are in helping you frame, helping get their message out to us because who's pulling the strings and who is profiting the the hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered time peter level as the year ends, the incoming trump administration continues to believe it can end the conflict in ukraine. trump and his people are beginning to understand ending this conflict is more difficult than starting

a war. the problem is moscow to have and washington want different outcomes. the cross section ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, carla nixon in washington. he's a political analyst and radio host in pittsburgh. we have jim cabinet. he is a political analyst and, and certainly you have drago positive t as i do politically. military analysts are gentlemen cross lock rolls in effect, that means you can jump any time you want and i always appreciate it. let's go to a drag out 1st. and serbia, i'm a one glimmer of light, so it coming out of the incoming trump administration is keith kelly. general keith kelly is old. is the cold war by the way. so he's got a lot of experience or he's antiquated, we will find out as we move forward here. he says that trump does not want a settlement to collapse like the 2014 minutes agreements. when i read that i was kind of like, well we so you know, is what the minister agreements are. that's

a good starting point for this here because most people talk to you about this complex. i have no idea what i meant. what are you talking about? at least he's aware of it. i'm not sure what he thinks it means. so that's are jumping off point on the trumpet administration, claiming it can in this conflict, which i've been very dubious of ever since the present. the legs claimed he could do that, go ahead. drago as well. i mean, it is it's, it's very, um it's, i think it's a good thing that he knows what dimension agreements are in place. he's not saying it was done. you know, to the, by time for the key regime as was the case with the previous western leaders, particularly the former president of france, a long and former chancellor, germany mircle. so who's, who actually said that only that it was with just the roost to get the russians, you know, to, to give the trains enough time to prepare for the war as. so this is good.

obviously, we can expect from to actually end the war. and in 2 days or 24 hours, i can't remember exactly how much time he said he would. it would take care for him to do that. but it's certainly a good message to the world because we've seen that the current administration is essentially pushing us into the global disaster. and the fact that he does want, that is certainly refreshing because, you know, if you have a country with 5000 nuclear weapons in another country with nearly 6000, you want to make sure that they are at peace. and where this is not what we're getting from the current administration, which keeps escalating tensions with russia and doing things that would make other countries respond directly. but of course, the russian leadership understands to the, the ways of its responsibility. and this is the sole reason why it hasn't responded directly, even though it has the capability to do that. so certainly a good message due to the world, and i'm not sure how successful truck will be,

but it's, it's a better start than what we have now. well, garland, i mean, going back to the men sca comments that uh, general kelly made mean since he brought it up. shouldn't he be aware that it was actually a fraud on the part of the west as drago is just told us? i mean, the, the importance of bringing that up is that the russians, they had the men's process. they had a very short process after the complex started in minutes. that around is stem bull . so, i mean, we got minutes, one minutes to we got a bill rose and, and then we have this symbol. i mean, there's that, that's 4 times 4 times, you know, that's for going to the rodeo 4 times. and they were all frauds. i mean, we watch the russians believe the 5th one is going to be true. darwin. yeah, i think what the, the, the, the trump administration understands what's going on. and the dynamics here in the, in the, in the hurdles they're going to run up against. and, and the reason i say that is because then i would recommend any of our listeners to

go read the opposite. that was written by r f k junior. and donald trump, donald trump son donald trump junior, and it was in political when the hill. and if you look at that, you'll see that they have a pretty deep understanding of the situation. and i think that their problem is not going to be with the russians. the russians are fairly reasonable for their problem is going to be with the blog here in washington. the i c, n m. i 6 the rest of the ed with the, the neo nazis in ukraine, the other sides willing to make a deal that these lunatics are going to be doing. you know, god only knows what to stop. donald trump would say that that's, i'm glad the garland brought that up because yeah, i'm, i'm on the face of it. i think going to go because the russians have made it clear the terms and conditions of negotiates. it's been, that's well known, i think. and we go back of june of this year were present, improved and made it very clear point by point here. but the garland does right, jim, is that it's gonna be uh, sabotage within washington, within brussels,

