the hello and welcome to was a part and jo pulls to explore them in any other area of human activity, friendship and energy come at a price that's particularly true about the relationship between great powers which now wished and you inflection point with the potential for mutual cooperation and mutual destruction, being roughly a quote, which way are the scales of history likely to tip? i'll discuss that. i'm now joined by and we're shown such demo a professor of the give a hello natalie university in, in your daily professor is great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me. now, most jo, political discussions, this, these are colored by the events in the united states and the integration of donald trump and give them their dramatic or a times erratic nature. i think it gives many of the nation's an opportunity to have a sober look at the policies and decide which way they want to go, perhaps towards more self grounding,

deciding which relationship they want to keep for each relationship they want to change. and i want to look at the interest policy from that perspective. let's start at a potential for change. i know that the relationship between indian china has long been throughout the testy but over the last couple of months that have been notable signs of warming up. are you more hopeful or skeptical about these 2 large nations developing a somewhat more harmonious way of relating how to deal with china arising, china assertive china? is it major challenge for or also rising and assertive in their? well, india is not a so to, but india is definitely rising. so, so this has been a challenge for india. and this is also a good opportunity because you know, these tweak on visa, logical enemies,

next to each other going very fast. so they can also feed each other know, despite all the challenges all the problem which india and the last few years had be china. still last year china was india's number one trading partner. and for the, for the us, 50 is 40 years that china has been, india is one of the top trading partners. so, so there, he's also being the long disputed border. so for the last few years, things of deteriorated. but know, as you're likely mentioned in the last few years, last few months. uh, there had been certain positive developments into that as we speak in deals forward . and so i could see is visiting china. so there has been, uh, i would say, oh, cautiously i would say when is off the mistake, that things would uh come to some kind of normality. we're, we know that the border issue will take a long time to be as owned, but it can be,

it is old uh by talking. so one can only hope that you know, things would be mode or more or less in a situation where you have certain uh, issues to be resolved. but at the same time you can start working as a good neighbors. and i'm working on many with those issues. the co china can also provide many opportunities to and i heard the experts say that the china india relationship says the cold war has, has followed this assault per woke. repeat pattern when there would be some positive steps. and then they would invariably be in a gated by some disputes. later on, do you think these are recent uh, positive moves still within the cycle or they have some potential for breaking through it? no, i would think that you know, so, so it has been all decided at the top level that we have to find certain solution to the problem. i'm at and uh, i think

a they have taught to disclose us because both countries as a them what your leadership. so despite all the problems we had done and still i think the multiple quite, quite shifting that, that he should not go out of control. and others should not take advantage of the problems between india and china. so i think i'm optimistic that hopefully we'll see some positive developments. now you mention some talks of the top level, and of course there was a major meeting between prime minister in la d and president a she which took place here in the restaurant. i. so i wonder though, if you take this positive development as of this think in its own driven by its own a dynamic, or is it more an influence or 5 global advance, for example, or response to what's going on across the ocean in the united states? well, i think is a combination of all the factors because it takes kind of what happened in isolation. what is happening in europe, what is happening in united states?

what is happening in the asia? and you have to look at all those issues carefully. and then you have to calculate, there is onset entity, as you said, you know, even did i did states under jump, it's unpredictable how he was going to react at the same time. there are serious issues at the global level and you have many conflicts. and as we have seen, the global institutions of government is whether you look at the united nation security constantly, all you look at a new deal. all you look at the, you know, w actually when united states and moved out. and you know, all this to shows have not been very effective. so obviously you have to look at those situations and then try to see that, you know, there are other countries in which, how many india is impacted. who i mean, despite all the, i mean what problem behind the china. but, you know, with countries not just only with us, you all you would with the rest. how many days these nobody having good relations,

