feel socrates in and jumping out to mock this event. an official ceremony was held at the base in the presence of president my how much interest they be beautiful so much for us. you'll see it. okay, so you go, that's the sort of the, that is i mean and then cut the sovereignty has never been a gift. it is a conquests to the result of struggles, sacrifices, and a constant commitment. our ancestors fought to give us this freedom so that we could live in an independent, proud and respected nation. it is our responsibility to preserve this heritage and pass it on to future generations to live in the streets of and german. not many citizens express the satisfaction for them. this departure is synonymous with we gain software and take the new dynamics of the country and the problem the i see the decision for the departure of french troops is good news for us. cisco, i think is excellent. see marshall mohammed interest debbie who took a good initiative. we the chatty and people are very happy about this guy. as

a citizen, i raised my voice with those who made this decision. i am really delighted the french army had to leave chad in territory, and our troops are taking over for the larger america. so i'm, i'm, i would have preferred if diplomatic relations with france were directly stopped. we want the total departure of france with no collaboration upfront. it would be a very good thing for the child in people who love what us, you know, what's the price was initiated on november 28th. when the child in government announced the termination of ministry agreements with france, 2 months later, this decision has become a reality of next are to international worlds apart. bye for now. the

hello and welcome to was a part in jo pulls to explore them in any other area of human activity, friendship and ality come at a price that's particularly true about the relationship between great powers which now waste and you inflection point with the potential for mutual cooperation and mutual destruction being roughly equal, which way are the scales of history likely to to, i'll discuss that. i'm now joined by and we're shown such that a professor of the give a hello natalie university in new delhi professor is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me. now, most geo political discussions, this these colored by the events in the united states and the integration of donald trump. and given the dramatic or a times erratic nature, i think it gives many of the nation's an opportunity to have a silver and look at the policies and decide which way they want to go. perhaps

towards more self grounding and deciding we should relationship, they want to keep fresh relationship, they want to change. and i want to look at in this policy from that perspective. let's start at a potential for change. i know that the relationship between india and china has long been throughout the testy, but over the last couple of months they have been notable signs of warming up. are you more hopeful or skeptical about these 2 large nations developing and sound with more harmonious way of relating how to deal with china? arising china assertive china is a major challenge for or also rising in a certain there was india is not a so to, but india is designated to these ising. uh, so this has been a challenge for india. and this is also a good opportunity because you know,

these 2 economies are logical enemies next to each other going very fast. so they can also feed each other. no, despite all the challenges, all the problem between the and the last few years had be china. still, last year, china was india's number one trading buckner. and for the, for the last 15 years, 40 years that china has been, india is one of the top for trading partners. so there, he's also being the long disputed border of. so for the last 2 years, things of deteriorated, but know as you're likely mentioning the last few years, last few months that had been certain positive developments into that as we speak in deals for them is that good see is visiting china. so there has been, uh, i would say of cautiously i would say one is optimistic that things would uh come to some kind of normality we're. we know that the border issue was

a long time to be his own, but it can be, it is old. uh, by talking. so one can only hope that you know, things would be more the more or less in a situation where you have certain uh, issues to be resolved. but at the same time you can start working as a good neighbors. and i'm working on many or those issues because china can also provide many opportunities between i heard the experts say that the china india relationship says the cold war has, has followed this assault per woke repeated pattern when there would be some positive steps. and then they would invariably be in a gated by some a dispute later on this thing, these are recent uh positive moves, a still within that cycle or they have some potential for breaking through it. i know i will think that you know, so, so it has be now decided at the top level that we have to find certain solution to the problem. um and uh, i think a,

they have taught through this process because both countries as a then what your leadership. so despite all the problems we had done and still i think the multiple quite, quite choosing that that he should not go out of control. and others should not take advantage of the problems between india and china. so i think i'm optimistic that hopefully we'll see some positive developments. now you mention some talks of the top level, and of course there was a major meeting between 5 minutes to model the president, she, which took place here in russia. as i wonder though, if you take this positive development as of this think in its own driven by its own, uh, dynamic, or is it more an influence or 5 global advance, for example, or response to what's going on across the ocean in the united states? no, i think is a combination of all the factors because it takes care of what happened in isolation. what is happening in the order of what is happening in the united states?