within the u. k. to not allow any kind of process to move forward. jim, your thoughts as well? yes, i think it's kind of wishful thinking to take the think that donald trump is kind of some kind of deep seated anti war peacenik. he's not, you know, he's a dedicated american exceptional list. he's going around. so i'm talking about putting you over that kind of mark analogy and, uh, you know, kellogg, keith kellogg. i think he said his name was kelly, but keith kellogg is general that he's going to send us a representative to rush you about this. you know, he put forward a plan on this and the plan was we're going to intimidate everybody. we're going to go in and tell them printing after have peace, have peace talks or we're going to stop reading them. i'm going to tell the russians you have to have a ceasefire in line to contact them or we're going to. so we're going to up, all right, do you print? so i still think, i do not believe that donald trump or the people he's, he's, these are pointing is ministration or are any less american exceptional, if they believe they can intimidate people,

they believe they can intimidate russia. and this is a meet the, the, not the number of the problem, but certainly even if donald trump himself has, and he does have you goes back and forth on this. and the last person he talked to, as we're saying, the deep state, the blog, the nato countries, the european countries, the conditions of, of ending this war that russia is going to accept our conditions that are a clear victory for russia can be hidden. and what they want to do is try and find some way to get russia to a, you know, to give something up on that not really do with your electricity with, with, with yeah, yeah, but, but jim, there's, there's a way around it. i think i've kind of solve this puzzle here. that's why we're calling it the ukranian puzzle here. i'm gonna go ahead, go back to drag o. is it words, matt, or phrases matter? what we should, you know, it shouldn't be who is going to be victorious. the ukrainians, victorious the russians, victories nato. victoria's,

that's the wrong way of looking at it. way to look at it and i'm addressing. so what jim just said, here is peace. how do we bring peace back for everyone? now that is a way out for everyone involved. trump doesn't want to be the guy that last ukraine . we all know that mantra, but he couldn't. we, i brought peace to europe. that's the winning ticket. drago. yeah, i think this is what the sermon is. your lago says it's about shared european security, so if we have a you know, victors and losers, then we're off to the 2nd cold war. and as that's the given, there is no way to avoid it. if we are talking about the cost and confrontation, there's also the freezing of the conflict would also be terrible. because at what point, why are we going to freeze the conflict? also, if we're, if we freeze the conflict, are we going to have like a korea solution? because in that case, the russians, the russians will actually be the losing side because neither would still be

assuming and sharing the goal, which is in the northeast of ukraine. and a missile would take 2 or 3 minutes to reach moscow from the area. so again, this would be a strategic defeat for russia. so there's no way that the russian would ever accept any sort of a freezing of the conflict of any of that sword. on the other hand, we or the russian also wants to be careful about not making nato looks like it last because then this would galvanize nato and they would essentially bring any, even more of these extremists and an expansionist empower in the alliance. so russia certainly wants to make sure that there's no new iron curtain of any time the russian wants to, you know, re establish connections with you and the best buy toys is that some very optimistic here. i would like to agree that you are right. i'd like to think that way, but garland when this complet comes to an end and none of us know how it's going to come to an end, it won't be really over. ok, the sanctions will not come to an end. and it will be a new type of comp, like

a rum state from ukraine. i don't really know. okay. but the problem is if you're not looking to create peace, then all of these other problems will faster. that's why i started the program out with means it'd be don't to address what was wrong there were it's just going to continue under a different name. garland. yeah, well, part of that is, but i'm glad you said that because we were part of a understanding how this conflict in is understanding that the ukraine project is not necessarily about. and crane ukraine is a political slash and military tool that used to what do we kind rushed to so they can go after china and go after everybody. this is a tool for world domination. and if you the question, i think that the blogs going to have internally as well, can we not win on this one and still get world domination? so understanding that they are looking for world domination. the individual eagles think receives of this, um, a fine think

a way out of this have to be viewed in the context of request to move the world. yeah. but garland this we spoke or before the recording here. i mean, what does it mean there? when you use the word had gemini, as indivisible. i mean, either your hedge a monic or you're not. i mean, and that's the quandary. washington in the western world, just put itself in garlic when one more thing. and that's it, and here's the important part. what the trump people have on their side is that the majority of the people in the united states agree with them. the majority of the people in europe went to return to a time when they had some level of economic prosperity. so while he will have a battle with the people in power who are trying to med fascist ideology, what these strength you will have is that. but people will be saying, yeah, this is what we want. get it done. and the people in europe now, well retired. okay. do economic growth? absolutely. now there are casualty of the ukraine pot uh project gym democracy just because the people want it, the people in your,

