[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter level. the trump administration has quickly realized ending the ukraine. complex is going to be difficult and time consuming. also, there is a growing understanding that the end of fighting does not necessarily mean creating the conditions of peace, the cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess in proud in london. he is a senior british diplomat and author of a myspace in moscow. how british diplomacy and russian failed in providence. we have let him know goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. and here in moscow we have pepe escobar. he is a geopolitical analyst and author card to them in cross lock roles in effect,

that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate, and i'm just gonna go straight to the point, does the trumpet ministration, have any idea on how to approach the goal that the new president has of ending the conflict in ukraine? go for it. like a more of an idea of the previous administration which had no idea to a thing they have a desire to do. let's see if i can get on the front page and as soon as possible, the challenge will be to get so then skips to okay. but vladimir, the way i've seen people talking about it within the administration and in the trans atlantic world in general. and they're actually talking to themselves. remarkably, they're not talking to the russians yet. but they're actually thinking more along the lines of a minsk agreement, which is an absolutely non starter. they the because the minsk agreements weren't fulfilled is one of the reasons why we're here today. vladimir, uh, yeah, i have

a feeling read. uh it is a border, is it a look for ross, lizzie? sure, rushing. you. great. and it's not that high on, on drums agenda. so he's, you know, pursuing other issues and consequently, i don't think you get time and he kind of opportunity to see all sides of the issue. so here, of course, brag that he's going to solve it. he's going to make people talk. but, you know, cool, he's got a notice in the door. i would have to wait till, you know, say to me today, industrial complex can say to the other people say it because, you know, is good for vans. report from mazda, who's bought it from other people, and they say it would have to, to resolve it. but how do this over the united states, obviously as tom, but you glad america 1st, but they want to preserve interest. if somebody is in his administration, could meet this game that us still continue to make money or at least conflict, you know, it will go on because i don't think because there isn't this because you know what

you in the united states. the only think they stand to benefit from it is may be in the future forge in some kind of russian american alliance versus dr. if that's kind of his interest and he's going to be and it's was doing it then maybe he'll pursue doing it. but for the idea that i don't, he, i don't see any kind of a, the go clear thing and just to say, let's solve it just to show it to his voters who guy did invalid and pursue my other agenda that's i think he knew what yeah, well, what the vladimir, everything you just said might be nice and fine, but it has nothing to do with ukraine. i guess that's the problem here. you know, pepe donald trump likes to say that he doesn't want to start wars. okay. during his 1st administration, i think we could say that that was true. he didn't really and many things, but that, that always president again and he says he's against the war. and maybe he wants to end this conflict in ukraine, but he's not going to result all the, the,

the root issues of why these conflicts come about. we can talk about ukraine, we can talk about the ongoing jet aside in gaza. i mean, the problem, i guess, from the, from russia's perspective is that they want to, in fighting, but they don't want to have peace. there is a difference there, pepe. well, the russian rejection so far has been fascinating to watch. which means uh no reaction at all. they're just waiting for the moment. there is this disco inferno, as i coined notes in my late to assess what they call them on the other side. lots of bombast, lots of sound and fury, without even trying to call pest golf to set up a phone call between a trump and putting nothing. and never seeing that was leaked across the beltway and from wash them. and some people's back by the trump administration itself. from 2.0 itself points to in minsk 3. obviously this is not going to

work. so the russian pose, the book thinks positions ok, we are open for meaningful discussions. even the 1st phone call. and even if there is a meeting in the 1st 90 days or so, it's not going to be meaningful. it's gonna be a fantastic spectacle for the cameras. cameras, click on everywhere, had bombastic headlines every last, but no substance. well, in your, you know, you have a experience in this field here. i mean, what is this about the phone call? when setting up a meeting? i mean, at least in the old days, when you, when great leaders met they, they signed things. they had already agreed to something, so i'm kind of agreeing with pepe here. i mean, i can see the, the public relations side benefits without any substance. it's going to hurt both put in and trump go ahead. i mean something page. and obviously you need to talk to when that's scheduled and how that happens isn't another matter,

