you should, you should, will be slower, nimble, that's better. so then you can use the hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the trump administration has quickly realized ending the ukraine complex is going to be difficult and time consuming. also, there is a growing understanding that the end of fighting does not necessarily mean creating the conditions of peace, the cross section ukraine. i'm joined by my guess in proud in london. he is a senior british, the bill that an author of

a myspace in moscow. how british diplomacy and russian failed in providence. we have let him have goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. and here in moscow we have pepe escobar. he has a view of political analysts and author right to the main cross lock roles in effect, that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate and i'm just gonna go straight to the point. does the trump administration have any idea on how to approach the goal that the new president has of ending the conflict and ukraine? go for it? like a more of an idea of the previous administration, which had no idea to saying they have a desire to do. let's see if i can get them assigned to page them as soon as possible. the challenge will be to get so then skills to okay, but vladimir the way i've seen people talking about it within the administration and in the trans atlantic world in general. and they're actually talking to themselves. remarkably, they're not talking to the russians yet. but they're actually thinking more along

the lines of a minsk agreement, which is an absolutely non starter. they the because the minced agreements weren't fulfilled is one of the reasons why we're here today. vladimir a yeah, i have a feeling read. uh it is a border, is it a look for ross this issue over i see in your grade its not that high on, on drums agenda. so he is so you know, pursue and other issues and consequently, i don't think you're good time. and he kind of opportunity to see all sides of the issue. so here course brag this he's going to solve is he's going to make people strong. but, you know, cool, he's got a notice in the door. i would have to wait till, you know, say to me today, industrial complex can say to other people say because you know what is good for bands report from us boots but from other people. and they say it would have to resolve it. but how do these over at united states, obviously as a tom glad america 1st, they want to preserve interest. if somebody is in the,

he's administration could meet him that us still continued to make money or at least conflict, you know, it will go on because i don't think there is in this because you know what, you in the united states, the only thing they stand to benefit from it is may be in the future for getting some kind of russian american alliance versus dr. if that's kind of his interest and he's going to be in, is, was doing it, then maybe he'll pursue to. but for the idea that i don't, he, i don't see any kind of the go clear thing and just to say, let's solve it just to show it to his voters. who guy did it invalid we pursue my other agenda. that's i think you're what, yeah, well, what the vladimir, everything you just said might be nice and fine, but it has nothing to do with you. crane. i guess that's the problem here. you know, pepe donald trump likes to say that he doesn't want to start wars. okay. during his 1st administration, i think we could say that that was true. he didn't really and many things,

but now he's president again and he says he's against the war and, and maybe he wants to end this conflict in ukraine, but he's not going to was solve the, the, the root issues of why these conflicts come about. we can talk about ukraine, we can talk about the ongoing genocide and gaza. i mean, the problem, i guess, from the, from russia's perspective is that they want to, in fighting, but they don't want to have peace. there is a difference there, pepe. well, the russian reaction so far has been fascinating to watch, which means uh, no reaction at all. they're just waiting for the moment. there is this disco inferno, as i call in a, in my late to assess what they call them on the other side. lots of bombast, lots of sound and fury, without even trying to call pest golf to set up a phone call between through a trump and putting nothing in ever seeing that was leaked across

the beltway and from wash them. and some people's back by the trump administration . itself from $2.00 itself points to a missed 3. obviously this is not going to work. so the russian poses a put things position. so okay, we are open for meaningful discussions. even the 1st phone call and even if there is a meeting in the 1st 90 days or so, it's not gonna be meaningful. it's gonna be a fantastic spectacle for the cameras. cameras, click on everywhere. ahead bombastic headlines are blue. i have, but no substance. well, in your, you know, you have a experience in this field here. i mean, what is this about the phone call and setting up a meeting? i mean, at least in the old days, when you, when great leaders met they, they signed things. they had already agreed to some things, so i'm kind of agreeing with pepe here. i mean, i can see the,