in europe don't want this war. the people in america don't want this war, but i thought the election said consequences apparently not, jim. know certainly not in france, certainly on the brand. yeah. everybody elected another government? no, no, we're not going to do that. literally came out and said we can't let elections, we trip, but elections determine what we're going to do. so this is a situation or a now, and that's what i say, you know, to whatever words we want to use it, i think the garland is right about, you know, the project of america is not to have peace in europe, is to have domination of the world and, and wherever in words we, we get a little we can avoid the word victory or as much as we want, but everybody's going to see it. and they've been saying that the european spa, especially have been are the b. i may get a hold to that, thought jim, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with all the

take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power, tired vision with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few. fractured images, presented as fuss can you see through their illusion going underground? can the russian states never i've side as i'm one of the most sense community best. most all sun set up the, in the 65 to 5 must be the one else calls question about this,

even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on russia to day and split the ortiz phone next. even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube, the senior said this was the question. did you say steven twist, which is the welcome back across stock? were all things are considered on peter roosevelt's remind you were discussing ukraine? the okay, when it go back to jim jim in pittsburgh. unfortunately i had to cut you off. we

had to go to a break. but what you were saying is very interesting. and again, going back to the word had gemini, it either you have it or you don't, and that is the dilemma. the west is created for itself. and it's a bi partisan issue in the us. the elections don't have consequences when it comes to empire here. but that's a craven choice on the part of the west. russia wants security. and does it want victory? i suppose so, but they wants security. they want and security admin skill wanted security in december 21. it wants security. now that is never changed. but for the west, they need a strategic defeat of russia, which russia is denying. and that's the dilemma jim. well, i was going to say, look, when they invoke means, i think what they want to do is meant 3 or meant for i think they think they can get the russians to go along with the fact that on the basis of oh, that was biting support that was there for we'll be really good guys, we'll keep our word this time. you know, and i think you,

i agree with you. i agree with i, i, that's what they're going to go for. i agree. and unless they get that, if, if russia ends up with the for less than premiere and neutralize nato, everybody's going to know who won whatever word they went. they use they use or not, and the europeans for free is up and say, we cannot allow that to happen or it's a loss. yeah, i see but, but, but, but, but jim, that is get an idea of logical choice. ok. it's not a real list choice. i mean, you know, i was a trained to story and up until 1945 great powers. sometimes what a war sometimes said loss. okay, that's what you know. and that's what happened here. everything is x, essentially. it's b o it's, it's joseph burrell, in the garden. the garden is going to die. is that okay? with this whole mentality is cooling the garden. okay, i'm going way off rails here. ok, drago, which change gears here and be realistic about it. we can talk all we want about keith kelly and his initiative, maybe he'll meet with putin blah, blah,

blah. who cares? but the russians are winning. they're moving forward. you can talk all about drums plan. but what if the russian to say, we're not really interested? we're going to keep going into we do not define demilitarize, which was the goal. so, i mean, is this a lot of empty talk? go ahead drago. no, no, certainly not. the reality on the battlefield says that's, that's precisely what's going to happen. just in the last 40 hours, the russians took a 100 kilometers square kilometers in the territory in the design. yeah, it's almost so what we see is there is a russian military dominance and especially in artillery and these long range assistance. i just want to point out that the rushes have approximately 7 to 10 percent tend to towards one in terms of artillery dominance and all data on military conflicts. in the last 200 years show that 80 percent of soldiers died to artillery. so just on just that fact alone should give you the idea of the casualty ratio of the training and the russian side. so this is unsustainable for the,

for the ukraine's is assembled for nato because the frames are doing all the dying . but this, even, even nato cannot sustain this in terms of, of industrial warfare. and this is where russia also has a massive advantage anything to the only the increase in the, in the foreseeable future, especially when the deliveries of north koreans are to resistance and munitions. so this is not going to change, you can only use that, can be exacerbated for nato sports. it's going to be better for russia, you know, garland, what i hope for in all of this is a strategic defeat for nato. because nato is the problem here. they knew we used to have the indivisibility of security. i don't know what happened to the west. that was part of the helsinki process in the 1970s. everybody knew it. everybody agreed to it. they have to go back to it. and if they have to experience a strategic defeat then, so be garland. one of the things we have issues we have here is that nato and the