but that's the key 1st step in a agreement taking place. i just wanted to say on the mysql agreement, actually the 1st on the 2nd mr. green is one bad. they fail because us and the british wanted them to fail. and because the, the cranes that she killed to just full broadcast in february 2022. so the agreements themselves weren't actually bad. it's just that we invested in that fight and therefore they failed. but anyway, i'll leave you that, but i mean, well, no, no, well, since you mentioned it that way, i appreciate it. i mean they failed because they, they were supposed to fail. so why would moscow trust the interlocutors from the west that would even be remotely suggesting something of the same? what the problem here gentlemen, is the lack of trust in exactly is an absolute lack, adjusting that electric just doesn't day banks. 2022 is actually but days back to 2014 and beyond say so the causes a senior thinking and the lesson presidential administration told me even in 2014,

to take a decade at least, to start to build some trust. that's now going to be 2 decades, so there's no trust. but the, you know, conversations is a 1st step and actually starting slowly to rebuild that trust. well, i mean a, but vladimir, i mean, you know, you, you, you said in your 1st answer that it's not really a top priority for, for the trump administration. well, what accounts for his, it with the rest of the economy is failing with the russians. have a 1000000 casualties. where is this coming from? i mean, is he just shooting from the hip? is this what is intelligence? people are telling him? i mean, it's all i can tell you most people that know what's going on with uh, with this crisis. got this kind of laughs out their sleeves. i mean, why is he saying this is this part of the negotiating gamut vladimir? yeah, i don't think he is the video aware of that. i know what was the root of the problem . that is, you know, broder, he's fred, this information because they still talk about something image, but i'm going to do almost the 20th century. it is, you know,

so i'm sure i understand it. well, it will have to lead me to, or i should the export to or, and things of that nature while they are heated. i didn't hear him addressed. and the fundamental issue that need on russian borders is because a special for it, they understand when a few little said, such a, such as duration is especially for the $1.00 to $5.00. they don't understand that in case the rest of this is a disease issue. first of all, they say no more. so heads normal needs. oh, we're basically according to our original ideas on age. are we have to stay around germany sofa. we didn't hear this. so the dole going to do some. she has the grades . are there any other functions? it is a sign that they don't understand what extra hopes of all things to begin. it's plus there is no real job. i'll send over a nadine towards the end of this. you know a bonus is oh or you agree? there's got a new and lots of policies. ben is rational language barrier. i some culture,

you know, in the staging. it'd be about this a to so point a, j. r exist, angels that i have to russia and, you know, they have to, they, and they bus the friends that brothers acting up like they, they were born. they getting not just this unacceptable. i don't think she's so far addressed that i want to, you know, make this a landscaping and, and body and talk about what about what, that's the problem it, it'll pepe. you're a frequent visitor to moscow. and you know, sanctions is always $11.00 tool and the tool box for the american administration, but it be advised and are trump, how are you when you visit moscow? how do you see sanctions impacting the country? there is no impact. uh, the, in this past 2 years, i spent almost 6 months uh, both years in moscow and traveling around flatly of all still cars on st. petersburg, searching, etc. you'll see minor inconveniences,

but you don't see the practical effect of the sanctions. first of all, and ever seen that is being fed to trump so far in this, let's say the 1st 10 days or so is being fed by the c. i a and it's completely absurd in terms of the facilitate, dreadful state of the russian economy, unemployment. they have no money on the demo. they cannot sell their energy and said, this is ridiculous, it is the opposite of what we see when we are here effect. so trump is positioning himself in a way so far, it looks like he's positioning himself to a known dialogue or a dialogue that will go nowhere. and then that can be blamed on polluting and russia. this is unfair is very, it's straightforward negotiating tactic, but it's not gonna work as well because it's up to then the minister of foreign affairs in russia and to putting themselves to tell, look, he doesn't want to talk about the substance. because for instance,