no more than 35 strategic partnership. so you have to see really just like the same time that also certain principles. so i think this is the india is looking at the situation. now the, the chinese policy is sometimes described as one of a tactical expediency when china will, for certain agreements, violate some parts and tried to sort of cover it out with the reassurances at the high level. do you think there's any difference in how china relates to its various partners and which agreements it's choose us to uphold all perfectly or let's say for goal, this is what in fact is happening because, you know, many of the agreements which india and china put in place uh i the, i agree that the body will be tranquillity, peace till that time we are able to resolve this issue. now that's going to do it for quite some time. uh, at least uh, 20 years plus. but suddenly, uh,

some of those times the deal, seeing that they were why they did buy china, the china will have its own explanation. but the problem, but the fact of the murder was that, in fact, the mattress still is that for a couple of years, relations between india and china, it has not been done with. and we have to bring it back to the normal se, but then that raises the question of what is normal? because, i mean, uh normal means that you have certain issues because it will blow the countries are going well. the whole country is agreeing at the same place so, so the bone to be tension. so in certain areas in which both of them will be cooperating. like in trade and investment in technology and basically over to doing which we are doing. and we can do even more then the also it is, it is going to be certain competition because both of them were also growing. that would be looking for markets. they would be looking for different investment. they

want to also looking for certain influence. so there is also going to be in that sense competition, but that also, but it should not really become conflict. so, so this is what the, you know, so busy in the china, the nation, they look into 2 policies, that kind of thing, the competition, cooperation conflict. so this is what has been the case for quite some time. so sometimes you have more cooperation, less config, sometimes like velocity is you have slightly more conflicting issues, but then the cooperation is less. but uh, you know, this is all you have to manage the, your interest and you brought on by the american formula of 3. see, they often cited in the relation to, to china. i wonder if you think that india, or perhaps even russia to some extent, derive any indirect benefit from the increased attention that the united states has now paying to china. and do you think it changed the way and china behaves itself both in the region and in the world? well, i mean, obviously uh the uh country is, would like to take advantage of the,

the united states. as you mention, if there is a certain tensions between india and china, so they also have that issues which i know they would like to use this uh to use uh, this particular attention to the entered one page at the same james as india has the shoes which i know for the last few years. so the kind of tension which is building between the united states and china. india also would like, would be a good one dish on that. then sure, if it's fair i the same time, this is also happening that uh, the kind of problems you had and all the rest, both with the auto and with the united states and sanctions. this has brought china and russia together, which is creating certain, um, what is in india that to, for the shelby comes to closer to china, which is not feeling very good for us in the long run. because you know, the feel that the, that i, she, i should be playing much more independent will be good role in those little bit of it. so this is the whole things that would be happening with every country looking

at their own interest is trying to, you know, use that particular situation. but we have a careful that we should not be used by others. but you know, in this kind of situation. so we've tried to resulting by let, to leave the china and india has also sought to mitigate this. china is factored by developing ties with the west. i think the previous administrations have been the courting new daily, quite extensively. i would even say, but the india enjoy the very special treatment for quite some time. do think that will continue on the trump administration. what do, at this point, just highlighting the so many interests between india and united states, which have gone was and values of assertive china is also one of those reasons that both of them come together because it's very difficult for one independent country to kind of the violence, china, nobody can stop the eyes of china, you know, and that's an independent factor. but at least you, you tied to the bylaws that,

you know, you went into some knowledge in the holland. why that does eyes so both trying to work on. so that's why you have the letters a good idea and then you also have the end up as the economics. they will then you'll also have within the pacific and only plan with different things you're talking. so all those things are basically trying to the balance certain things, working with the united states. yes. of all, but uh, does the united states commit to all those forms? because i mean, judging from the 1st moves of the trump administration, and there's some, some controversy within that administration. it looks like perhaps the relationship with the indian males. so change because i heard that there are some major disputes over the h one, b visas. uh 70 percent of ways go to higher skilled workers who happened to be mostly indians in the past. if that issue is change, do you think it will affect the emotional temperature between the 2 always will i mean dump was there also earlier for 5 years?