the public relations side benefits. without any substance. it's going to hurt both food and, and trump go ahead. i mean something page. and obviously you need to talk to when that's scheduled and how that happens isn't another matter. but that's the key for us that be in a agreement taking place. i just wanted to say on the mask agreement actually the 1st and the 2nd instagram is one bad. they fail because the us and the british wanted them to fail. and because the, the cranes that she killed the just football broadcast in february 2022. so the agreements themselves weren't actually bad, it's just we invested in that fight and therefore they failed. but anyway, i'll leave you that, but i mean, well, no, no, since you mentioned it that way, i appreciate it. i mean, they failed because they, they were supposed to fail. so why would moscow trust the interlocutors from the west that would even be remotely suggesting something of the same. what the problem here gentlemen, is the lack of trust in the exact season. absolutely. like adjusting that,

like who just doesn't day banks. 2022 is actually but days back to 2014 and beyond say so the causes a senior thinking and the lesson presidential administration. toby event that in 2014 to take a decade, at least, to start to build some trust that's now going to be 2 decades. so there's no trust . but the, you know, conversations is a 1st step and actually starting slowly to rebuild that trust. well, i mean with vladimir, i mean, you know, you, you, you said in your 1st answer that it's not really a top priority for, for the trump administration. well, what accounts for his, it was the russian economy is failing with the russians have a 1000000 casualties. where is this coming from? i mean, is he just shooting from the hip? is this what his intelligence people are telling him? i mean it's, i can tell you most people that know what's going on with, with this crisis, got this kind of lapse out their sleeves. i mean, why is he saying this is part of the negotiating gambon vladimir?

yeah, i don't think he is the video aware of that. i know what was the root of the problem . that is, you know, probably he's fred this information because they still talk about something image, but i'm going to do on the 20th century. that is, you know, so i'm sure i understand it. well, it will have to lead me to that. i showed the export to or, and things of that nature while they are heated. i didn't hear him addressed. and the fundamental issue that nato on the russian borders is, is a special for it. they understand when a few little said such a, such a duration is, he's a special for that. but one of the 5 they don't understand is it's in case of the rest of this disease issue. first of all, they say no more. so it's no more than a dog. we're basically, according to the general ideas on age or we have to say around germany, sofa within the he is. so the dog whole going to do something should be greater than any other functions. it is a sign that they don't understand what extra hawks of all things will begin. it's

plus there is no real dog. i'll send over any dean towards the end of this. you know, a bonus is oh or you break. there's got a new and that's a bull. this has been international language based russian culture. you're not misleading. it'd be about this a, to show point a j u r. existing shows that i have to russia and you know, they had to, they have neighbors, the friends, that brothers acting up like they, they were born. they get not just this unacceptable. i don't think she sofa addressed that. i want to see the, you know, me, is a landscape and body and talk about what about what, that's the problem is, you know, pepe. you're a frequent visitor to moscow. um and you know, sanctions is always 11 tool and the tool box for the american administration. you'd be inviting or trump, how are you when you visit moscow? how do you see sanctions impacting the country? there's no impact. uh, the, in this past 2 years, i spent almost 6 months,

both years in moscow and traveling around flatly of all still cars on st. petersburg, searching, et cetera. you'll see minor inconveniences, but you don't see the practical effect of sanctions. first of all, and ever seen that is being fed to trump so far in this, let's say the 1st 10 days or so is being fed by the c. i a and it's completely absurd in terms of the dreadful state of the russian economy, unemployment, they have no money. other than that, they're gonna sell their energy and said, this is ridiculous. it is the opposite of what we see when we are here effect. so trump is positioning himself in a way so far, it looks like he's positioning himself to a known dialogue or a dialogue that will go nowhere. and then that can be blamed on tutoring and rush.

this is unfair, it's very, it's straightforward negotiating tactic, but it's not gonna work as well because it's up to then the minister of foreign affairs in russia and to putting themselves to tell, look, he doesn't want to talk about the substance. because for instance, he doesn't even understand the meaning of in the visibility of security. so we have to go back to late 2019, those same, those letters that was sent to the previous administration. they didn't respond. and this was a proposal for a serious dialogue ending ukraine loss and is included in this big discussion about indivisibility, all security, europe and the both soviet space. nobody in trump circle apparently mentioned that to him well. and again, being a diplomat, it seems that the, you know, this core issue of security which i want to talk about in the 2nd part of the program, is largely absent from the conversation. and before we go to the brake flush on the back, she has that. recognize that nathan membership is a, is