people who run in are at war with the people of their own countries. they are at odds with the people of their own countries. they are fighting them off and trying to stop them from getting what they want. i would suspect at some point, and this is a strong possibility. it donald trump says that the russians, all right, you made this offer. i'll take it, that sounds good. let's try to go with that. the ukranian say, oh no, we can't take that the. my 6 is of the world. say, no, we can take that. and donald trump at that point says okay, you guys will handle it, then we're out. we thought it was a good idea, but you know what you guys handle it up? do what you've got to do. we got other things to do with darling, but what's, what's the, there's one small problem with your argument. i wish i could agree with it from caught in page in peach for it. remember? yeah, but now the, okay. number one, the democrats at had the senate. he's got both how i said he's very by far the garland party. it's very bi partisan that's it's with so the problem matic about it

. because again, as i've already mentioned, when you go to gym, i mean, no american, it's american presidents are always haunted. you know, losing china losing vietnam, losing this and that, and even losing afghanistan didn't help biden. so, and this is a manager here in plus, tim, it's, it's a nice money making machine for a lot of people involved in it. okay. i mean, if you go to the meat grinder while you're on the losing side, but there are people are being made billionaires and care now. jim. yeah. and, and look up, are they, they've lost in afghanistan, as you say, they've lost in the vietnam with this, losing nato. know, this is another kind of loss. and they know what has defined it that way they've done it. you said didn't have to, they didn't have to do that. that's what brussel brock obama said, hey, ukraine is not the push on to us that push on to rush his milk. not proof with us

with the united states since world war 2. and certainly since the dissolution of the soviet union, it fixed itself was the world and it was for us to put in a real offense when the world uh, in a real sense. but it keeps losing wars with those words, warrant is important. and this is a war that all of europe and all of nato have put it's, it's, it's goods and it's credibility into and that's going to be gone. so that's why, you know, if trump wants to walk away from the american page to make a shot, i mean, there, there are ways of dealing with this. and it's just that the deep state is, is going to resist this. i mean, it's gonna be a lot of fighting about it because it's, it's expensive thing, but there's going to be a lot of resistance in this. and i don't think trump is really capable of resisting that much. what do you want it to leave? fear of seriously one of the take american troop 7. serious. what did they do? they told them, oh let's keep your, let's not why they're there, but they're there for what happened that right now to keep serial destroyed. so

someone will come up with something to tell, trump that you know, you can't be perceived as weak. you can be perceived as losing this battle with drop. i mean the with i with putting and sure he won't react on that basis. but whatever it is, i'll just say this is not, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. so resolution that's actually going to be accepted by russia is going to go down easily and the united states, well they, they, they're the drag of the, the resolution will be on rushes terms, considering the conversation we've had, it's, you know, it's tough medicine for the west to swallow, they wanted this war, they got this war, they destroyed ukraine. they damaged their own economies. and this is what you get for your hubris. go ahead. you know, i mean, just what you said. it says precisely what, what does that precisely, what's going to happen? what s, as my producers already said, no matter how you call it, it seems to be a strategic victory for russia. it's either that we're going to have the reward. there's no way around it. because if need a wins, or if we get a freezing of

a call, if they want, what missiles there? and they said it, they will be they, they set it in multiple times. they will put missiles there where they will be new operated work, or they will be training operated doesn't matter. and they will, they are also talking about really wireless for you, for ukraine. so if that happens, then we have nuclear war in, in 30 minutes, it's all going to be over in 30 minutes. and i, i don't want to make it sound of this scare mongering. it's not, it's, it's the fact that russia will be strategically defeated if this happens. and of course, russia can only respond on a strategic plan, but at least with nuclear weapons against nato and, and the decision making centers are not in kia. they're in brussels in washington dc, and this is what the rochester have said. so it's better for all of us if russia wins and ukraine, because then we will have a sort of like a strategic, let's say bob, ballast is going to be reminiscent of what we have during the 1st couple more. so i don't see any other outcome. you know, you know,

