the, the hello and welcome to worlds. a part of the middle east has always been a land of fast shifting sands. but over the last couple of weeks, the jo, political landscape of the region has changed so much that it wouldn't be main stakeholders seem to have been caught unawares. who is winning, who's losing as for how long will to discuss it. i'm now joined by correct me, right. a former breeders diplomat. this in mary is great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much for inviting me. now. i bet it's hard to surprise us, susan diplomat, especially given the so many up he was in the region over the last couple of years in the last couple of decades. but i think even by the current spenders of

unpredictability, the passing here has been pretend dramatic for the middle eastern region. what surprised what strikes you the most about the, the year 2024, sits being spectacular, and disastrous. and of course the, the continual under code we submitted us, the guest is the, the genocide which is ongoing and in gaza. and it's become so cold in place for become so accustomed to seeing images of, of dead children and destroyed hospitals and torture doctors the device of danger. we lose sight of having multiple that isn't how, how terrible it is. but that's just kind of don't steadly. i decided it myself to go i so i wanted to try to get into a goal, so there's no way to do. it's probably probably the permission to get into the west bank. and let me get permission to me as a means to have to give you permission to pass through. so i went out to lebanon

a couple of months ago, to cover the war in lebanon. and then of course, city a dropped it. so if it's any of a moving targets in terms of what's happening across the middle east, at the moment, we're really much of them at least as a place. let me focus on the uh, on the rounds in syria for the time being because of the future of that state is put down certain um, with israel and tour kit expanding their hold on a serious surgery on many intelligence services across the entire region. and perhaps around the world a trying to figure out where things are likely to move from here on a blogs. there are also lots of atrocities happening there as well. uh, what's your take, what's your intention on how the future of this land, the future of this country is likely to evolve by saying we are in for

a prolonged period off of war. um, we had the most extraordinary coalition of power was combined to pull the current government into pilot. and in city of we have over stay on the face of this. we have to create the united states and israel, all of whom were, were very involved and have been involved loan to been promoting these particular do you have just a kite the prices on those levels and, but then we have of course, also the gulf states capital in particular, which have been funding them long term as well. and we've seen this extraordinary of companies to get a hold of apparently defending interest. steve. the tax wants to be able to attack the goods in this area and also to take to, to the goals and take effective control of

a level which they've done. the americans of puddling complex with the to accept the codes because the americans have been busting the codes. but the american primary aim is to maintain control over the oil fields of city of the north and east, which they have achieved. israel has taken a great deal more land, but the land which israel has occupied in cities. but in the last couple of weeks, it is 3 times the size of the gaza strip is to put it into context. and the gulf states of, of the deductible they wanted, which is a extreme select for so many governments in city which will flew. we will see become increasingly until event as the days go by. but mr. murray, isn't that also what's paradoxical about this whole situation there, old norman, the allies, but they all have in huge appetites and yet each of them achieving something for itself. uh, put them sort of on the uh, the longer hats with the own allies,

for example, cherry k on saudi arabia or turk, in the united states. now, lots impacted one by one. i want to start with the, with the american and west of interest. and i, i somewhat surprisingly noticed that the west and media for now have been a rather restraint than the commentary i part from perhaps trying to re brand tie up to create i shawn, a bony speed or to hide his group as a sort of cause i see that what we're going to zation a cnn around a very formally looking interview with that later, boom will come out of delani, talking about the inclusion building of institutions and overall adopting this political western language. what do you make of this re branding dressing? it's all center and what they're saying is the tries to achieve think there's a certain authenticity could pin, but i think the western powers have good and small number of leaders of the

movements of july and the himself, of course being the oldest one who are willing to act as west and carpets in exchange for power and who quite possibly is personally, but willing not to adult the kind of extreme violence. islam is totally just agenda, but he, he was following when he was with outside the nicest. it's perfectly possible the tea himself didn't exchange for high load and welts and all of those things has dropped is a deal, a j. i'm just taking a different path but with us, the 10s of thousands of this. many of them we goes and respects and tensions, and base because acts and there is other nationalities who followed him into damascus loop. you know, consists of is fighting forced well,