a big strategic issue for russia. i'm think you sent to that, that should be taken off the table. i've been playing for a long time to that has to be taken off the table. so piece talks to meet fold that piece me by far the biggest stumbling blocks. look forward to getting into that discussion, embody so this is really interesting because i can appreciate the trump wanting to end the conflict. but the problem is, is that he's not addressing the root causes of how it came about. and this is, you know, something, you know, the cold war was never resolved satisfactorily. it should have been, and we're living with the consequences of that today. i gentlemen, i'm going to jump in, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our to the,

with the end of world war one. the move in for an indian independence from the british empire flared up with renewed vigor. the british responded to the growth of the national liberation movement with arrest and brutal violence. repression caused active resistance. in march, 1919, at the call of mahatma gandhi, a peaceful strike began in the country. but the british responded with a new round of violence and far bade the indians to gather more than 4 people. on the day of the sea bass at the festival, a huge crowd of civilians gathered in the center of the city of i'm gonna start in northern india, seeing these as outright defiance. general reginald dyer gave the order to open

fire on the on arms people. the barbaric execution claimed the lives of at least 379 indians, including 40 children, the youngest of who was 6 weeks old. the indian national congress considered the official figures to be underestimated and announced the death of more than $1000.00 civilians. the well known greatest newspaper, the morning post called dyer, the man who saved india, gave him a sword and 26000 pounds sterling as a token of gratitude for the massacre. the amorous star massacre wind down in history as one of the most brutal grinds of the british invaders and only escalated the affair. struggle of the indians for liberation from the colonial yoke. the

welcome back to the cross spot where all things are considered. i'm peter, without your mind you were discussing the crane situation. the well is it often is it during the break? some of the most important things are said, so i'm going to return to them for the broadcast here. and let me go back to you here. i mean, why should trump and this war, i mean, lot of people are profiting from it. the european slavish, they do what they are told. um, uh, the americans will sell them really high energy. i mean, if it's not broken, why fix it? i mean, that's what the syndic would say, and i think that's a sentiment that you can find in some western capitals in a fully installed the full keep paying simple and the americans don't want to keep paying for the war. and i see, you know, ukraine is getting elated with the sites it calling me to go on financially beyond does she have any way so, you know,

people need to find enough clamp and i think that's why we all today. okay, well i mean a lot of mirror um, a lot of people call this a, a griff tier. i mean, that's one of the reasons many would say is that zalinski is going to fight to the last ukranian because it's a good business model for him. and is his leads and policies being encouraged by so many people. it's still very bipartisan in the west side. you know, on this for our grow. i bring critics on all the time because they're willing to talk about it. but it still has not made an impact on many of the leads in the west . russia can't win, that's the mantra. go ahead, go out of here. that's absolutely true. and i think it varies the division. and the reason is really simple. comment to people on not very heavy about it. do you guys are, you know, a to be inflation and other things. but all this kind of leads in a chapter in glosses or publications, or they are making money of that. and he was a bit obliged, of course it can you great animal, most diet your engine because common people that die in throes and ruby

interactions as well. but basically what, what, what happens as far as a lead settings, an insane broken. let's not fix it because the money is coming and they are drive the course of like, way of helping the underdog and the laser that has to pay for that with that money with their lives, with that kind of unions, us. and so i, on to, but what is interesting was before, especially in europe, what they're doing, any body in the united states is different from manage. so the, somehow to, to get to the wind. but in europe, the france be germany, anybody who says we have to stop and it's the feasible outcome and people are suffering inflation is, you know, be a about the rules they tried to lift deal to do demise this by just so i'll totally georgia's are ones that they do legitimize and so on. so about a stablish man, i've gotten hold for the war. yeah. well, the discounts

a little less than like in romania, another great democratic experiment in the hearts of europe. it's, it's, it's a sample of pepe. there's one thing that is obvious that we always, we should be aware of should tell our viewers, is it escalation is always an option. it's always an option, okay? because that's how some people interpret this. trump is threatening, but if it doesn't come to the table, then you'll get my rap. it's always there. escalation is always a possibility. go ahead. pepsi as an escalation will be discussed by the way. uh, early next week in brussels, by natal. uh, you council of notables. all of them, all the 27 will be there and they will be talking about the armament they will be talking about continued as far as, as long as they kept with the money they, they don't have by the weight. and with the fame is 5 percent that was imposed by trump and always being posed by duty for rudy. the nato secretary general,