he doesn't even understand the meaning of indivisibility or security. so we have to go back to late 2019, those same, those letters that was sent to the previous administration. they didn't respond. and this was a proposal for a serious dialogue ending ukraine loss and is included in this big discussion about indivisibility, all security, europe and the both soviet space. nobody in trump circle apparently mentioned that to him well. and again, being a diplomat, it seems that the, you know, this core issue of security which i want to talk about in the 2nd part of the program, is largely absent from the conversation. and before we go to the brake flush on the back, she has that recognize that nathan membership is a, is a big strategic issue for russia. and i think you sent to that, that should be taken off the table. i've been playing for a long time to that has to be taken off the table. so piece, talk to me for that piece to me by far the biggest stumbling blocks look forward to

getting into that discussion, embody so this is really interesting because i can appreciate the trump wanting to end the conflict. but the problem is, is that he's not addressing the root causes of how it came about. and this is, you know, something, you know, the cold war was never resolved satisfactorily. it should have been and we're living with the consequences about today. i gentlemen, i'm going to jump in, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our team. the russian states never as tight as i'm one of the most sense community best. most all sense i'm up, the in the system must be the one

else calls question about this. even though we will fan in the european union, the kremlin mission, the state on the russia to day and split our t supposed neg, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for what question did you say to stephen twist, which is the same wrong? just don't you have to say power and engagement because the trail when so many find themselves will

support. we choose to look so common ground the the reason i was in last slow, williamson, i'm you previously the cause the bill of those but today also with them

and 3 where you the by us i'm living with the finance underscore casualties studio . mostly, some you nation jennifer, mushroom bible for most all seems inviting me and move nice see from us the peninsula in the plaza. and the whole question number is a thought repeated real good will see that all these matches. it's a cushion, chess of it for you, my shift if that cool stuff, somebody feel that it was you blue and associated with this. so this the specimen into so 5 stuff in 15 minutes of the year. i said it's a sun lamp. cool. that will suffice it have a in the dress, it was so the sluggish issue will be score nimble. it better suddenly ish the welcome back to the cross spot where all things are considered. i'm peter le belcher mind you were discussing the crane situation.

the as well as it often is during the break, some of the most important things are said, so i'm going to return to them for the broadcast here. um and let me go back to you here. i mean, why should trump and this war? i mean, lot of people are profiting from it. the european slavish, they do what they are told. um, uh the americans will sell them really high energy. i mean, if it's not broken, why fix it? i mean, that's what the syndic would say. and i think that's a sentiment that you can find in some western capitals in it fully installed the full keep paying simple and the americans don't want to keep paying for the war. and i see, you know, ukraine is getting related with the site economy to go on financially beyond does she have any way so, you know, people need find enough clamp and i think that's why we all today. okay, well i mean a lot of mirror um, a lot of people call this a, a griff tear. i mean,

that's one of the reasons many would say is that zalinski is going to fight to the last ukranian because it's a good business model for him. and is his leads and policies being encouraged by so many people. it's still very bipartisan in the west, like, you know, on this for our grow. i bring critics on all the time because they're willing to talk about it. but it still has not made an impact on a many of the leads in the west. russia can't win. that's the mantra. go ahead vladimir. that's absolutely true, and i think it varies a division. and the reason is really simple. comment to people on not very heavy about it. do you guys are, you know, insulation in other things, but all this kind of leads in a chapter in glosses or publications, they are making money of it and he said he was obliged of course it can. you great animal, most diet your under because common people that die in droves and rudy interactions as well. but basically what, what, what happens as far as a lead settings,

an insane broken. let's not fix it because the money is coming and they are right. the course of like way of helping the underdog and the leisure that has to pay for that with that money with their lives, with inconveniences, and so on to. but what is interesting was before, especially in europe, what they are doing, any body in the united states is different from manage. so the, somehow to, to get to the we, but in europe beat france, be germany. anybody who says we have to stop and it's the feasible outcome and people are suffering. inflation is, you know, be a about the rules. they tried to, the dealer did demise this by just so i'll totally georgia's are ones that they do legitimize and so on. so about a stablish man i've gotten hold for the war. yeah. well, the discounts a little less than like in romania, another great democratic experiment in the hearts of europe. it's, it's, it's