what is happening in the asia? and you have to look at all those issues carefully and then you have to calculate, there is onset entity, as you said, you know, you injured. i did, states under dump, it's unpredictable how he was going to react at the same time. there are serious issues at the global level and you have many conflicts. and as we have seen, the global institutions of government is whether you look at the united nation security constantly. all you look at the w deal. all you look at the, you know, w actually when united states and moved out. and you know, all these 2 shows have not been very effective. so obviously you have to look at those situations and then try to see that, you know, there are other countries in which, how many india is impacted. i mean, despite all the, i mean what problem behind the china but, you know, with countries and cannot just only with us, you know,

you would with the list how many days these maybe having good relations, no more than 35 digit partnership. so you have to see really just slightly at the same time that also certain principles. so i think this is of a india is looking at the situation. now the, the chinese policy is sometimes described as one of a tactical expediency when china will, for certain agreements, violate some parts and tried to sort of cover it out with the reassurances at the high level. do you think there's any difference in how china relates to its various partners and which agreements it's choose as to oppose all perfectly or let's say for goal, this is what, in fact is it happening because, you know, many of the agreements which india and china put in place uh, d, i agreed that the ball good. it'll be tranquillity piece till that time we are able to resolve this issue. now that continued for quite some time uh,

at least uh 20 years plus. but suddenly, some of those times the deal, seeing that they were why they did buy china, the china will have its own explanation. but the problem, but the fact of the murder was that, in fact, the mattress still is that's a couple of years. relations between india and china has not been normally and we have to bring it back to the normal mileage. but, and that's the raises the question of what is normal because i'm in a normal means that you have certain issues because it, all the countries are doing well. the whole country is a bullying at the same place. uh, so there are bound to be tension. so in certain areas, in which both of them will be cooperating like in trade and investment in technology and it makes you over to doing which we are doing. and we can do even more then the also it is, it is going to be certain competition because both of them are also going that would be looking for markets. they would be looking for different investment there

and also looking for certain influence. so there is also going to be in that sense competition, but that also, but it should not really become conflict. so, so this is what, you know, so busy in the china, the nation, they look into 2 policies, that kind of thing, the competition, cooperation conflict. so this is what has been the case for quite some time. so sometimes you have more cooperation, less config, sometime like velocity is you have slightly more conflicting issues, but then the cooperation is less. but uh, you know, this is all you have to manage the, your interest and you brought on by the american formula of the receipt. and they all fund sided into relation to, to china. i wonder if you think that india, or perhaps even russia to some extent, derive any indirect benefit from the increased attention that the united states has now paying to china. and do you think it change the way a china behaves itself, both in the region and in the world? well, i mean, obviously uh other countries would like to take advantage of the,

the united states. as you have mentioned, if there is a certain tensions between india and china, so they also have that issues which i know they would like to use this uh to use this particular attention to the entered one page. at the same times as india has the shoes, which i know for the last 2 years. so the kind of thing shows which is building between the united states and china. india also would like to take that one dish on that den. sure, if it's fair, i find the same thing. this is also happening that uh, the kind of problems you had and all the rest bullets with the auto and with the united states and sanctions. this has brought china and russia together, which is creating certain um, what is in india that too, for that shelby comes to closer to china, which is not really very good for us in the long run. because you know, the feel that the, that i, she, i should be playing much more independent will be good. rolling does a little bit of it sort of decent whole things that'd be happening with every

country looking at their own interest is trying to, you know, use that particular situation. but we have a careful that we should not be used by others. but you know, in this kind of situation, so we've tried to resulting by let, to leave the china and india has also sought to mitigate this. china is factored by developing ties with the west. i think the previous administrations have been the courting and you daily quite extensively. i would even say, but the india enjoy the very special trip and then to for quite some time. do think that will continue on the, the trump of industries. and what do, at this point, just highlighting the so many interests between india and united states which have kind of was and values of assertive china is also one of those, these of the, both of them come together because it's very difficult for one independent country to kind of the violence, china, nobody can stop the eyes of china, how you feel, and that's an independent factor. but at least you, you tied to the butler's that,