uh, this is one area in which of, i think one can see the slide slick shows that a certain interest. i mean it's not just only this i'm, there could be daddy. so i need a when somebody and also he impose that and dad is sending you. but i think that i think the indian policy makers are quite confident that they'll be able to manage those of one. i mean, how do you negotiate with them on certain issues? all you'll give, set them, given take that, you know, uh, from certain specific products. a certain other thing would shut off in just the united states. you might just allow those things to happens. but those are not going to affect fundamentally, i would say in the united states relations because it's such an interest at this point of time there can watching. and it didn't sort of. and this to mention that the before to them to go that to many countries and the war does what it, what it from, from the drums coming to the united states. but india is not one of them. now,

and there is an old saying political circles, that's when the united states needs as the world catches a cold. and if you take that matter for a little bit further, i think the united states right now is not just sneezing. it said it in a very high fever with some a rabbit called come convulsions, but you're saying that the indians are not worried. and how is india trying to sort of protect itself from the erotic nation of that the ministration or the you don't believe perhaps that it's erratic? no, i mean it's unpredictable. it's probably that's quite true. but to, from the positive experience that there could be certain issues in which you could result. and then there's also the fact that there is also good personal chemistry between the but i'm this, i'm all the addresses and some are things can go wrong, some good. i mean, nobody can be totally 100 percent. sure about this, but they are not see any. that's what he does like the what about that mistake and then many of those, perhaps you heard, i think, well professor, we have to take

a very short break right now. but we will be back in just a few moments stitching the . there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the or a stupid case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also absurd. this is the 3rd world lunacy re washing pressed for. so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to help me living on that. we have very close propaganda. you know, a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask a better. the answer is will be the

the welcome back to was a part of it. of course, john says deborah, a professor at general, headlong out or university in new dalliance professor and before the break, we discussed many changes at a now happening into politics. but in his resume book, the indian external affairs administered jason, how to grow that the india russia relationship is quote, the subject of attention. not because it has changed, but because it has not. what do you think allowed for these non change given that the 2 countries internally have transformed a great deal? what do you do audio also, you mentioned a couple of times that the, the word has changed. as i, she has seen, india has st. but india and i see on a lease has continued to be a stable fact of international relations. because of, you know, as you know, the india in india, the relations and the so which is

a very strong you will know after that you will not for the soviet like, uh, when what day to relations are the most uh, you know, if any, because any is as always, you know, used to be in the as number one, trading partner on the specific uh, trading of england, which we had in the ninety's. the older 2 disappeared, but we weren't able to put together. so to me is switching them back and as them off to visit at least the political and strategic relations became more or less close and then uh, defense continue to be very important data. yeah, because most of the indian platforms will continue to be russian. and then in deal was also able to find certain uh, areas, particularly nuclear energy space. we're still, you know, many of the but, you know, kind of corporation was built. but you know, the private sector attain simply didn't work because she was looking more towards the west india things change. and then we'll also looking for new markers, people, those work for anything and that i should market earlier or in the soviet market.

those things simply didn't exist then, but you know, the 1st factor which was built over decades between india and russia, that continued. can i ask you about that? because clearly and then what in danger politics uh, there, there is a very huge shortage. i would even say of the lack of trust the countries have moved away from that paradigm. and yet, i think the relationship between india and china demonstrates that, you know, if things off to try to preserve it, even when commercial ties and the burgeoning, what do you think this uh, stability at allows the to countries is it why is it worth while to try to cultivate it in, in your relationship because it was, it was very deep rooted. it's not just only about the between just few interest. it was not just only about few political leaders or few political parties. in fact,

it opens this. so the became india as plus family history in 2014. he wasn't able to do it in the union government. he was of the state leader. and at that time it was expected that you know, human not really be very effective for them. policy player, and i remember, you know, he had 1st meeting with the president 14 and somebody asked him about the india or she and relations. and it'll naturally that his 1st reaction was that if you ask anybody in india, even a child and who is your best friend and also wouldn't be that. yeah. so it looks deep, polluted. that kind of a relationship we're, it's not just the only defense forces. it's sort of just on the, or the political leaders at the general mosley will. people think that russia is a little faint and that perhaps works with all, you know, all the policy makers as well. so they feel that whenever there was

