with really much of the middle east as a place. uh huh. let me focus on the uh, on the brands in syria for the time being because in the future of that state is pretty on certain um with israel and tour k expanding their hold on. uh, 0 surgery um, many intelligent services across the entire region and perhaps around the world are trying to figure out where things are likely to move from here on a block. there also lots of atrocities happening there as well. what's your take, what's your intention on how the future of this land, the future of this country is likely to evolve? i think we are in for a prolonged period off of war. um we had the most extraordinary coalition of power was combined. so to pull the current government into pilot and in city of we have over stay on the face of this. we have to, okay,

it'd be united states and israel, all of whom were, were very involved and have been involved loan to been promoting these particular do you have just a tied to by says on those levels. and but then we have of course, also at the gulf states catalog in particular, we feel being funding them along to those well. and we've seen this extraordinary of coming together, old, old apparently differed in interest space. the tucks wants to be able to attack the goods in this area and also to take to, to the goals and take effective control of a level which they've done. the americans, uh, putting complex with a to accept the codes because the americans have been busting the codes. but the american primary aim is to maintain control over the oil fields of city and the north and east, which they have a jeep. israel has taken a great deal more land,

but the land which israel has occupied in syria the symbol last couple of weeks. it is 3 times the size of the gaza strip is to put it into context and the gulf states of, of the deductible. if they wanted, which is a extreme select for so many government in city of which we will close, we will see become increasingly until events as the days go by. but mr. murray isn't that also? what's paradoxical about this whole situation there, old norman, the allies, but they all have in huge appetites, and yet each of them achieving something for itself. uh, put them sort of on the, uh, the longer has with, with that own allies, for example, tricky on saudi arabia or turkey in the united states. now, lots of packet one by one. i want to start with the, with the american and western interest. and i, i somewhat surprisingly noticed that the west and media for now have been rather

restrained in that commentary. i part from perhaps trying to re brown and tie up to create. i saw a bony seat or just had his group as a sort of quads. i see that what we're going to zation a cnn around a very formally looking interview with that later. boom. well, how about that of delani? talking about the inclusion building of institutions and overall adopting this political western language. what do you make of this re branding dressing? it's all center. and what they're saying is the tries to achieve. think there's a certain authenticity, pruitt pin that i think the western colors have good and small number of leaders of the movements of children to himself. of course, being the biggest one who are willing to act as west and carpets in exchange for power and who quite possibly is personally, but willing not to adult. the kind of extreme violent

islam is totally just agenda. but he, he was following when he was with outside the nicest, it's perfectly possible the tea himself didn't exchange for high load and wealth and all of those things has dropped as a deal to j. i'm just taking a different path. but with us, the 10s of thousands of this, many of them we goes and goes back some texans and based on the carfax and there is other nationalities who followed him into damascus loop. you know, consists of, is fighting forced. well, whether they are willing to drop them 60 minutes, let us the agenda is a very different question. indeed. as far as russia is concerned, i think this is a very pressing see security challenge, according to some estimates up to 30 percent of hire,

create some fighters are professional decide is they come from central asia and you know, they don't have any particular allegiance to political power transition in syria there and just there for hire. and plus, as we all know, they're also tens of thousands of former. i says fighters held in jails under curtis control in eastern syria. so if all of that force guest lose, i think ok, that's some point may, may this seem like a moderate organization and it is inexplicable to it to the russians that the lease is that kind of force not considered a threat. them the west is there. believe that they can somehow be controlled or we indicated that some should understand it better than anybody. because of course, this was the western played book about drawing, progressing, occupation of afghanistan, the west impacts wires against the west beach or leave it london bombings and 911 and all, you know, all the consequences. so, you know,