whether they are willing to jump on 60 minutes. let us the agenda is a very different question. indeed, as far as russia is concerned, i think this is a very pressing see security challenge, according to some estimates, up to 30 percent or higher create options. fighters are professional, decide is they come from central asia and, you know, they don't have any particular allegiance to political power transition in syria there and just there for hire. plus, as we all know, they're also tens of thousands of former. i says fighters held in jails under curtis control and it's been syria. so if all of that force guest lose, i think ok, that's some point may, may indeed seem like a moderate organization. and it is inexplicable to it to the russians that the lease is that kind of force not considered a threat. them the west is there believe that they can somehow be controlled or we

dictated. the lesson should understand it better than anybody. because of course, this was the western played book about drawing, progressing okey pace, nebraska and the stuff on the west impacts wires against the west. these certainly with london bombings and 911 and oh, you know all the other consequences. so, you know, it's hard for the russians to believe that there was the memories so sure that there must be some sort of a plan. well, the list very seldom learns the history of the united kingdom, for example. because now when they did ask amazon full times in history and it's being defeated at the time, but it doesn't stop and doing it some time to time. but it's loving from history is not, it is not a strong points of a, of west impala placement. and this little boom and i'm going to play it. it's going to lead to a revival of interest in the extreme islamic fanaticism in of islamic terrorism. and i think the well con,

i'm pretty certain of thumb, you know, speaking to my own, my diplomatic contacts, that the west problem. certainly the business plan, which they would've been given by the americans, is the, the, the immediate idea will be to target these most them days and exchange. you had this whole new rock to send them into vaux to take on the sierra melisha and which bill they support the comments about the government and, but essentially they, they will look to the purpose them introduce starting the big the rockies civil law in order to take a sort of a control, the rock that i'm to get somebody to city fund my guess is as a and they are liable to want to stick together as

a fighting force. and i'm leasing them on see a militia in iraq would seem to me the, the, the wave of the west will seek to dissipate the energies if you like, to then use them in that way, which is still helpful to us that interests because of the cost of the reality of policies i've been trying with that success to beside the united states military to leave the rock for some time. the funds so payoffs into rock hope to see medical ministry peasants though. uh huh. now you've been following the situation and galvan, and of course the collapse of the syrian government has many implications for the conflict there. and because syria was used as the main logistical corner door for house and other a pull this thing, infections. and i remember the house on the thrall of the former secretary general of his buller saying before he was assassinated by israel. but without syria there

would be no palestine. what do you think is likely to happen both to the palestinian aspirations of the palestinian teacher that is born out of those frustrated aspirations? i think you must be said the full halt sylvia is a disaster for the the access of resistance to whose they put put call them to use terminology, the supply lines to hezbollah. uh, effectively. because all the time we shouldn't forget the, the, uh, the people who and i have the government to attend damascus above the absolute independence of hezbollah and helping fighting the principal. and if i touch the be located by is so well, is the sheltering them in the shadow of the goal on heights when they were defeated by gosh, and say they tend to sit in a civil war and they were with cook disagreements, relocate to don't know if to, to a blip,

but his beloved paid paid to they lots of posts and mood defeats and besides, so bass will and enemies of husband most of the time, sworn enemies. i've been wrong. so there is no way they're going to a live the continued supply a pub homes to city a to, to has been off. tell me wrong. and it's worth noting, but one of the very 1st may just statements make biofuel on the off to who took power was to say that the enemies of his beloved underground no israel. uh so this, this is an isabel send it, this is effectively design is government said i'm from in so much of what's happening is crazy and but know some of it by side by says i'll try to. but so i have this, the government may sound strange, but on the other hand, people should ask themselves why it is, but i says on those, uh, okay, the never ever ones in the history a tax is a little any, is a, the interest they've been sponsored by is there a little from day one,

but mr. mary, uh, i do repeat my question though. what do you think that leaves uh the palestinian aspirations of statehood and you know, all the harsh feelings associated with not being treated as human beings. i think, you know, sadly of the genocide in casa is, so that's an advanced stage. nobody really knows how many of the population have died, but there's no longer be able to start to, to support lifestyle, play in, in gaza. and i think we will see a, the is very nice month to be, i'm exec, some of cause it's barely quite soon. but in the west bank, people live on the palestinian, the polity, which i never thought i would see is somebody who, you know, used to support the thought to that's i'm, i'm, i, i never thought i would say, but publish student the policy become open, leave a tool as well, but that's what has become the case of that planing as low as 2 state solution