a political movement in india's history, whether it was 1971 in the, uh, you know, in the butler, they sure, i mean 90. i bought this done situation or later on when it was a issue of jungle in case we, it was day of the united nations or any particular time in india needed somebody at the united nations security console or any other international for them. a she has to do with india. so similarly, the same situation when you know, uh, happened during the euclidean crisis. oh, so he's on the, there's a sentiment that is, you know, there might be certain issues there, but you know, here the fan which is at a certain problem. and dana, it was very difficult for writing to the western countries to understand the one day just and they look like disappointed perhaps because they do not develop relationship in such a fashion. because as you pointed out, it takes time years, dickens, to actually cultivate and sometimes forego immediate interest in order to,

you know, show respect to the connections that uh, you force them interesting way. and after the, you know, you mentioned some difficult times in a rush just yesterday in the rest of the recent history. and that's the relationship they don't because it allowed the russia to reorient. if oil uh, exports very swiftly, 2 inches, also a great benefit. if i'm not mistaken, the russian, our calls for 40 percent of in this oil imports compared to less than one before the one. now, what's interesting about it is that a lot of this oil, as far as understanding, gets refined in it and then being the adult to, to, to, to europe in union. and this is the, i have the question i have for you. how do you understand this european positioning sort of ascending this energy sources circulating around the entire continental and losing what's important added value in the process?

because a lot of those profits they used to be earned by the europeans themselves, but now they're ready to pay the pay exorbitant prices for the same source of energy. but with the, well, i think this is the, i mean, you know, when the a, hey, you know, the ukraine was started obviously they, they had certain issues and this didn't believe continue to have those issues. and then they decided that they have to move away from that issue in energy sources and that they didn't, they didn't was wanting that so, so in the political decision was taken. so slowly and slowly this started moving away and that created the situation in which a lot of she also have to because she continued to be a major producer and it's for the off energy. so for the europeans and not buying so that she obviously have to find new markets. so china within the lock it and deal with in the market. but the only thing was a lot of the problems. how do you really oh, suddenly created that linked it is and the data will be much higher because it is

also closer to identify the sources in the middle east. uh so uh, maybe the fact of the freight would be added into this. but then you have the discounted price that sets us, we'd be uncertain back, that was the one that was a political really to do 2nd thing. they were able to do it. and then there was also, i'm president of sanctions against russia. so some hope all is see may, it goes in both the country, then agencies involved the countries. they have been also able to work up certain mechanism. the payments are made and still things are continuing of cause it's may not be that easy. i can understand it may be very complicated situation, but you know, it has to be done. so it means that there is a political will and the question you us on bearable delay. but during the planning that sounds very positive, we literally went for the europeans and for the global market, because of that i should, oil was not there in the global market, they'll be much more willing to ality. there will be much for the price. would that be much higher than the i'm the consumers in europe also would have paid much

higher price than what actually they are getting. know. so we, this is india. there might be, this is india and it says that, you know, india still buying the be the oil from last year, but the day that they buy and what are you for loss of your wi fi that applies the a global energy market and they themselves are buying that in that sense, really in the play at a very important stabilizing goal, i would say, uh, i think it also comes tre. sounds a bit loud for a sort of a, just a distribution of economic activity because you're of, at least before the kinetic phase of this conflict. accumulated a lot of the added value benefits. and now, you know, they're being shifted to other countries like india. and i suppose this may trickle down from the energy sector to other industries as well, because you need energy in order to develop your economies. now do you think this situation is permanent to do things the, your opinions forever real uh, sort of stay of this kind of arrangement, or is there

a potential for turning around? well, there's a potential of everything a little, but the at the moment looks like that for the next couple of years. things are going to be the way things are happening because he would have 5 women say that it will uh take that is all you know, uh the clean case. but you know, i mean the sanctions, etc might continue for some more time. similarly, europeans may own, so politically, they have decided that there's also no pressure from the united states because i just states itself is becoming a major nosy producer. so they would, they would like to the, i mean, your appeals to buy more. and as you from the united states then from last year and in the process in the last 2 years, new look good is also been created sooner the same situation as seen. so it may not be exactly the same situation, say after 2 years after, even if things are normalized and the process. uh, it does more than uh, processing capacity. is it india, there's a new routes would be created,