it's hard for the russians to believe that there was the memories so sure that there must be some sort of a plan list. very seldom loans. the history of the united kingdom, for example, does not when they did ask amazon full times in history, and it's being defeated at the time, but it doesn't stop and doing it some time to time. but loving from history is not 6 is not so strong points of a, of west impala placement, and this will do it. and i'm going to play it. it's going to lead to a revival of interest in the extreme islamic fanaticism in of islamic terrorism. and i think be, well, i'm pretty certain. so, you know, speaking to my own, my diplomatic contacts that the west prime you. certainly the business plan, which they will have been given by the americans, is the, the,

the immediate idea will be to target these most them days and exchange. you have this whole new rock to send them into vaux to take on the sheer melisha and which bill they support the comments about the government and, but essentially they, they will look to the purpose them into the starting the big the rockies civil war in order to take the so the control of the rock that i'm to get somebody to city fund, my guess is as a and they are liable to want to stick together as a fighting force. and i'm leasing them on see a militia in iraq would seem to me the uh, the wave of the west will seek to dissipate the energies if you like to, and then use them in the way which is still helpful to us. that invests because of

the cost of the reality of policies i've been trying with i've success the, beside the united states military to leave the rock for some time. the funds so payoffs into a rock hope to see medical administrative cousins though. now you've been following the situation, i'm galvan, and of course the collapse of the syrian government has many implications for the conflict there. and because syria was used as the main logistical corner door for her mouse and other a pull this thing, infections. and i remember the house on the through all of the former secretary general of his bowler, saying before he was assassinated by israel. but without syria, there would be no palestine. what do you think is likely to happen both to the palestinian aspirations of the palestinian teacher that is born out of those frustrated aspirations. but think you must be said, but the full halt. cynthia is

a disaster for the the access of the systems to whose they put call into use to the knowledge that the supply lines to hezbollah uh, selectively. because all the time we shouldn't forget the, the uh, the people who and i have the government to attend damascus of the absolute limits of hezbollah and having fighting the hezbollah. and if i touch the be located by is so well, isabel was sheltering them in the shadow of the go along heights of when they were defeated by russia and city, a decision of civil war. and they were with took disagreements we looked at. don't know if to, to a blip, but his beloved paid paid to the lots posts and move defeats and besides, so bass will anatomies of his one of us a good time sworn enemies. i've been wrong. so there is no way they're going to a live the continued supply called homes to city a tub to has the loss telling me wrong. and it's worth noting,

but one of the very 1st major statements made biofuel on the off to who took power was to say that the enemies his beloved underground no is though. uh so this, this is an isabel said it, this is effectively designed, this government says i'm farming so much of what's happening is crazy. and i know some of from the by side by says out trying to but so i have this, the government may sound strange, but on the other hand, people should ask themselves why it is. but i says on those, uh okay, the never ever ones in the history a tax is very little any is a the interest they've been sponsored by is there a little from day one, but mr. mary, uh i do repeat my question though, what they're saying that leaves uh the palestinian aspirations of statehood and you know, all the harsh feelings associated with the not being treated as human beings. i think, you know, sadly of the genocide in gaza is. so that's an advanced stage,

nobody really knows how many of the population have died, but there's no longer be able to start to, to support lifestyle, play in, in gaza. and i think we will see the, the is very nice month to be, i'm in say some of gaza that barely quite soon. but in the west bank, people live on the palestinian, the polity, which i never thought i would see it was somebody who, you know, used to support the thought to that's i'm, i'm, i, i never thought i would say propose student ability become open, leave a tool as well, but that's what has become the case of that planing is those 2 state solution bends, but the cannot be up to the state. so there's some, there's not enough list to for a city and state. garza is demolished, but the west bank has seen the settlements every day. settlements expand in the

west bank. the amount of the west bank on the effective color sting in control is a minority of the area under the sink. some think some sinks and things like a water is also is negative, cold to land on the posting and controls. thing can drink from countries through this lump similarly is increasingly occupied. so the, the idea of a 2 state solution is that let's focus here on this very sobering note, but to go back to the discussion in a few moments. but for now we have to take a short break section. the

the the the welcome back to world the park. this brack me right. a former british diplomats. mr. murray before the break. we talked a lot about israel. the who for now seems to be the main beneficiary of what's happening in syria. there have been some estimates that up to 80 percent of serious