bends, but the candle be up to the state. so there's some, there's not enough left to form a signal state. garza is demolished, but the westbank has seen the settlements every day. settlements expand in the west bank. the man to the west bank on the effective colour, stadium control is a minority of the area under the sink. some things, some sinks and things like a water is also is neither cold to land on the posting and control sink. i'm frank, country, stupid, slim similarly is increasingly occupied. so the, the idea of a 2 state solution is that, let's focus here on this very sobering note, but to go back to the discussion in a few moments. but for now, we have to take a short break states and the

russian states never as tight as one of the most sense community best. most all sense of the in the 6595 and speed you what else calls question about this? even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on russia to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube. the question, did you say stephen twist, which is the

welcome back to world the parts with correct me right. as former british diplomats, mr. mary, before the break, we talked a lot about israel. the cool for now seems to be the main beneficiary of what's happening in syria. there have been some estimates that up to 80 percent of serious military infrastructure has been destroyed on the israeli tanks and out positions within the the 18 kilometers of the syrian capital on me. all know what israel takes, it rarely returns. do you think it will stop there or do you think it would go perhaps further? because i've heard some is real officials now opened them using about the mass cause being part of a supposedly great israel. what do you think it will stop really hard to see where it will stop? because it's very hard to say, well, consult them. the problem is nobody in the immediate region has any kind of a defense against is from wild be. is there any um,

it has proven to be pretty effective and in grounds going back to in southern lebanon. the example of fits ability to just pound countries into submission to make their supplies as close by the united states and germany is on talented. and that's what we saw in the lab, and then it's not just in city of israel. family has no intention of leaving those pups of southern lebanon. that is, talk you buying up and we'll, what am i sent to expand the the, the in the new. yeah. i think people have to understand the, the, the great to is the project is better, you build it. it's not a concept. it spelled a bill and both of us were being telling people to buy to you know, and i've seen that deadline just in real time with the expansion into garza, into syria, into lebanon's land. and the world has to decide whether it's prepared to put up

with this the, the aggressive colonialist expansionist power, which has a cause to assist bassist dawson because that's what, that's what we face in the middle east. and it's very, very scary at the moment because the western world seems lines to the dangers of functioning. so such an extreme, a deal of this is all right. let me play the devil's advocate for a moment because i do agree with your characterization of his really politics and policies and he had the part of me when i look at what, what's happening in the region. then the old age had a sports moving around them, the fears that many christian and um, you know, other minorities in the region have done part of me sort of understands why some of them would appeal to israel for some sort of a protector. it, do you think it makes sense for israel to try to be the guardian of those

communities is more of them. humanitarian then on your cynical, jo, political purposes, a big store. they set a goal because i've, i've been tooling around southern level and then visiting churches and schools and other institutions, increasing villages, which is val has boned and destroyed quite deliberately and, but so that israel has one time, the southern community, many existing communities in southern 11 and i visited one church is l boned killing 15 gallons workers who were using the church as a temporary headquarters during the emergency and who were killed that on investigate. so it didn't cause of course we have seen israel destroy churches routine. me. i'm just starting hospitals of non breakfast in china to some so the, the idea of israel has any sympathy for christy. i'm gonna tell you always and $0.90 a a possible spencer. the both the christian communities is,

is nonsense. and i would say i and 11, and i lived for 2 months in, inside one of the existing communities in lebanon. and only if i, 10 to 15 percent of the christian minority in lebanon, i would take the view, but they support is among christians in lebanon. the vast majority of them to test as to what is ellis is doing. but all the hist for historic reasons, the pockets of the starting point, fast to fax us to christie and organizations which do support is uh, but they, they up in no sense a representative of the majority of the kristi and population. now there is another and no man, no american ally who is it seem to expand as greatness in syria. and i'm of course, talking about turkey, which uh, you know, who is,

officials are now openly discussing a lot for being a part of a oh that greater country. um, do you think now is a good moment for the church to try to make the political fantasies the reality? most of us have been the, the really taking the back by the open expensive. there's a lot of both the tax and the extent to which it is um has so much of a pretending have you if you liked because he had done so much uh, apparently blood work in promoting the color stinging cause, but the exact polls put it as uh, in the background all the time. uh, he was quoting, took a expansion into syria. i don't imagine we will see any formal annexation of, of city and land by turkey. both we will see, i think,

