what mutual cooperation and mutual destruction of things roughly a quote, which way are the scales of history likely to tip? i'll discuss that. i'm now joined by and we're shown such that a professor of the give a hello matter university in in your daily professor is great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me. now, most jo, political discussions, this, these are colored by the events in the united states and the integration of donald trump and give them their dramatic or a times erratic nature. i think it gives many of the nation's an opportunity to have a sober look at the policies and decide which way they want to go. perhaps, towards more self grounding, deciding we should relationship. they want to keep fresh relationship. they want to change. and i want to look at the interest policy from that perspective. let's start at a potential for change. i know that the relationship between indian china has long

been the testy, but over the last couple of months they have been notable signs of warming up. are you more hopeful or skeptical about these 2 large nations, developing a somewhat more harmonious way of relating how to deal with china? arising china assertive china is a major challenge for or also rising in a certain in their while india is not a so to but india is designated to these izing. so, so this has been a challenge for india. and this is also a good opportunity because you know, these 2 economies are logical enemies next to each other going very fast. so they can also feed each other know, despite all the challenges all the problem between the and the last few years had be china. still, last year china was india's number one trading partner. and for the,

for the us is d d a is 40 years that china has been india as one of the top trading partners. so, so there, he's also being the long disputed border. so for the last few years, things of deteriorated, but know as you're likely mentioning the last few years, last 2 months that had been certain positive developments into the as we speak in deals for them is that good see is visiting china. so there has been, uh, i would say, oh, cautiously i would say one is of the mistake that things would uh come to some kind of normalcy via we know that the border issue was a long time to be as owned, but it can be, it is old uh by talking. so one can only hope that you know, things would be mode or more or less in a situation where you have certain uh, issues to be resolved. but the same time you can start working as a good neighbors. and i'm working on many, all of those issues because china could also provide many opportunities to and i

heard the experts say that the china india relationship says the cold war has, has full this assault provoke repeat pattern when there would be some positive steps. and then they would invariably be in a gated by some a dispute later on dissing this or recent positive moves a still within the cycle or they have some potential of breaking through it. no, i would think that you know, so, so it has be now decided at the top level that we have to find certain solution to the problem. um and uh, i think a, they have talked through this process because both countries as a then what your leadership. so despite all of the problems we had done and still i think the multiple quite, quite shifting that, that he should not go out of control. and others should not take advantage of the problems between india and china. so i think i'm optimistic that hopefully we'll

see some positive development. now you mention some talks of the top level and of course there was a major meeting between 5 minutes to marty and president a she which took place here in the restaurant. i or i wonder though, if you take this positive development as of this think in its own driven by its own, uh, dynamic, or is it more an influence or 5 global events, for example, or response to what's going on across the ocean in the united states. no, i think is a combination of all the factors because it takes care of what happened in isolation. what is happening in the order of what is happening in the united states? what is happening in the asia? and you have to look at all those issues carefully and then you have to calculate, there is uncertainty. as you said, you know, even did i did states under dump, it's unpredictable how he was going to react at the same time. there are serious

issues at the global level and you have many conflicts. and as we have seen, the global institutions of government is whether you look at the united nation security calling. so in the all you look at the w deal, all you look at the, you know, w actually when the licenses i moved out. and you know, all these 2 shows have not been very effective. so obviously you have to look at those situations and then try to see that, you know, there are other countries in which, how many india is impacted. i mean, despite all the, uh, i mean what problem, nobody had the china, but you know, what country is not just only with us. yeah. you would with the west. how many days these liberty having good relations? no more than 35 strategic partnership. so you have to see really just slightly at the same time that also certain principles. so i think this is of a, in there is looking at a situation. now the chinese policies south time, is described as one of a tactical expediency when china will forge 2nd agreements,