new connectivity channels would be created all because of the williams up there. so many of those go to dollars which india and that she had been talking for years. some of the things made materialize because all dictated williams are there are many things that are uncertain, but this has also with some new opportunities for indians us. you have to work together in many new areas as well as a minister of foreign affairs minister described into strategy as engaging with america. managing relations with china, strengthening ties with you are pressuring russia, bringing japan into play, drawing in our neighbors, extending our regional influence and expanding our traditional basis of support. that's a very ambitious and very multi faceted plan. what do you think is its weakest or perhaps most tenuous point? no, i don't think anything requested and this is, i mean the 12 a one all at all times, but it's not the possible. no,

but i don't see any contradiction here in this is, i mean what you can see the do 1st thing of the typically, i mean some, some people said that it is going from the other line meant what are the alignment? but i think it's not even a line, but it's multi engagement, because alignment indeed is not aligning with anybody. it's an order with any country because india cannot be even if you're working in the pacific with the united states. india is not in a like a like, you know, uh, but you know, on like, uh say, the other partners, you know, whether japan or all the stream, the, another, those who come with the united states. and even though there's something in the pacific or not. but india of a lot, but did a certain interest and because of the initial, the china, particularly these kind of narrative, these kind of things do well. uh, so this has been working at the same time. it is also playing a very important role in all within the global sold because global, so today is not what it used to be installed a bunch of you're developing countries. we didn't global, so did a heavy rates,

politically, economically, strategically. and a, you look at any of them was that they look at play and you look at investment, you look at the, you know, many of the, you wouldn't even services if technology, the global sold countries on becoming important. so in the i can work with the neighbors and the global assault and also the other players. so it's the same vicious, but yes, i mean, so far, i mean the it as well. but do you ok? now let me ask one of those question because in this a great list of objectives, the minister didn't mention packet stung by name, and there's also no thing about managing historical amenities. how do seem developing, do you think this issue will be addressed primarily on a battle actual basis, or has it now become a sort of a small thing within that much broader puzzle as well? i think if india has any ambition to be an important player within asia and at the

global level, so you cannot see any player varies important drone or that emission. so if you do not see any resolved, your issue has been in your neighborhood. so to mid to the, uh, india has to find ways to work, but to kind of dimension into focused on but the sofa, i think situation has not really these that please don't see any effect to, you know, look, i know for the nations with others of the, they've bought those boxes done within the largest people. things may not be that important. but i think for your, the largest role ambition, you have to find certain things also within your neighborhood. and it has to be done by that lead. that has been the policy to out well, professor, we have to leave it there. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much for that. i do think pleasure talking to you and thank you for watching hope to share again on worlds apart. the

during the 2nd will pull underground power in the industry organizations in poland, occupied by german troops, as well as in the bordering regions of bella. ros were united into the so called home on a philadelphia to figure out the political center or would the organ. let me do the prospect. just say it's because i use a blue screen list and by putting the front of it is actually considered in the shifting when they put you through these issues. you guys think of who mom a was the main organization that the poet issue system, the switching against gym and occupational and soviet rule company's been in the army cuz i knew away 1920 the level. she moistened printing the voice volkswagen. you said it's going to put those on anything unusual this, you know, that's what it is. the home on a carried out operate, so as to destroy the nonsense. but then switch to settling schools with soviet partisans and the civilian population that supported them. they have nearby to

automate car you over to destroy your hospice and me today. well, i've been in the new data product for my goal is to be a good product is on the new process that has pretty liberal in agreement or just focus is devali 60 those up levels to boy boy, when you go to your village, can i serious deal for when you have no need. so for us to skimp, and we generally look for use imaging to cheat anymore. so the the june 22nd 1941 piece and the theme everyone in the country should be the radio announcement that was begun. fios finding.