military infrastructure has been destroyed on the israeli tanks and out positions within the the 18 kilometers of the syrian capital on me. all know what the israel takes, it rarely returns. do you think it will stop there or do you think it would go perhaps further? because i've heard some is real officials now open, amusing about the mass because being part of a, supposedly great israel. what do you think it will stop really hard to see where it will stop because it's very hard to say, well, consult them. the problem is nobody in the immediate region has any kind of a defense against is a wild be? is there any um, it has proven to be pretty effective and in grounds going back in southern lebanon, the example of fins ability to just found countries in the us of mason told me to supply just close by the united states and germany is on talented

and that's what we saw in the lab, and then it's not just in city of israel. family has no intention of leaving those pups of southern lebanon. that is, talk you buying up and will almost sent. they expand the, the, the in the new. yeah. i think people have to understand, but the, the great to is the project is better. you build it. it's not a concept. it spelled a bill. and those of us who've been telling people to buy to do that. and i've seen that deadline has been real time wave, but explained some into garza, into syria, into lebanon's. and, and the world has to decide whether it's prepared to put up with this, the aggressive colonialist expansionist power, which has a cost as far as is bassist dopson, because that's what, that's what we're facing, the middle east. and it's very,

very scary at the moment because the western world seems lines to the dangers of both sitting so such an extreme a deal of this is all right. let me play the devil's advocate for a moment because i do agree with your characterization of his really politics and policies. and he had the part of me when i look at what, what's happening in the region. and then the old page had a sports moving around them, the fears that many christian and um, you know, other minorities in the region have done part of me sort of understands why some of them would appeal to israel for some sort of a protector. it, do you think it makes sense for israel to try to be the guardian of those communities is more of them. humanitarian then on your cynical, jo, political purposes, a big store. they set a goal because a bunch of being tooling around, southern lebanon, and visiting churches and schools, and other institutions,

increasing villages, which is val has boned and destroyed quite deliberately and but so israel has one time, the southern committee, many christian communities in 711 and i visited one church, is l boned coming 1500 ones workers who were using the church as a temporary headquarters during the emergency and who were killed that on investigate. so it didn't garza, of course, we have seen israel destroy churches routine. me. i'm just starting hospitals of non breakfast in china to some so the idea of israel has any sympathy for christy. i'm gonna tell you always and $0.90 a, a possible sponsor the both the christian communities as, as long as and i would say i and 11, and i lived for 2 months in, inside one of the existing communities in lebanon, and nearby 10 to 15 percent of the christian minority in lebanon,

i would take the view, but they support is among christians in lebanon. the vast majority of them to test as to what is l is, is doing. but all the hist for historic reasons, the pockets of starting to the fax, the fax is kristi and organizations which do support as well. but they, they up in no sense a representative of the majority of the kristi and population. now there is another and no man, no american ally who is it seem to expand as greatness in syria. and i'm of course, talking about turkey, which uh, you know, who is, officials are now openly discussing a lot for being a part of a oh that greater country. um, do you think now is a good moment for the church to try to make the political fantasies the reality? most of us have been the but really taking the back by the open

expansionism of both the tax and the extent to which it is um has so much of a pretending have you the paper he liked because he had done so much uh, apparently work in promoting the color sting and goals, but the exact polls put it as the in the background all the time. but he was quoting, took his expansion into syria. i don't imagine we will see any formal annexation of, of city inland by turkey. both we will see, i think, continued took his minutes ago to basement defacto until of hope, the level and a great deal more of a north by. but i took a i doesn't, you're going away any time soon. when i see all this competition for great, there is a real or great, i tricky part of me sort of um its frozen because uh,