violate some parts and tried to sort of cover it out with the reassurances at the high level. do you think there's any difference in how china relates to its various partners and which agreements it's choose us to uphold a perfectly or let's say for goal, this is what, in fact, is it happening because, you know, many of the agreements which india and china put in place uh, the agreed that the border there will be tranquillity, bees till that time we are able to resolve this issue. now that continued for quite some time uh, at least uh 20 years plus. but suddenly, some of those times the deal, seeing that they were why they did buy china, the china will have its own explanation. but the problem, but the fact of the matter that was that in fact the mattress tell you that will couple of years. relations between india and china has not been normally,

and we have to bring it back to the normal se, but, and that's raises the question of what is normal because i mean, the normal means that you have certain issues because it will board the countries are going well, the whole country is agreeing at the same place, so so did a bone to be tension. so in certain areas, in which both of them will be cooperating like in trade and investment in technology, and it makes you over to do it, which we are doing. and we can do even more then the also it is, it is going to be 2nd competition because both of them are also going, they would be looking for markets. they would be looking for different investment there and also looking for certain influence. so there is also going to be in that sense competition, but that also, but it should not really become conflict. so, so this is what you know. so it means india, china, the nation. they look into 2 policies, that kind of thing, the competition, cooperation conflict. so this is what has been the case for quite some time. so

sometimes you have more cooperation, less config, sometime like velocity is you have slightly more conflicting issues, but then the cooperation is less. but you know, this is all, you have to manage the, your interest, and you're brought up by the american formula. 3, see, they all fund sided into relation to the china. i wonder if you think that india, or perhaps even russia to some extent, derive any indirect benefit from the increased attention that the united states is now paying to china. and do you think it change the way a china behaves itself, both in the region and in the world? well, i mean, obviously other countries would like to take advantage of the united states. as you mention, if there is a certain tensions between india and china says they also have that issues, which i know they would like to use this uh to use this particular attention to the entered one page at the same james as india has the shoes,

which i know for the last few years, so the kind of thing shows which is building between the united states and china. india also would like would be a good one dish on that. den, sure if it's fair and the same time, this is also happening that uh, the kind of problems you had and all the rest bullets with the auto and with the united states and sanctions. this has brought china and ratio to gather, which is creating certain um, what is in india that to put, i shall be comes to closer to china, which is not really very good for us in the long run. because, you know, we feel that, that i should be playing much more independent or be good role and that's a little bit of it. so it'll decent whole things that'd been happening with every country and looking at their own interest is trying to you know, use that particular situation. but we have a careful that we should not be used by others of, you know, in this kind of situation. so be tied to resulting by actually the china and india has also sought to meet and get this. china is factored by developing ties with the

wes thing. the previous administrations have been uh, courting uh new daily, quite extensively. i would even say, but being to enjoy the very special trip and then to for quite some time, do think that will continue under the trump registration. what do, at this point, just highlighting the so many interests between india and united states, which i'm kind of was, and values of assertive china is also one of those reasons that both of them come together because it's very difficult for one independent country to kind of the violence, china, nobody can stop the eyes of china, you know, and that's an independent factor. but at least you, you tied to the buttons that you know, you had interest, so not in the home to buy that his eyes. so both are trying to work on, so that's why you have the card letters a good idea, and then you also have the end up as a economically it will. then you'll also have within the past, if it gets and they'll make fame with different things. you're talking, so all those things are basically time duty by

a certain things working with the united states. yes. of all, but uh, does the united states commit to all those forms? because i mean, judging from the 1st, most of the trump administration, and there's some, some controversy within that administration and looks like perhaps the relationship with indian male. so change because i heard that there are some major disputes over the age. one b visas. uh 70 percent of ways go to highly skilled workers who happen to be mostly indians in the past. if that issue is change, do you think it will affect the emotional temperature between the 2 always a little i mean dump was there also earlier for 5 years. uh, this is one area in which of, i think one can see the slight freak shows that a certain interest. i mean, it's not just only this i'm, that would be that if so i knew when somebody had also he was certain dad was sending to you. but i think that, and i think the indian policy makers are quite confident that they will be able to