a sample of pepe. there's one thing that is obvious that we always, we should be aware of should tell our viewers, is it escalation is always an option. it's always an option, okay? because that's how some people interpret this. trump is threatening, but if it doesn't come to the table, then you'll get my rap. it's always there. escalation is always a possibility. go ahead. pepsi as an escalation will be discussed by the way. uh, early next week in brussels. by may till uh, you council of notables. all of them, all the 27 will be there and there will be talking about the armament they will be talking about continued as far as, as long as they kept with the money they, they don't have by the weight. and with the fame is 5 percent that was imposed by trump and always being posed by uh to the for rudy, the nato secretary general. that that's thing. and it's, it's beyond the, as you said, it's beyond

a joke and they are inflicted on themselves and they want to keep go with this war even if they can not do it from the point of view of the investor military complex is us as a complete a different proposition because they're making a lot of money out of it. so this good from their point of view and the fact that the americans are not direct me, both american troops and my lives all direct and vote is perfect is slabs keeling slabs. and until the last ukraine, so there are a lot of hidden interest to one, throw this up plencik and thread. so of course the one that the war to, to go on trump is he sees a war purely on a cost benefit basis. no, i don't want to pay for it. no, i have better things to do. and better things to do is back for with china and the war that he's going to launch against many of the bricks countries. in fact, theories everywhere is going to be a battery. so now i mean all over the place, this is what his thinking about not to frame. yeah, well, you know, it's

a drum. so we're on the global south when it comes to sanctions. and tariffs is only going to be a win for russian china. it's really extraordinary. during the home myopic, these people are in washington, and again, being a diplomat and knowing diplomatic history, why can't we have a you all to a 2 point? oh, i mean, big picture stuff, you know, another helsinki, the process um, you know, have a resolution to um, the helsinki process, resolve the issues of the 2nd world war. we need another one to codified the end of the cold war in the new realities. big picture, it doesn't have to be about ukraine. it can be about everything about security for all that would work, but there is no political will for it in well, are you in charge? we're still a good document is just to kind of cost that aside as well as imposes this notion of a whole space international order. so you know, they've defied existing rules and increases non k divided. so the rules are new.

they can apply new to, to countries with a, you know, they disagree, the sites. another conference i mean, really works is that every parties allow me to type on an equal basis until that happens. you know, if it's only going to be western dominated kind of form, much like the converse lives keys, you know, peace, somebody's last year twitch in their life and wasn't invited. most people didn't attend the knots, nobody going to be the on. so i, that was, well, obviously, but, you know, when you think of the nato, after the end of the cold war it's, it's, uh, architecture was designed to against then with and without russia. when i was thinking about a yell to 2 point, oh, which would reconsider that. i mean, nato is the problem here. it's not the solution, but there is no point. there is no willingness to recognize that the russian side of said over and over and over again for, for it since the end of the cold war, nato expansion is something that we will not accept. and they said finally,

we don't accept that we have ukraine. so, i mean, let me throw this the bottom here right now. if we have bigger thinking, it can solve smaller problems. vladimir as well, what ice observes, extra is bridget disturbing beach of despite all the internet, despite all this flow of information. most of the people in the you are, but to drill out punch in united states as well. they actually came in the dark about russia. what does it have some concerns, but they don't exist. the only thing they hear is unbearable. i just apply a book and evasion and they hear the day and day out, you know, i travel a lot and you know, i was, i'm, you know, i like, you know, to check what's going on with that g would be the could be the way i was a show i get that, which is in france, you know, they're just a, sorry, you know, i do this. so basically, you know, it may, i'm sure these people, if they work, verify those already and then know they might find something. but anyway, each in