you know, you went into some notes in the home to buy that his eyes. so both are trying to work on, so that's why you have the project was a good idea and then you also have the end up as a economic plan. well then you also have within the pacific at the nomic fan, well, different things you're talking. so all those things are basically time to the bell of certain things, working with the united states. yes. football, but uh, does the united states commit to all those forms? because i mean, judging from the 1st, most of the trump administration, and there's some, some controversy within that administration. it looks like perhaps the relationship with indian males. so change because i heard that there are some major disputes over the h one b visas, uh 70 percent of ways go to higher skilled workers who happened to be mostly indians in the past. if that issue is change, do you think it will affect the emotional temperature between the 2? i mean there's a little, i mean dump was it also earlier for 5 years?

uh, this is one area in which of, i think one can said the slide slick shows that a certain interest. i mean it's not just only this i'm, there could be daddy. so i knew when somebody had also he was out and dad was sending the but i did, did a, i think the indian policy makers are quite confident that they will be able to manage those of one. i mean, how do you negotiate with them on certain issues? all you'll give, set them given dictate, you know, uh if i'm certain specific products or certain other things, which i don't think just to united states, you might just allow those things to happens. but those are not going to affect fundamentally, i would say in the united states relations because it's such an interest at this point a time the can watching. and it didn't for them. and just to mention that the before to them to go that to many countries in the world does what it, what it from to the terms coming to the united states. but it is not one of them.

now there is an old saying political circles, that's when the united states needs as the world catches a cold. and if you take that matter for a little bit further, i think the united states, right, that was not just sneezing. it said it in a very high fever with some a radical come convulsions, but you're saying that the indians and not worried and how is india trying to sort of protect itself from the erotic nation of that the ministration or the you don't believe perhaps that it's erratic, no, i mean, it's unpredictable probably that's quite too. but to, from the positive speed use that there could be certain issues in which you could result. and then there's also a factor that is also good person to come and see between the brand this i'm all the addresses and from how you can go to on some of it. i mean, nobody can be totally 100 percent. sure about this, but they are not see any of that. what it as like the order be under what it about on the administration and many others perhaps you heard, i say, well professor,

we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station. the welcome back to was a part today. of course, john says deborah, a professor at general, how long after university in new daily professor, before the break, we discussed many changes at a now happening into a politics. but in his recent book, the indian external affairs administered jason how to grow that the india russia relationship is quote, the subject of attention. not because it has changed, but because it has not. what do you think allowed for these non change given that the 2 countries internally have transformed a great deal? what didn't they do on the other one? so you mentioned a couple of times that the word has changed. as i see it has seen india has

st. but india does she have the lease has continued to be a stable fact of international relations. because of, you know, as you know, the india in india, the relations into so with you and have a very strong for you. and after that, you will not for the so we pick up whenever titillation was out of most, uh, you know, affinity because any, it is only doing, they used to be in the as number one, trading partner on the specific uh, trading of england, which we had in the ninety's, the older 2 disappeared, but we weren't able to put together. so to me is switching the mechanism off conveys that at least the political and strategic relations became a little less close and then uh, defense continue to be very important data. yeah. because most of the indian platforms will continue to be as i see. and then in deal is also able to find certain uh, areas, particularly nuclear energy space. we're still, you know, many of the, but,

you know, the kind of cooperation was built, but you know, the private sector attain simply didn't work because it actually, it was looking more towards the west india things change. and there was also looking for new markers, people, those what operating and that i should market earlier or in the soviet market. those things simply didn't exist then. but you know, the 1st factor which was built over decades between india and russia, that continued, can i ask you about that? because clearly in what, in danger, politics uh there, there is a very huge shortage. i would even say of the lack of trust the countries have moved away from that paradigm. and yet, i think the relationship between india and china demonstrates that, you know, if things off to try to preserve it, even when commercial ties and the burgeoning, what do you think this stability at allows the to countries? is it why is it worth while to try to cultivate it in, in your relationship?