manage those of one. i mean, how do you negotiate with them on certain issues? all you'll give, set them given think that, you know, uh from certain specific products. uh, also to another thing which i don't think just to united states, you might just allow those things to happen. but those are not going to affect fundamentally, i would say in the united states relations because it's such an interest at this point of time, the can watching and it didn't for them. and just to mention that the before to them to go that to many countries in the world does what it, what it from to the terms coming to the united states. but india is on one of them now, and there is an old saying political circles, that's when the united states needs as the world catches a cold. and if you take that matter for a little bit further, i think the united states, right? that was not just sneezing. it said it in a very high fever with some a rabbit called convulsions. but you're saying that the indians and not worried

how is india trying to sort of protect itself from the erotic nation of that the ministration or the you don't believe perhaps that it's erratic? no, i mean it's unpredictable. probably that's quite too. but to, from the positive experience that there could be certain issues in which you could result. and then there's also a factor that is also good person to come and see between the but i'm this, i'm all the addresses and some are things can go wrong. some of it, i mean nobody can be totally 100 percent. sure about this, but they are not see any of that. what it as like the order be under what it about on the administration and many others perhaps you heard, i think, well professor, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments section the

to take a fresh look around as a life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions fixtures designed to simplify. it will confuse who really wants a better wills, and is it just because it shows you fractured images, presented to this, but can you see through their illusions, going underground? can the welcome back to was a part of it. of course, john says, deborah, a professor at jo,

how long after university in new dalliance professor and before the break, we discussed many changes at a now happening into a politics. but in his recent book, the indian external affairs administered jason how to grow that the india russia relationship is quote, the subject of attention. not because it has changed, but because it has not. what do you think allowed for these non change given that the 2 countries internally have just formed a great deal wanting to do audio? also, you mentioned a couple of times that the, the word has changed as i, she has seen, india has st. but india does she have the lease has continued to be a stable fact of international relations because of, you know, as you know, the india in india, the relations into so which one is a very strong a you and after that you will not for the so we pick up when what day relations are

the most uh, you know, affinity because any is solely doing. they used to be in the as number one, trading partner on the specific trading of england, which we had in the ninety's, the whole to disappeared. but we weren't able to put together so to me is switching the mechanism off to this that at least the political and strategic relations became a little less close. and then uh, defense continue to be very important data. yeah, because most of the indian platforms will continue to be russian then in deal is also able to find certain uh, areas, particularly nuclear energy space. we're still, you know, many of the, the kind of cooperation was built but to the private sector attain simply didn't work because it actually, it was looking more towards the west india things change. and then was also looking for new markers, people those what operating and that i should market earlier or in the soviet market. those things simply didn't exist then. but you know,

the 1st factor which was built over decades between india and russia that continue . what can i ask you about that? because clearly in what in danger of politics uh there, there is a very huge shortage. i would even say of the lack of trust the countries have moved away from the paradigm. and yet, i think the relationship between india and china demonstrates that, you know, if things off to try to preserve it, even when commercial ties and the burgeoning, what do you think this stability at allows the to countries? is it why is it worth while to try to cultivate it in, in your relationship? because it was, it was very deep rooted. it's not just only about the between just few interests. it was not just only about few political lead us all to political parties. in fact, it opens up in this. so the became india as plus family history in 2014. he

was never did in the union government, he wasn't the state leader. and at that time, it was expected the to a human, not the, the be very effective, the flooding policy player. and i remember, you know, he had 1st meeting with the president 14 and somebody asked him about the india or she and relations. and it'll naturally that his 1st reaction was that if you ask anybody in india, even a child who is your best friend and also would be less. yeah. so he likes deep polluted. that kind of a relationship with it's, it's not just only defense forces, it's sort of just on the political leaders at the general mosque level. people take the cache, the little fed and that perhaps works with all, you know, all the policy makers as well. so they feel that whenever there was a political movement in india's history, whether it was 1971 in the or, you know,