continued took his minutes ago to basement defacto until of hope, the level and the great deal more of a north by, by to ok. i doesn't, you're going away any time soon. when i see all this competition for great, there is a real or great, i tricky part of me sort of um its frozen because uh, i think it will be recent conflicts have told great powers that they have to be extremely careful about the, you know, biding what they can to and i think that's one of the reasons you don't see the russian army and marching on key for beef because it doesn't want to deal with that kind of a situation. this is one of the reasons why perhaps iran and russia pulled back and didn't stand to defend the assad government. um, do you think both israel and turkey have the resources, the military resources which are strategic resources, the sol, spyware, resources, to not only occupied the land, but a deal with big consequences of occupation,

and hopefully bring some sort of a settlement lasting piece to those plans he certainly has the military ability to do so. um, but the cost base, a big deal of a resentment among kind of people's got the idea of being built again by the took. so who are in the say the full may imperial power. they may try to, they will certainly try to occupy as much public curtis populate to touch as late as like a israel. so will never been p. c. israel is a snow supremacist, all village, joseph tempest, a states which has as many they respected organizations have pointed, i just found it on, on the principle of, of pot side to them. and it only knows violence and the guy. so the great what it is, but what does collapse and it is close to them. so we are, we, i'm not seeing an extreme solace to government extolled it, installed in,

in damascus. we're seeing israel dropping off to $0.10, attempting to live peacefully with the palestinians. and instead of being intent upon the extermination of this stuff, by some months of a lodge, a billy joseph chemist spent so wait, hold of a sentence and a multi ethnic city and multi religious multi so me know, societies of object beyond us. it in the, in the middle east, and as soon as you alluded to earlier, the existing community is which solving whole just come in just in q. and this is in the well, which are with some fitness the on and say the originator. they are the ones that great to stand just on current develop. now i think the hi renee of this whole situation is that there is also another 3rd group of another in the american allies of western allies like saudi arabia and the united arab emirates. it's a cool,

i know the very excited about seeing syria being divided between israel on one hand, on turkey, on its moslem brotherhood. proxies. on the other hand, do you think washington or west more generally, can still be an effective med mediator among all its allies and there are competing appetites. it's always very difficult to to understand the motivations of the gulf states. um, on the one hand you have the religious motivation for him in which style, very keen to say sony is love and particularly so i have fits on that as i'm and what happens in the day. oh and, and that because some of such a pulmonology of interest in this, in this case with the post on the hook types in the, in the city or on the other hand of those countries, the old, the governed by using a late,

which i'm not very popular with that on public comes out dependent upon united states, military support and security. so the support handling is a security service support in order to stay impala against the own. the people, the so the, the business continual balance go on and it's moving a late step. the interest is in personal, finance, javascript. so, but any kind of the global jo strategy. so you've come to consider the of the gulf states in terms of normal politics. the, they are very, very strange entities. i only have time for one more question. uh, my perception i placed is that russia, china, a number of other countries, a sort of pulling back and letting regional actors resolve this global, perhaps letting the united states deal with all its, uh, competing allies. and the,

i wonder if you think that's an exception because we want to use to the other way around, you know, re powers intervening. trying to, you know, expand their influence as russia deep, let's say in 20122013. and later on, do you think that's the way your politics will be practice from now on, you know, region know, uh after is having a free hand that doing whatever they want to do, or do you think great powers will come back to the table and try to observe the influence in some shape or form. thank you. i think it's a great mistake. i understand the process of cost p occupied with your trade that hyundai, spending a pretty, it's major. there's also a particular military. there's also isn't in u. k. a, china has always avoid that involvement in, in conflict, away from it shows, but i think china and russia, it's to be more involved in the making of

a dangerous mistake by not being more involved. but if you listen to any of this occurred to cancel debates, calling the fundamental least over the last few months. it's with chinese engrossing delegates, so to speak, the most sense, china and also so there may be cooling that call on the spot in trying to in particular should be existing. it's muscle not particularly like a normal muscle to both countries, particularly united states. so of which kind of holds emilia. killian's hope, the united states that to behaving the more responsible way. because otherwise, there really isn't this, but this could go definitely out of hand and possibly into nuclear war. so. so i'd love to see china and russia be more associates and didn't post a mythology on the situation. well, mr. marie, i guess we will have to wait and see what the next year will bring in terms of the great power involvement. then there joe political responsibilities, but for now we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your

analysis. thank you very much. and thank you for watching hope this hearing young on was a part of the the there was widely thought the year 2024 would be to multi was suspended was however, in ways few had predicted the world did change in this ear though hardly for the better, what are the highlights and low lights?

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