say a time, thank you for having me. now, most jo, political discussions, this, these are colored by the events in the united states and the integration of donald trump and give them their dramatic or a times erratic nature i think and gives many of the nations an opportunity to have a sober and look at the policies and decide which way they want to go, perhaps towards more self grounding, deciding which relationship they want to keep for each relationship they want to change. and i want to look at the interest policy from that perspective. let's start at a potential for change. i know that the relationship between indian china has long been the testy, but over the last couple of months they have been notable signs of warming up. are you more hopeful or skeptical about these 2 large nations developing somewhat more harmonious way of relating how to deal with china?

arising china assertive china is a major challenge for or also rising in a certain india while india is not a so to but india is designated to these icing. uh, so this has been a challenge for india. and this is also a good opportunity because you know, these 2 economies are logical enemies next to each other going very fast. so they can also feed each other. no, despite all the challenges, all the problem between the and the last few years had be china. still, last year china was india's number one trading partner. and for the, for the last 15 years, 20 years that china has been, india is one of the top trading partners. so there, he's also being the long disputed border of. so for the last few years, things of deteriorated, but no, as you're likely mentioning the last few years,

the last 2 months, the had been certain positive developments into the as we speak in deals for them is that good see is visiting china. so there has been, uh, i would say, oh, cautiously i would say one is optimistic that things would uh come to some kind of normality. we're. we know that the border issue was a long time to be rezoned, but it can be, it is old. uh, by talking. so one can only hope that you know, things would be more the more or less in a situation where you have certain uh, issues to be resolved. but at the same time you can start working as a good neighbors. and i'm working on many all of those issues because i know it could also provide many opportunities. when i heard the experts say that the china india relationship says the cold war has, has followed this assault per woke repeated pattern. when there would be some positive steps, and then they would invariably be in a gated by some

a dispute later on. this thing, these are recent uh positive moves, a still within that cycle or they have some potential for breaking through it. no, i would think that you know, so, so it has be now decided at the top level that we have to find certain solution to the problem. um and uh, i think a, they have talked through this process because both countries as a then what your leadership. so despite all the problems we had done and still i think the multiple quite, quite choosing that that he should not go out of control. and others should not take advantage of the problems between india and china. so i think i'm optimistic that hopefully we'll see some positive development. now you mentioned some talks of the top level, and of course there was a major meeting between 5 minutes to marty and president. she reached a place here in the restaurant. and as i wonder though,

if you take this positive development as of this thing in its own, driven by its own, uh, dynamic, or is it more an influence or 5 global events, for example, or response to what's going on across the ocean in the united states. no, i think is a combination of all the factors because it takes care of what happened in isolation. what is happening in the order of what is happening in the united states? what is happening in the asia? and you have to look at all those issues carefully and then you have to calculate, there is uncertainty. as you said, you know, even did i did states under dump, it's unpredictable how he was going to react at the same time. there are serious issues at the global level and you have many conflicts. and as we have seen, the global institutions of the one is whether you look at the united nation security calling. so in the all you look at the w deal, all you look at the,

you know, w actually when united states and moved out. and you know, all the, these 2 shows have not been very effective. so obviously you have to look at those situations. and then try to see that, you know, there are other countries in which, how many india is infected, who i mean, despite all the, uh, i mean, what problem do you have the china? but you know, what country is not just only with us. yeah. you would with the west, how many days these liberty having good relations, no more than 35 digit partnership. so you have to see really just like the same thing that also certain principles. so i think this is the india is looking insight to issue. now the chinese policies south time, is described as one of a tactical expediency when china will, for certain agreements, violate some parts and tried to sort of cover it out with the reassurances at the high level. do you think there's any difference in how china relates to its various partners and which agreements it's choose us to uphold all perfectly or

let's say for goal, this is what, in fact, is it happening because, you know, many of the agreements which india and china put in place, uh, a d, i agree that the border there will be tranquillity, bees till that time we are able to resolve this issue. now that continued for quite some time uh, at least uh 20 years plus. but suddenly, some of those times the deal for you in the wiley tube by china, the china would have its own explanation. but the problem, but the fact of the murder was that, in fact the mattress still is that's a couple of years. relations between india and china, it has not been normally and we have to bring it back to the normal mileage. but, and that's, it raises the question of what is normal because, i mean, the normal means that you have certain issues because it will board the countries are doing well. the whole country is agreeing at the same place. uh,