in the butler, they sure, i mean 90. i bought this done situation or later on when it was a issue of just in case we, it was a of the united nations or any particular time in india needed somebody at the united nations security console or any other international for them. a she has to do with india. so similarly the same situation when you know, uh, happened during the green crisis. uh, so is the sentiment that is, you know, there might be certain issues there, but you know, here the fan which is at a certain problem. and the it was a difficult for whitening the western countries to understand the one day just. and they look like disappointed perhaps because they do not develop relationship in such a fashion. because as you pointed out, it takes time, years, decades to actually cultivate and sometimes forego. immediate interest in order to, you know, show respect to the connections that uh,

you force them interesting way. and after the, you know, you mentioned some difficult times in the rush us history in the rest of the recent history. and that's the relationship paid off because it allowed the russia to reorient. if oil uh, exports varies, 52 inches, also a great benefit if i'm not mistaken. the russian, our calls for 40 percent off in this oil imports compared to less than one before the war. now, what's interesting about it is that a lot of this oil, as far as understanding, gets refined in india and then being the adult as you typically are at the, in the union. and this is, i have the question i have for you. how do you understand this european positioning sort of ascending this energy sources circulating around the entire continent and losing what's important added value in the process? because a lot of those profits they used to be earned by the europeans themselves, but now they're ready to pay. and pay exorbitant prices for the same sources of

energy both with uh, well, i think this is the, i mean, you know, when the, the, hey, you know, the ukraine was started. obviously they, they had certain issues and distant believe continued to have those issues. and then they decided that they have to move away from that issue and energy sources and that they didn't, they didn't, was one of the, so selling the political decision was taken. so slowly and slowly this started moving away and that created a situation in which a lot of she also have to because she continued to be a major producer and explore the off energy. so for the europeans and not buying so that she'll be as they have to find new markets. so china wasn't milwaukee, india wasn't the market. but the only thing was the problem was how do you really oh, suddenly created that link? it is. and the data will be much higher because it is also closer to identify that the source isn't the lease. uh so uh,

maybe the fact of the freight would be added into this. but then you have the discount, good price, etc. us. we'd be certain back that was the one that was a political to do 2nd thing. they were able to do it. and then there was also, i'm president of sanctions against russia. so some hope all is see may, it goes in both the country, then agencies in both the countries. they had been also able to, well code certain mechanism. the payments are made and still things are continuing of cause it's may not be very easy. i can understand it may be very complicated situation, but you know, it has to be done. so it means that there is a political will and the question you us on bearable delay. but during the planning that sounds very positive with only one for the europeans and for the global market . because of that i should, oil was not there in the global market. uh, there will be much more will activity. there will be much for the price. would that be much higher than the i'm the consumers in europe also would have paid much higher price than what actually they are getting. know. so we, this is india,

they might fitness as indiana. and so that, you know, india still buying the be the oil from last year, but the day that they buy and what are you for. and most of the nice the global energy blockage and they themselves are buying that. and it does centrally via plate, a very important stabilizing goal. i would say, i think it also comes tre. sounds that the loud for a sort of a, just a distribution of economic activity because you're a but please, before the kinetic phase of this conflict, accumulated a lot of the added value benefits. and now you know that being shifted to other countries like india, and i suppose this may trickle down from the energy sector to other industries as well because you need energy in order to develop your economies. now do you think this situation is permanent to do things the europeans forever real uh, sort of stay of this kind of arrangement, or is there a potential for turning around? well, there's a potential of everything a little,

but the at the moment looks like that for the next couple of years. things are going to be the way things are happening because you wouldn't have 516, but it will uh, take you. that is all, you know, uh the ukraine case, but, you know, i mean the sanction that's a white thing to do for some more time. similarly, europeans may also, politically, they have decided that there's also no pressure from the united states because i just states itself is becoming a major analogy producer. so they would, they would like to, i mean, your appeals to buy more energy from the united states. then from last year and in the process of the last 2 years, new liquid is also being created sooner. the same situation i've seen so it may not be exactly the same situation, say after 2 years after, even if things are normalized and the process. uh, it does more than uh, processing capacity is in india, there's a new rewards would be created. new connectivity channels would be created though because of the williams up there. so many of those got indoors which india and that