garland grill and is already been mentioned here. i mean, nato goes on and on about its sovereignty, but the states wants to take greenland away from denmark. i mean, it shouldn't be not insights, a threat to the european members of nato. now, i mean, you know, to, into one way or another. trump's going to get greenland? is anybody in europe going to protest as well? and again, what did donald trump's foreign policy when he talks about taking green then and the panama canal shows 2 things. number one, it shows that it's on hinge, and a lot of that stuff i just dismissed donald. trump will say that kind of silliness . and see everybody watch a girl in regard to let you know to some they tell world calls rush unhinged. okay . rush. it had a security threat on its border. it complained about it for 30 years, for god's sake. okay. now trump is gonna say, i'm gonna take a slice of europe as i say this over the next year. internally, these politicians in, in europe are going to be trying to survive. i mean look what's happening, the re romania look what's happening with german elections. dear storm is got one

foot and the political brave and the other on the pat device. they're going to be trying to survive internally as their economies collapse. and people are going to be screening for russian energy, so they can get back on their feet. so they're got 2 wars. yeah, they want to deal with russia, but they're going to be dealing with internal theory for, for quite a while. you know, you know, tim, speaking of chief profession energy, it's never going to go to europe again. the united states flew up the pipeline. why should russian take another chance? why? why, why should it? does it cheaper? i can change it to better g for europe is over, it's gone. go ahead, jim. well, that's, that's a good point. and, and europeans don't seem to european governments at least, don't seem to understand the gravity of that is you say, it's like the american women. why should we do it again? if you blow it up. so the relationships and this is the point that the rush has

been trying to say in the end of the agreements they offer to december of 2021. now we need to have a security architecture that is comprehensive and everybody's concerns are, are met in the united states and they don't just blew it off. they just print, we're not interested in this talking like this. we, we want to run the world where we, we want to take over ukraine and you're going to just let us do that. and it's been a, this has been going on as just as we all know, since at least 2014, you know, for himself was criticized all over the place for not being more aggressive about this another. not recognizing that the don't does republic for 8 years. yeah. and just at the last minute. so we know that the russian regime, the russian government putting has been risk averse. they've been tried to avoid a war, but here it is. and i think now pretty sure, or, you know, i'm not rushing, but i'm pretty sure they're not going to be. they're not gonna swallow this again. they're not gonna know for one of these. all right, gentlemen, you gentlemen not with a fascinating discussion gentlemen,

but we have run out of time. i'd really appreciate it. and of course i want to thank our guests and watching in pittsburgh and in serbia. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. so your next time, remember, cross stop. the the in february 2022, ukraine became the world's number one new store a for ukraine, ukraine. you create a brand new crane pressure truth invited to create a new loan perspective,

ukraine suffering from russian aggression. we seen the main stream media and the nightly news, reciting, clean developed scripts that essentially say exactly the same thing using the buzz words of this is a threat to our democracy. when you see 10 different channels a exactly that sentence, you know that it's a central intelligence agency script. the role of p r firms in ukraine, throughout europe and into united states really can be overstated. it's quite different than it was in previous decades where there used to be more of a covert role of propaganda, government propaganda operations. now this is just celebrated as p r in helping ukraine and helping get their message out. terms of the kind of is who's pulling the strings and who is profiting the

sooners and see and welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. e. off to us selections that we suggested in recent episodes might be, as it turned out to be a land slide for trump, the line genocide. jo, how it goes. tire is a lead to control of us hedge, a monic power, along with the lackeys and propaganda media. last for now, in the 4 years since trump was empowered, usa has lost its global dominance. with the rise of bricks has picked fights with much of the global south sacrifice. hundreds of thousands of ukrainian lives on the altar of naziism. isolated itself with the un, with its u. k. u. s. u. i'm the middle east genocide o, while domestically 40000000 americans could not eat without federal a's. one of the greatest us presidents that has never been his veteran ohio congress when dennis

consented to also run in this 2024 election, the full, the mayor of cleveland and lifelong 5 different global justice and peace joins. we have gained from cleveland in ohio. dennis, thanks so much for coming back on. i suppose i've got to stop before we get to the why the country and the global implications. companies are ations. we are lost in the ohio in the house. a jerry man. did you? you talk to in your book division of lights and the power, how corporate conspiracies tried to destroy you. why did you know when the seats, you know, how well you know, really an independent man ran into a tremendous political head with, in terms of the polarization of going on in american politics. and i challenge both partners. but in particular, the democratic party that i came from, i challenged them on an was flores and on the border and on rising deficit and the government, spying and american people. and well i, when what is know, it was that i received more about 50 more than 50000 bows.