so there are bound to be tension. so in certain areas, in which both of them will be cooperating like in trade in was spent in technology and eventually over to do it, which we are doing. and we can do even more then the also it is, it is going to be 2nd competition because both of them are also going, they would be looking for markets. they would be looking for different investment there and also looking for certain influence. so there is also going to be in that sense competition, but that also, but it should not really become conflict. so, so this is what, you know, so busy india, china, the nation, they look into to policies that kind of thing though, competition, cooperation, conflict. so this is what has been the case for quite some time. so sometimes you have more cooperation, less config, sometimes like velocity is you have slightly more conflicting issues. but then the cooperation is less. but you know, this is all, you have to manage the, your interest and you brought out by the american formula of the receipt. and they

all fund sided into relation to the china. i wonder if you think that india, or perhaps even russia to some extent, derive any indirect benefit from the increased attention that the united states is now paying to china. and do you think it changed the way a china behaves itself, both in the region and in the world? well, i mean, obviously other countries would like to take advantage of the united states. as you mention, if there is a certain tensions between india and china. so they also have that issues which i know they would like to use this uh to use this particular attention to the entered one page at the same james as india has the shoes, which i know for the last 2 years. so the kind of thing shows which is building between the united states and china. india also would like, would be a good one dish on that. den, sure if it's fair and the same thing, this is also happening that uh, the type of problems you had and all the rest bullets with the auto and with the

united states and sanctions. this has brought china and ratio to gather which is creating certain um, what is in india that too, for that shelby comes to closer to china, which is not really very good for us in the long run. because, you know, we feel that, that i, she, i shouldn't be playing much more independent or be good role of those little of it sort of decent whole things that'd be happening with every country looking at their own interest is trying to, you know, use that particular situation, but we have a careful that we should not be used by others of, you know, in this kind of situation. so we've tried to resulting bilaterally, the china and india has also sought to mitigate this. china is factored by developing ties with the wes thing. the previous administrations have been courting and new daily, quite extensively. i wouldn't wanna say, but the india enjoy the very special trip and then to for quite some time dissing that will continue on the trump administration. what do, at this point,

just highlighting the so many interests between india and united states, which i'm kind of was, and values of assertive china is also one of those reasons that both of them come together because it's very difficult for one independent country to kind of the violence, china, nobody can stop the eyes of china, you know, and that's an independent factor. but at least you, you tied to the butler's that you know, you had interest. so knowledge in the home to buy that his eyes. so both are trying to work on, so that's why you have the letters a good idea and then you also have the end up as a economically it will. then you'll also have within the past the vacant and only thing with different things you're talking. so all those things are basically time to the bell of certain things, working with the united states. yes. of all, but uh, does the united states commit to all those forms? because i mean, judging from the 1st, most of the trump administration, and there's some, some controversy within that administration. it looks like perhaps the relationship

with indian male. so change because i heard that there are some major disputes over the h one, b visas, uh 70 percent of ways go to highly skilled workers who happen to be mostly indians in the past. if that issue is change, do you think it will affect the emotional temperature between the 2 always a little i mean dump was there also earlier for 5 years. uh, this is one area in which of, i think one can see the slight freak shows that a certain interest. i mean, it's not just only this i'm, that would be that if so i knew when somebody at also he was at and dad was sending to you. but i think that i think the indian policy makers are quite confident that they'll be able to manage those of one. i mean, how do you negotiate with them on certain issues? all you'll give, set them given dick that, you know, uh if i'm certain specific products. uh, a certain other thing would shut off in just the united states. you might just allow those things to happens, but those are not going to affect fundamentally,

i would say in the united states relations. because it's such an interest at this point of time, the can watching and it didn't for them. and just to mention that the before to them to go that to many countries in the world does what it, what it from to the terms coming to the united states. but india is on one of them . now there is an old saying political circles, that's when the united states needs as the world catches a cold. and if you take that matter for a little bit further, i think the united states, right, that was not just sneezing. it said it in a very high fever with some a radical convulsions, but you're saying that the indians and not worried and how is india trying to sort of protect itself from the erotic nation of that the ministration or the you don't believe perhaps that it's erratic, no, i mean it's unpredictable, it's probably that's quite true. but to, from the past experience that there could be certain issues in which you could

result. and then there's also the fact that there is also good personal come and see between the but i'm this, i'm all the and residents from already things can go wrong. some good. i mean nobody can be totally 100 percent. sure about this, but they are not see any of that. what it as like the order be under. what about that mistake and then many others perhaps you heard, i think, well professor, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will get back in just a few moments section. the russian states never as tight as i'm one of the most sense community. most all sense and that's the same assistance

must be the one else calls question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on russia to day and split the r t spoke neck, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on you to the, to the service. what will the question, did you say it's a request for? check the, [000:00:00;00] the,

the welcome back to was a part of it, of course, child such deborah, a professor at jo. how long after university in new dalliance professor and before the break, we discussed many changes at a now happening into a politics. but in his recent book, the indian external affairs administered jason. how to, bro, with that the, in get russia relationship is quote, the subject of attention, not because it has changed, but because it has not. what do you think allowed for these non change given that the 2 countries internally have just formed a great deal wanting to do a new role? so you mentioned a couple of times that the word has changed as she has seen, india has st. but india, she had a lease, has continued to be a stable fact of international relations. because of, you know, as you know, the india in india and relations into so which is