she had been talking for years. some of the things mand materialize, because all the 3 and williams are there are things that are uncertain. but this is also with some new opportunities for the indians that she had to work together in many new areas, as well as a minister of foreign affairs minister described into strategy as engaging with america. managing relations with china, strengthening ties with you are pressuring russia, bringing japan into play, drawing in our neighbors, extending our regional influence and expanding our traditional basis of support. that's a very ambitious and very multi faceted plan. what do you think is it's we can still perhaps most tenuous point. you know, i don't see anything request here and this is, i mean the 12 a one all at the old times, but it's not the possible. no, but i don't see any contradiction here in this is, i mean, what you can see that you 1st thing is that typically, i mean some,

some people said that it is going from the other line meant the what is the alignment? but i think it's not even a line, but it's worthy engagement because the line with india is not a lining with anybody. it's an order that any country because india cannot be, even if you're working in the pacific the day united states. india is built into like a, like, you know, uh the, you know, a like, uh say, the other partners, you know, whether japan or auto stream, the other, those will come with the united states. any that is i'm thinking in the pacific or not. but do you, do, you have a lot, but there are certain interests and because of things. so the china, particularly these kind of narrative, these kind of things do well. uh, so this has been working at the same time. it is also playing a very important role in all within the global sold because global, so today is not what it used to be. it started bunch of, you're developing countries. we didn't global, so did a heavy rates, politically, economically, strategically. and a, you look at any numbers that they look at play,

and you look at investments, you look at the, you know, many of the didn't even even services if technology, the global sold countries are becoming important. so in the i can work with the neighbors and the global assault and also the other players. so it's the same b shift, but yes, i mean, so far, i mean the it as well for the okay. now let me ask you one last question because in this a great list of objectives, the administer didn't mention, pack is done by name. and there is also no thing about managing historical amenities. how do seem developing, do you think this issue will be addressed primarily on a battle actual basis, or has it now become a sort of a small thing within the much broader puzzle as well? i think if india has any ambition to be an important player within asia and at the global level, so you cannot see any players varies important drone or that emission. so if you do

not see any dissolved deal issues, been engineered before. so to mentally india has to find ways to work, but to kind of dimension into focused on but the sofa, i think situation has not really these that please between all it's very effective . you know, look, i know for the nations with others of the they've bought those boxes done within the largest scale. things may not be that important. but i think for your, the largest role ambition, you have to find certain things also within your neighborhood. and it has to be done by that lead. that has been the policy to out well, professor, we have to leave it there. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much for that. i do take pleasure talking to you and thank you for watching hope to hear again on worlds apart the, the, the,

the alternate interest including the, this one was broken into components. here's the thing that it doesn't include all these things. gradually taking the most of us to call yourself with you and 4 of you should see in the document. what's the rubbish to rubbish cubes that are in the videos and it goes out on the stump. least i have taken poison question. your quote for exposure to media is to me and that that will still we should, that they will glad shoppers test, which is to share a worse name. you're still doing. i'm just going in was that all in this way and that if they're doing a set of resettlement on here and there must be sort of, you know, near through us, considerably only service your thought. the

most good cases, the ukraine, you know, but the of can we thing a whirl, wind, my plumbing school with the new russians in battle, post region, to draw attention away from the torture and execution of civilians. my gifts forces in a nearby area, warnings, distressing images. you told me to attack in the coast region coming shortly out. the rest of the stuff is about 22 locals who are powered in massachusetts. fine for you for the despite the states find goals are as well staffing efforts to salt on palestine, killing these 5 people across the west bank and in the top stories.