that that's thing. and it's, it's beyond the, as you said, it's beyond a joke and they are inflicted on themselves. and they want to keep going with this war, even if they can not do it from the point of view of the industrial complex and us as a complete a different proposition because they're making a lot of money out of it. so this good from their point of view and the fact that the americans are not direct me, both american troops and my lives all direct and vote is perfect, this slab, stealing slobs and until the last ukraine. so there are a lot of hidden interest to one, throw this up, plencik and thread. so of course the one that the war to, to go on trump is he sees the war purely on a cost benefit basis. no, i don't want to pay for it. no, i have better things to do and better things to do is that for with china and the war that he's going to launch against many of the bricks countries. in fact,

theories everywhere is going to be a battery. so now i mean all over the place, this is what his thinking about not to frame. yeah, well, you know, it's a drum. so we're on the global south when it comes to sanctions. and parents is only going to be a win for russian china. it's really struggling. during the whole myopic, these people are in washington. and, again, being a diplomat and knowing diplomatic history, why can't we have a you all to a 2 point? oh, i mean, big picture stuff, you know, another helsinki, the process um, you know, have a resolution to a hosting he process would resolve the issues of the 2nd world war. we need another one to codified the end of the cold war in the new realities. big picture, it doesn't have to be about ukraine. it can be about everything about security for all that would work, but there is no political will for it in well, are you in, joshua is still a good document, is just to kind of cost that aside as well as imposes this notion of

a little space international order, so you know, they've defied existing rules and increases non kind of flights of goals or new. they can apply new to, to countries with a, you know, they disagree the sites. another conference i mean, really works is that every parties allow me to type on an equal basis until that happens. you know, if it's only going to be less than dominated, kind of form must like the converse lives keys, you know, piece somebody's last year. twitch in their life and wasn't invited and most people didn't attend the knots, nobody going to be the on. so i, that was, well, obviously, but, you know, when you think of the nato, after the end of the cold war it's, it's, uh, architecture was, uh, designed to against and with, and without russia. when i was thinking about a yell to 2 point, oh, which would reconsider that. i mean, nato is the problem here. it's not the solution, but there is no point. there is no willingness to recognize that the russian side

of said over and over and over again for, for it since the end of the cold war, nato expansion is something that we will not accept. and they said finally, we don't accept that we have ukraine. so, i mean, let me throw this the bottom here right now. if we have bigger thinking, it can solve smaller problems. vladimir, as well was ice observed extra day as bridget disturbing beecher, despite all the internet, despite all this flow of information, most of the people in the you are but to drill out punch in united states as well. they actually came in the dark about russia. what does it have some concerns, but they don't exist. the only thing they hear is unbearable. i just apply a book and evasion and they hear the day and day out. you know, i travel a lot and you know, i was, i'm, you know, i like, you know, to check what's going on with that g with be the, be the way i was a show getting into watching for as you know, there is a, sorry, you know, i do this so basically, you know, it may,

i'm sure there's people if they work really fine, there was already and then know they might find something but everidge involved in any good country. friend, spain bought the joe money, they don't hear much. so it wasn't one thing, it's not that you know, they do not have to have meaningful negotiations. me and i've also the resolution. you have to understand where each side is coming from. they don't know where the russians are coming from. the only things that here is a big bed, a budget, and the bed, the dresser doing the usual thing in reading it, the other concepts. that's what they hear. and i don't know how to break some of those. you know, i imagine this i'm, but it isn't for you that, but i will visit so far. it works for them to continue as the population is ok because a, this population keeps them in their places. and so it's, it's a bit sedation. yeah. but pepe, you're a man that is very knowledgable and you're actually a hero in the global south. i know that for a fact in the global south,