a role die in the, in the country france, spain bought the germany, they don't hear much. so it wasn't one thing. it's not that, you know, they do not have to have meaningful negotiations meaningful. so the resolution, you have to understand where each site is coming from. they don't know where the russians are coming from. the only things they hear is big, bad, uh, voyages and be. but as i said, doing the usual thing in reading it. the other got this, that's what they hear. and i don't know how to break some of those. you know, i imagine this, i'm, but it isn't to you that, but i will visit so far. it works for them to continue their population is ok because a this population keeps them in their places. and so it is a bit sedation. yeah. but pepe here a man that is very knowledgable and you're actually a hero in the global south. i know that for a fact in the global south, everybody knows pepe escobar by the if it's obvious here. but they're the vast majority of the world that sort of the growth in the future is going to be. what did they think of all of this?

i'm just supposing it from what vladimir just said about western audiences and publics. is sacrifices in this past few months. i was in natal scott mostly in france, and that is absolutely correct. there is absolutely no space for russian concerns. the russian point of view is that the demon i zation campaign and russo full the, are of the charge all the time by the, especially by the, all the guards school control, the media, you know, these you, nations, across the board is a different story. what you hear, for instance, even in argentina, which is controlled by a that chain. so uh, the made to sierra to people understand the russian position. and this is discussed that you might have that mix or a causal force equal to 0. the same thing, the average brazilian has a soft spot for russia,

and they try to understand russian motivations and even what caused the s m o in the 1st place across for you. so se, asia, same thing, there's a lot of russia has a good political capital across amazon as well. and because of the efforts of russian diplomats dispatched due to he is especially as the most of us, the young understands that the russian position and no wonder that as the on is coming to breaks now we have for has the power houses as breaks. members include the mean donasia, which is a food breaks member. there is no room. so phobia across the southeast asia for us as well. china, of course, it's a chapter in itself because china, even though seizing being never a pines, let's say a 100 percent d. s. m o. uh there are efforts by chinese media, which as we know is heavily controlled to explain the russian positions to the

chinese public. and this is well understood all across china as well. so we see only what, what i called nate or stand this space, which is my are a little so full view. yeah. in believing in their own propaganda and believing in your own propagate. okay, and we have one minute left here and you're the diplomats on the program will diploma slowly a b t to this new administration. and i'm not thinking of only about ukraine, but i'm thinking about west asia or the middle east is diploma. so going to be a tool that's going to be deployed because the last administration didn't do it. go ahead. but it must be, there's been a complete deposit of the diplomatic space. i was moving to decades sauce, and we don't have the crating costs. it's maddie to a full team tools to kind of increase seamless. why is ation of you and elsewhere have them. at least, as we've seen, we need to get back to the far more difficult task of actually talking to the people with whom you disagree that needs to play and seem to come by what the full phone for the 1st time that i. but i paid. all right, gentlemen,

absolutely. you know, blue ribbon panel, absolutely fabulous discussion. i want to thank you very much. i want to thank my guest in providence london and here in moscow. and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our d. c. a next time. remember the prospect rules, the

the, the media post again is a display, especially if multiple scope of data that us do are usually 2 ones. google bush, just simple boys names, i left them with mean your bus that will extend it. you live at this point and it goes to a spectrum, a couple things. so what do you need that you leave it to go to the do what? just anything you could with business name or general store and well let's, let's say stuff gave me is a couple of them really fast. just interrupt me at my level. i need you to play video with me. that'd be the what the course or not. ok. so look up to me, what do i suggest useful or if you have a good summer available cuz i've got

a mac the see was much nowhere near the shopping. see the rush it and photos is reclaimed settlements in the pool region in for the play at both of these at least $22.00. this has been, it's good for me to be killed. very f o rolled into the west bank was on the condo, is reportedly arrest cn doesn't be able to suppress celebration as adding 10 policy as a free from prison. also has accusing me of being trumps puppet hooton's puppet assad, carpet gurus, puppet bodies. we are a national intelligence directly, so no money defends himself against harsh criticism from the moment because through the senate confirmation hearings say things,