i think it will be recent conflicts have told great powers that they have to be extremely careful about the, you know, biding what they can to and i think that's one of the reasons you don't see the russian army and marching on key for beef because it doesn't want to deal with that kind of a situation. this is one of the reasons why perhaps iran and russia pulled back and didn't stand to defend the assad government. do you think both israel and turkey have the resources, the military resources which are strategic resources, the soft power resources to not only occupied the land, but a deal with the consequences of occupation and hopefully bring some sort of a settlement or lasting piece to those plans he certainly has the military ability to do so. um, but the cost, but it's a big deal of a resentment alongside of people's got the idea of being billed again by the took

so who are in the say to full mate, imperial power, they may try to they will certainly try to occupy as much of the code is populated, touch as late as they can is fail. so will never been p. c is the or is a snow supremacist, the village, joseph tempest. a states which has, as many, they respected organizations have pointed, i just found it on, on the principle of, of, of pots side to them. and it only knows violence and, and do guy some degree what it is. but what does collapse and it is close to them? so we are, we, i'm not seeing an extreme self this to government extolled it, installed in, in damascus. we're seeing israel dropping alter $0.10, attempting to live peacefully with the palestinians. and instead of being intent upon the extermination of this stuff, this month of allowed to build a joseph chemist spent. so they cultivation

and a multi ethnic city and multi religious multi so me know, societies of j beyond us, it in the, in the middle east. and as soon as you alluded to earlier, the existing community is which solving will just come in just in q. and this is in the well which are with some fitness, the young and say originated, they are the ones that greatest. and just on kind of developed now i think the hi renee of this whole situation is that there is also another 3rd group of another in the american allies of western allies like saudi arabia and the united arab emirates. it's a cool, i know it's a very excited about seeing syria being divided between israel on one hand, on turkey, on its moslem brother who with proxies. on the other hand, do you think washington or west more generally, can still be an effective med mediator among all its allies and there are competing

appetites. it's always very difficult to you understand the motivations of the gulf states. um, on the one hand you have the religious motivation in which they are very keen to say sony is love and particularly so i hope that some of those women what have isn't they? oh, and that because some of such a pulmonology of interest in this, in this case with the post on the hook types in the, in the city or on the other hand of those countries, the old, the governed by using a leads which i'm not very popular with that on public comes out dependence upon united states, military support and security. so the support handling is a security service support in order to stay and pilot against their own people

so that the business is continual balance going on. and as moving a lead, split the interest as in personal finance, javascript. so, but any kind of the global jo strategy. so you've come to consider the of the gulf states in terms of normal politics the but they are very, very strange entities. i only have time for one more question. uh, my perception i placed is that russia, china, a number of other countries are sort of pulling back and letting regional actors resolve this global, perhaps letting the united states deal with all its, uh, competing allies. and the, i wonder if you think that's an exception because we want to use to the other way around, you know, re powers intervening. trying to, you know, expand their influence as russia deep, let's say in 20122013. and later on,

do you think that's the way your politics will be practice from now on, you know, region know, uh after is having a free hand then doing whatever they want to do, or do you think great powers will come back to the table and try to observe the influence in some shape or form. thank you. i think it's a great mistake. i understand the size of cost p occupied with your trade, that hyundai spending a pretty major. there's also particular military. there's also isn't in u. k, but china has always avoid that involvement in, in conflict away from it shows. but i think china and russia needs to be more involved in the making of a dangerous mistake by not being more involved. but if you listen to any business cruelty council debates, calling the fundamentalist over the last few months, it's the chinese engrossing delegates who would speak the most sense. china and

also so there may be cooling that power on the quality until and in particular should be existing. it's muscle not particularly like a normal muscle to false countries, particularly the united states. so of which kind of holds emilia trillions. hope united states that up to behaving the more responsible way because otherwise, there really is a disc, biscuits go definitely out of hand and possibly into a nuclear war setting. so i'd love to see china and russia be more associate and didn't post a mythology on the situation. well, mr. marie, i guess we will have to wait and see what the next year will bring in terms of the grades, power involvement. then there joe political responsibilities, but for now we have to leave it there. thank you very much for sharing your analysis. thank you very much and thank you for watching hope this hearing young on was a part of the

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