everybody knows pepe escobar by the if it's obvious here. but they're the vast majority of the world. that's where the growth in the future is going to be. what did they think of all of this? i'm just supposing it from what vladimir just said about western audiences and publics is sacrifices in this past few months. i was in need to stop. mostly france, and that it's absolutely correct. there is absolutely no space for russian concerns. the russian point of view is that the demonization campaign and russo full the, are of the charts all the time by the, especially by the all the go to school control the media. you know, these you, nations, across the board is a different story. what you hear, for instance, even in argentina, which is controlled by a that chain. so uh, the method, the chair of the people understand the russian position and this is discussed that you might have that mix or a causal force equal to 0. the same thing,

the average brazilian has a soft spot for russia, and they try to understand russian motivations and even what caused the s m o. in the 1st place, across 4 is the southeast asia. same thing, there's a lot of russia has a good political capital across amazon as well. and because of the efforts of russian diplomats dispatched to 3 years, especially as the most of us young understands that the worship position and no wonder that as the on is coming to bricks. now we have for has the power houses as breaks. members include, i mean donasia, which is a full bricks member, there is no room so full be across the southeast asia, for instance, the ball, china, of course, it's a chapter in itself because china, even though seizing being never approved, let's say a 100 percent d. s. m o. uh there are efforts by chinese media,

which as we know is heavily controlled to explain the russian position to the chinese public. and this is well understood all across china as well. so we see only what, what i call natal stand. this space, which is meyer in russo folder. yeah. yeah. uh and believing in their own propaganda and believing in your own, propagate. okay. and we have one minute left here in your the diplomats on the program will diploma slowly a b t to this new administration. and i'm not thinking of only about ukraine, but i'm thinking about a west asia or the middle east is diploma. so going to be a tool that's going to be deployed because the last administration didn't do it. go ahead. but it must be this been a complete deposit of the diplomatic space. i was moving to a debt case us and we don't serve the crating costs. it's maddie to a full team to was going to be increasing, but as far as ation of you and elsewhere have them, at least as we see, we need to get back to the far more difficult task of actually talking to the

people with whom you disagree that needs to play and see to come by what the full phone for the 1st time that i but okay. all right gentlemen. absolutely. you know, blue ribbon panel. absolutely fabulous discussion. i want to thank you very much. i want to thank my guest in providence london. and here in moscow, and of course, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our d. c. a next time. remember the prospect wrote, the, [000:00:00;00] the media posts again is a display,

especially if i'm supposed to have that as well. yes, it to once google bush just super boys names i left, i'm unfamiliar. postpone and extend it. you know about this book when i particularly source electronics without telling you that you live in the do what just anything you could with business name or just the oil. and when i say stuff, day music to really face just interest me at my left a new digital or real 0. which means i mean it the what the course or not. ok. so look of the new address you just use. most people are dealing with somebody else. the see was more snow when you have

the i'm actually under tendency and welcome back to going underground bulk of single around the world from the heart of the middle east where hundreds of thousands of palestinians, the volume is of 16 months of u. k. u. s. u, i'm genocide are on the way home. this is israel area, the bombards lebanon, but the so called us the state faces. chaos will be not in the us back yard with donald trump's threats against columbia succeeded in demonstrating us power outside of cuba, nicaragua, and venezuela. an african mineral superpower long ago, the u. s. embassy has been under attack f. b i and intel boss, fix cache patel, a new tenant gun or tools he gathered confirmation hearings demonstrate the fee is of the military industrial complex. as trump tries to have a whole decades of dirty tricks against the people of the usa and the people all

around the world, that alone support for dictate as a lend skis, nazis and ukraine estimates the washington town model the ca quietly admitted the likelihood of code 19 which killed perhaps 20000000, emanated from a foul chee by a wolf or a lab, least in china as to freedom of speech in the vessel states of europe, switzerland, just incarcerated. truth teller, how the name, a founder of the electronic intifada. just days after it rolled out the red carpet for his really genocide president, is that good? so i'll get that was another truth, taylor max boom. until the editor in chief of the grey zone joins me again from washington. d. c. max, thanks so much for coming. back on i should start all by saying is the grey zone there now in the white house that the invitation of caroline leave at trump's new press, secretaries is very clear. if you wanted the presumably organizations like yourselves right there in the heart of power downstairs from the oval office. well i'm hoping

to be allowed back into the state department press for room, but uh,