a very strong you will know after that you will not for the soviet break. uh, when what day deletion was almost uh did you know if any, because any is as always, you know, they used to be in the as number one, trading partner on the specific trading of england, which we had in the ninety's. the older 2 disappeared or what do you, what able to put together? so to me, to switch to a mac and as i'm off to this, that at least the political and strategic relations became a little less close. and then uh, defense continue to be very important data. yeah. because most of the indian platforms will continue to be, as i see. and then deal is also able to find certain uh, areas, particularly nuclear energy space. we're still, you know, many of the, but, you know, the kind of cooperation was built. but, you know, the private sector team simply didn't work because she was looking more towards the west india things change. and he was also looking for new markers,

people those what operating and that shouldn't market earlier or in the soviet market. those things simply didn't exist then. but you know, the 1st factor which was built over decades between india and russia that continue . what can i ask you about that? because clearly and then what endanger politics? uh, there there is a very huge shortage. i would even say of the lack of trust the countries have moved away from that paradigm. and yet, i think the relationship between india and china demonstrates that you know, these off to try to preserve it, even when commercial ties and the burgeoning. what do you think this stability, it allows the to countries, is it why is it worth while to try to cultivate it in, in your relationship? because it was, it was very deep rooted. it's not just only about the between just few interests. it was not just only about few political lead us all to political parties. in fact,

it opens up in this. so the became india as plus family history in 2014. he was never did in the union government, he wasn't the state leader. and at that time, it was expected that you know, he may not the, the be very effective, the flooding bodies, the plan. and i remember, you know, he had 1st meeting with the president 14 and somebody asked him about the india unless she had relations. and it'll naturally that his 1st reaction was that if you ask anybody in india, even a child who is your best friend and also would be less. yeah. so he likes deep polluted. that kind of a relationship where it's not just only defense forces, it's sort of just on the or the political leaders at the jungle. mostly will people take the cache that will fit and that perhaps works with all, you know,

all the policy makers as well. so they feel that whenever there was a political movement in india's history, whether it was 1971 in the uh, you know, in the buckler, they sure, i mean 90 about this done situation or later on when it was the issue of just in case we it was a, is the united nations or any particular time in india needed somebody at the united nations security console or any other international for them. uh, she has to do with india. so similarly, the same situation when you know, uh, happened during the green crisis. uh, so even the sentiment that to us, you know, there might be certain issues there, but you don't hear the fan which is at a certain problem and a lot it was very difficult for writing the western countries to understand the one day just and they look like disappointed perhaps because they do not develop relationship in such a fashion. because as you pointed out, it takes time, years, decades to actually cultivate,

then sometimes forego immediate interest in order to you know, show respect to the connections that you force them interesting way. and after the, you know, you mentioned some difficult times in the rushes history in the rest of the recent history and that relationship, they don't because it allows with russia to uh, reorient it's oil uh, exports very swiftly to india is also grayed benefit if i'm not mistaken the russian, our cause for 40 percent off in this oil imports compared to less than one before the war. now, what's interesting about it is that a lot of this oil, as far as understanding, gets refined in it and then being the adult as you to see where you're at the, in the union. and this is the, i have the question i have for you. how do you understand this european positioning sort of ascending this energy sources circulating around the entire continent and losing what's important added value in the process?

because a lot of those profits they used to be earned by the europeans themselves, but now they're ready to pay the pay exorbitant prices for the same source of energy. but with the, well, i think this is the, i mean, you know, when the, the, hey, you know, the ukraine was started obviously they, they had certain issues and this didn't believe continue to have those issues. and then they decided that they have to move away from that issue and energy sources and that they didn't, they didn't, was wanting, this is selling, the political decision was taken. so slowly and slowly this started moving away and that created the situation in which a lot of she also have to because she continued to be a major producer and explore the off energy. so for the europeans in old buying so that she obviously have to find new market. so china wasn't milwaukee. india wasn't on the market. but the only thing was the problem is how do you really oh, suddenly created that link?