because it was, it was very deep rooted. it's not just only about the between just few interest. it was not just only about few political leaders or few political parties of insight to the evidence. so the visible due became india as plus from this or in 2014. he was never did in the union government, he was of the state leader. and at that time, it was expected that, you know, he may not the, the be very effective, the flooding policy player. and i remember, you know, he had 1st meeting with the president 14 and somebody asked him about the india or she had a nation's. and it'll naturally that his 1st reaction was that if you ask anybody in india, even a child who is your best friend and also would be less. yeah. so he likes deep polluted. that kind of a relationship we're,

it's not just only defense forces, it's sort of just on the or the political leaders at the general mosque level. people take the cache that will fit and that perhaps works with all, you know, all the policy makers as well. so they feel that whenever there was a political movement in india's history, whether it was 1971 in the, uh, you know, in the butler, they sure, i mean 90. i bought this done situation or later on when it was a issue of just me, it was day of the united nations or any particular time in india needed somebody at the united nations security console or any other international for them. a she has to do with india. so similarly the same situation when you know, uh, happened during the green crisis. uh so you know, the, the sentiment that is, you know, there might be certain issues there, but you don't hear the fan, which is at a certain problem. and dana, it was very difficult for writing the western countries to understand the one day

just. and they look like disappointed, they'll try perhaps because they do not develop relationship in such a fashion. because as you pointed out, it takes time years dickens, to actually cult right then sometimes for go immediate interest in order to, you know, show respect to the connections that you're forced to an interesting way and off the, you know, you mentioned some difficult times in a rush just yesterday in the rest of the recent history, and that's the relationship they don't because it allowed the russia to reorient. if oil uh, exports very swiftly, 2 inches, also great benefit if i'm not mistaken, the russian, our cause for 40 percent off in this oil imports compared to less than one before the one. now, what's interesting about it is that a lot of this oil, as far as understanding, gets refined in india and then being the adult as you to be sure you are a team union. and this is the i have the question i have for you. how do you

understand this european positioning sort of ascending this energy sources circulating around the entire continental and losing what's important added value in the process? because a lot of those profits they used to be earned by the europeans themselves, but now they're ready to pay the pay exorbitant prices for the same sources of energy both with uh, well i think this is the, i mean, you know, when the a hey, you know the ukraine was started, obviously they, they had certain issues and this didn't believe continue to have those issues. and then they decided that they have to move away from that issue and energy sources and that they didn't, they didn't was wanting that so. so i think the political decision was taken. so slowly and slowly this started moving away and that created the situation in which a lot of she also have to because she continued to be a major producer and it's for the off energy. so for the europeans and not buying

so that she obviously have to find new markets. so china wasn't milwaukee, india wasn't of the market. but the only thing was the problem was how do you really oh, suddenly created that link? it is and the data will be much higher because it is also closer to identify the sources in the middle east. uh so uh, maybe the fact of the freight would be added into this. but then you have the discount good price that sets us. we'd been searching back that was the one that was a political really to do 2nd thing. they were able to do it. and then there was also, i'm president of sanctions against russia. so some hope all is see may, it goes in both the country, then agencies in both the countries. they have been also able to well called certain mechanism. the payments are made and still things are continuing of cause it's may not be very easy. i can understand it may be very complicated situation, but you know, it has to be done. so it means that there is a political will and the question you us on bearable delay. but during the planning, that sounds very positive with all the one for the europeans and for the global

market. because of that i should, oil was not there. in the global market, there'll be much more will activity. there will be much for the price. would that be much higher than the i'm the consumers in europe also would have paid much higher price than what actually the, i get the know. so we, this is india. they might, fitness as indiana says that you know, india still buying the be oil from last year, but the day that they buy and what are you for loss of one product as long as the a global energy market. and they themselves are buying that in that sense, we're going to play the very bottom stabilizing goal. i would say, i think it also comes tre. sounds that the loud for a sort of a just distribution of economic activity because you're of, at least before the kinetic phase of this conflict, accumulated a lot of the added value benefits. and now you know, that being shifted to other countries like india. and i suppose this may trickle down from the energy sector to other industries as well,

