring the interest the from the government dean isn't in the trunk. then there's no simple new foster. larry says that goods was done to song and the more appropriate after the death of, of a one year, a new lead to bill. i'll go back the ball came to power reset and i'm ready to

double open for example. yeah, curious to know if we're picking up from the was it isn't good enough for us if you need to. one is the one that buses into the bronze immediately deemed good luck. boeing, enemy, a deep political crisis ensued. the walk a, the country 2nd largest city, turned into a theater of was looking for more than anything to do on the road. as of what this how did the dramatic events unfold and how is block a recovering from? he is a bloody conflict. watch on. see the, the news

this is for digital rest of tray to to operate. it didn't don't pass under the orders of ukrainians. special services the, the hands are staying with a load of hundreds of people who are the neighbors in the towns and villages have done bass d h was promised money and a career and ukraine security service. in case of failure, they will guarantee its thing to in ukraine. however, today's reality for them is jail time for many years. the outcome of working for ukraine, the enemy is up to 20 years in prison for terrorism, and that's been us the results. so again and extend the way and as long as she to causal.