it is and the data will be much higher because it is also closer to identify the sources in the middle east. uh so uh, maybe the fact of the freight would be added into this. but then you have the discount good price that sets us. we'd been searching back that was the one that was a political really to do 2nd thing. they were able to do it. and then there was also, i'm president of sanctions against russia. so some hope all is the makers in both the country, then agencies in both the countries. they have been also able to well codes certain mechanism. the payments are made and still things are continuing. of course, it's may not be very easy, i can understand it may be very complicated situation, but you know, it has to be done. so it means that the political will and the question you us on bearable delay, but really nipple it in that sounds very positive with only one for the europeans then for the global market. because of that i should, oil was not there in the global market. uh, there will be much more will activity. there will be much for the price. would that

be much higher than the i'm the consumers in europe also would have paid much i hired right than what actually they are getting. know. so we, this is india. they might do this as indiana says that, you know, india still buying the be the oil from last year, but the day that they buy and what are you for. and most of the nice, the, a global energy market and they themselves are buying that does central india play to very important stabilize the goal? i would say, uh, i think it also comes tre. sounds that the loud for a sort of a just distribution of economic activity because you're a but please before the kinetic phase of this conflict, accumulated a lot of um, added value benefits. and now you know, that being shifted to other countries like india. and i suppose this may trickle down from the energy sector to other industries as well because you need energy in order to develop your economies. now, do you think this situation is permanent, do things? they are opinions forever. real uh,

sort of stay of this kind of arrangement or is there a potential for turning around? well, there's a potential of everything a little, but the woman looks like that for the next couple of years. things are going to be the way things are happening because you would have 5 women say it'll take you. that is all you know, uh the ukraine case, but, you know, i mean the sanction that's a white thing to do for some more time. similarly, europeans may also, politically, they have decided that there's also no pressure from the united states because i just states itself is becoming a major analogy producer. so they would, they would like to, i mean, your appeals to buy more energy from the united states. then from last year and in the process in the last 2 years, new liquid is also being created. so the same situation i've seen so it may not be exactly the same situation, say after 2 years after, even if things are normalized and the process. uh, it does more than uh,

processing capacity, is it india, there's a new routes would be created, new connectivity channels would be created all because of the williams up there. so many of those got indoors which india and that she had been talking for years. some of the things mand materialize, because all the food williams are there are many things that are uncertain, but this is also with some new opportunities for india, and that she had to work together in many new areas, as well as a minister of foreign affairs minister described in this strategy as engaging with america, managing relations with china, strengthening ties with you are pressuring russia, bringing japan into play, drawing in our neighbors, extending our regional influence and expanding our traditional basis of support. that's a very ambitious and very multi faceted plan. what do you think is it's we can still perhaps most tenuous point? no, i don't think anything requested and this is, i mean the 12 a one all at the old times, but it's not the possible. no,

but i don't see any contradiction here in this is, i mean, what you can see that do 1st thing is that typically, i mean some, some people said that it is going from non alignment, the loyalty alignment. but i think it's not even a line, but it's low to engagement because alignment and you have not a lining with anybody. it's not even any country because india cannot be even if you're working in the pacific the day united states. india is not in a like a like, you know, uh, the, you know, unlike, uh, say, the other partners, you know, whether japan or, or the state of the another, those who come with the united states and even that is, i'm thinking end up as a big or not, but india of a lot, but there are certain interests. and because of the initial, the china, particularly these kind of narrative, these kind of things do work. uh, so this has been working at the same time. it is also playing a very important role in all within the global sold because global, so today is not what it used to be. installed a bunch of fuel developing countries. we didn't global, so did a heavy rates,

politically, economically, strategically. and a, you look at any numbers that they look at play, and you look at investments, you look at the, you know, many of the didn't even even services if technology, the global sold countries on the vault. and so in the i can work with the neighbors, the global assault and also the other players. so that's the same b shift, but yes, i mean, so far, i mean the it as well for the okay. now let me ask you one last question because in this a great list of objectives, the administer didn't mention, pack is done by a name. and there is also no thing about managing historical amenities. how do seem developing, do you think this issue will be addressed? primarily on a biological basis or has it now become a sort of a small thing within that much broader puzzle as well. i think if india has any ambition to be an important player within asia and at the global level,

so you cannot see any player varies important drone on that emission. so if you do not see any resolved, your issue has been engineered before. so to mid to the, uh, india has to find ways to work, but to kind of dimension into focused on but the sofa, i think situation has not really these that please don't see any effect to, you know, look, i know for the nations with others of the, they've bought those boxes done within the largest scale. things may not be that important. but i think for your, the largest role ambition, you have to find certain things also within your neighborhood. and it has to be done by that lead. that has been the policy to out well professor, we have to leave it there. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much for that. i do think pleasure talking to you and thank you for watching hope to hear again on worlds apart.

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got enough lemme see was more than that when you're the most of the cases, kids for committing a crime by forming a school in rushes and battle, reaching to draw attention away from the credit to an execution to civilians in a nearby area. a warning, the pressing image of the above the deep uniforms to the attack in the coast screen to come to the off. the russian takes 20 locals who apparently investigated by ukrainian pool. the despite ac fine, garza is who else that stuff is sold on palestine killing at least 5 people across