because you need an energy in order to develop your economies. now, do you think this situation is permanent to do things? be your opinions forever? real uh, sort of stay of this kind of arrangement, or is there a potential for turning around? well, there's a potential of everything a little, but the at the moment looks like that for the next couple of years. things are going to be the way things are happening because he would have 5 women say that it will uh take that is all you know, uh the clean case. but you know, i mean the sanctions etc might tend to do for some more time. similarly, europeans may own, so politically, they have decided that there's also no pressure from the united states because i just states itself is becoming a major nosy producer. so they would, they would like to the, i mean, your appeals to buy more. and as you from the united states then from last year and in the process of the last 2 years, new linked, it is also being created sooner the same situation as seen. so it may not be

exactly the same situation, say after 2 years after, even if things are normalized and the process. uh, it does more than uh, processing capacity is in india, there's a new routes would be created. new connectivity channels would be created though because of the williams up there. so many of those go into is which india and that she had been talking for years. some of the things made materialize because all the tree and williams are the only things that are uncertain. but this is also the with some new opportunities for indians us. you have to work together in many new areas as well as a minister of foreign affairs minister described in just strategy as engaging with america. managing relations with china, strengthening ties with you are pressuring russia, bringing japan into play, drawing in our neighbors, extending our regional influence and expanding our traditional basis of support. that's a very ambitious and very multi faceted plan. what do you think is it's wicker,

so perhaps the most tenuous point? no, i don't think anything we just did this is i mean the 12 a one all at all times, but it's not the possible. no, but i don't see any contradiction here in this is, i mean what you can see the do 1st thing to the typically, i mean some, some people said that it is going from the other line meant what are the alignment? but i think it's not even a line, but it's slow to engagement because the line with indians not aligning with anybody . it's an order that any country because india cannot be even if you're working in the end up as a good day united states. india is not in a like a like, you know, uh, but you know, on like, uh say you under partners, you know, whether japan or auto stream the another, those who come with the united states. and even though there's something in the pacific or not. but india a lot but did a certain interest and because of the initials which i not particularly uh, these kind of narrative, these kind of things new will. uh so this has been working at the same time. it is

also playing a very important role in all within the global sold because global, so today is not what it used to be. installed a bunch of fuel developing countries. we didn't global, so did a heavy rates, politically, economically, strategically. and a, you look at any of them was that they look at play and you look at investment, you look at the, you know, many of the, you wouldn't even services if technology, the global sold countries on of becoming important. so in the i can work with the neighbors and the global assault and also the other players. so it's the same b shift, but yes, i mean, so far, i mean the it as well for the okay. now let me ask one of those question because in this a great list of objectives, the minister didn't mention practice done by name, and there is also no thing about managing historical amenities. how do seem developing, do you think this issue will be addressed primarily on a biological basis, or has it now become a sort of

a small thing within that much broader puzzle or will it be 19 if india has any ambition to be an important player within asia and of the global level. so you cannot see any player varies important drone or that emission. so if you do not see any dissolved deal issue has been engineered before it started to mid to the india has to find ways to work. but to kind of dimension into about this done. but so what i'd seen situation has not really these that please don't see any effect to, you know, look i know for the nation and others of the a voters will fuck this. done within the largest scheme of things may not be that important. but i think for your the largest role ambition, you have to find certain things also within your neighborhood. and it has to be done by naturally that has been the policy to out well, professor, we have to live in there. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much

for that. i do. thanks a pleasure, talking to you and thank you for watching hope to share again on worlds apart. the moscow accuses ukrainian officer of committing a war crime by bombing a school in russia's and battled pers region to draw attention away from the torture and execution of civilians by kids forces in a nearby area. a warning distressing images are ahead. do you see it that the problem can i do you? i do full is do we attack and the curse bridge in time, shortly after a russian troops discovered the bodies of at least 22 locals who were apparently massacred by ukrainian troops. despite the states far in gaza, israel steps up, it's a sort.