or, and america will soon realize that the throwing tariffs to try to get its own books in order is not the solution that is going to do for me for now. but do stay with us. my colleague union o'neill will be in next in about half an hour with more news by the hello and welcome to was a part. and jo pulls to explore them in any other area of human activity, friendship and ality come at a price that's particularly true about the relationship between great powers which now wished and you inflection point with the potential for mutual cooperation and mutual destruction being roughly equal,

which way are the scales of history likely to tip? i'll discuss that. i'm now joined by we're shown such demo a professor of the give a hello narrow university in and your daily professor is great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me. now, most jo, political discussions this, these are colored by the events in the united states and the integration of donald trump and give them their dramatic or a times erratic nature. i think it gives many of the nations and i'll put change you to have a sober look at the policies and decide which way they want to go, perhaps towards more self grounding and deciding which relationship they want to keep for each relationship, they want to change and i want to look at the induced policy from that perspective . let's start at a potential for change. i know that the relationship between indian china has long been the testing. but over the last couple of months they have been notable signs

of warming up. are you more hopeful or skeptical about these, to large nations developing a somewhat more harmonious way of relating how to deal with china arising, china assertive china? is it major challenge for or also rising in a certain if there was india is not a so to but india is designated to these icing so, so this has been a challenge for india. and this is also a good opportunity because you know, these 2 economies of logical enemies next to each other going very fast. so they can also feed each other know, despite all the challenges all the problem between the and the last few years had be china. still, last year china was india's number one trading buckner, and for the, for the us, 50 is 40 years of china has been india is one of the top trading partners. so,

so there, he's also being the long disputed border. so for the last few years, things of deteriorated, but know as you're likely mentioning the last few years, last 2 months that had been certain positive developments into that as we speak in deals for them. so i could see is visiting china. so there has been, uh, i would say of cautiously i would say when is off the mistake, that things would uh come to some kind of normality we're, we know that the border issue with a long time to be as owned, but it can be, it is old uh by talking. so one can only hope that you know, things would be mode or more or less in a situation where you have certain uh, issues to be resolved. but at the same time you can start working as a good neighbors. and i'm working on many with those issues because china could also provide many opportunities to and i heard the experts say that the china india

relationship says the cold war has, has followed this assault, provoke repeat pattern when there would be some posit the steps. and then they would invariably be any dated by some disputes. later on. do you think these are recent uh, positive moves still within that uh cycle or they have some potential of breaking through it? no, i would think that you know, so, so it has been all decided at the top level that we have to find certain solution to the problem. um and uh, i think a, they have talked through this process because both countries uh them what your lead issue. so despite all the problems we had done and still i think the multiple quite quite she's in that that he should not go out of control. and others should not take advantage of the problems between india and china. so i think i'm optimistic that hopefully we'll see some positive developments. now you mentioned some talks

at the top level, and of course there was a major meeting between prime minister margie and president a she which took place here in russia. so i wonder though, if you take this positive development as of this think in its own driven by its own, uh, dynamics, or is it more an influence or 5 global advance, for example, or response to what's going on across the ocean in the united states? well, i think is a combination of all the factors because it takes kind of what happened in isolation. what is happening in europe? what is happening in united states? what is happening in the asia? and you have to look at all those issues carefully. and then you have to calculate, there is onset entity, as you said, you know, the engine i did, states under dump, it's unpredictable how he was going to react at the same time. there are serious

issues at the global level and you have many conflicts. and as we have seen, the global institutions of government is whether you look at the united nation security constantly, all you look at a new deal. all you look at the, you know, the new actually when united states and moved out. and you know, all these 2 shows have not been very effective. so obviously you have to look at those situations and then try to see that, you know, there are other countries in which, how many india is infected, who i mean, despite all the, uh, i mean, what problem do you have the china but, you know, with countries and can not just only with us, you know, you would with the rest how many days these liberally having good relations, no more than 35 strategic partnership. so you have to see really just like you had the same time that also certain principles. so i think this is the india is looking at situation now the, the chinese policies sometimes described as one of a tactical expediency when china will, for certain agreements, violate some parts and tried to sort of cover it out with the reassurances at the

high level. do you think there's any difference in how china relates to its various partners and which agreements it chooses to uphold all perfectly or let's say for goal, this is what in fact is happening because, you know, many of the agreements which india and china put in place uh, the agree that the border there will be tranquillity, bees till the time we are able to resolve this issue. now that continued for quite some time uh, at least uh 20 years plus. but suddenly, uh, some of those times it'd be seen that they were why they did buy china, the china will have its own explanation. but the problem, the fact of the matter was that in fact of the mattress still is that a couple of years relations between india and china has not been done with. and we have to bring it back to the normal se,

but then that raises the question of what is normal because, i mean, uh normal it means that you have certain issues because it will blow the countries are going well. the whole country is agreeing at the same place so, so there are bound to be tension. so in certain areas, in which both of them will be cooperating. like in trade and investment in technology and make sure you're already doing which we are doing. and we can do even more then the also areas where there's going to be certain competition because both of them would also bring that would be looking for markets. they would be looking for different investment. they want to also looking for certain influence. so there is also going to be in that sense competition, but that also, but it should not really become conflict. so, so this is what you know. so it is india, china, the nation they look into to you for sees that kind of thing. the competition, cooperation, conflict. so this is what has been the case for quite some time. so sometimes you

have more cooperation, less config, sometimes like velocity. is you a slightly more conflicting issues, but then the cooperation is less. but you know, this is all, you have to manage the, your interest and you brought out by the american formula of 3. see, they all fund sided into relation to, to china. i wonder if you think that india, or perhaps even russia to some extent, derive any indirect benefit from the increased attention that the united states is now paying to china. and do you think it changed the way a china behaves itself, both in the region and in the world? well, i mean, obviously uh other countries would like to take advantage of the, the united states. as you mention, if there is a certain tensions between india and china says they also have that issues, which i know they would like to use this uh to use this particular attention to the entered one page at the same james as india has the shoes, which i know for the last few years,

so the kind of tension which is building between the united states and china, india also would like, would be a good one. do some that then sure. if it's fair, i find the same thing. this is also happening that uh, the kind of problems you had and all the rest bullets with the auto and with the united states and sanctions. this has brought china and russia together, which is creating certain, um, what is in india that to, for the shelby comes to closer to china, which is not feeling very good for us in the long run. because you know, the feel that the, but i, she, i should be playing much more independent will be good. rolling does global affairs . so this is the whole change that'd be happening with every country looking at their own interest is trying to, you know, use that particular situation. but we have a careful that we should not be used by others. uh, you know, in this kind of situation. so be tied to resulting by led to leave of china and india has also sought to mitigate this. china is factored by developing ties with the west. i think the previous administrations have been uh, courting new daily,

quite extensively. i would even say that the india enjoyed the very special trip and then to for quite some time, do think that will continue on the trump administration. what do at this point does do, i think there are so many interests between india and united states which have gone was and values of assertive china is also one of those reasons that both of them come together because it's very difficult for one independent country to kind of as a balance china, nobody can stop the eyes of china. oh, you know, and that's an independent factor. but at least you, you tied to the bylaws that, you know, you wouldn't just to, i'm not in the holland. why that does eyes. so both are trying to work on, so that's why you have the letters a good idea and then you also have the end up as a economic plan. well, then you also have it in the pacific and only plan with different things you are talking. so all those things are basically tied to the bill of certain things, working with the united states. yes. of all, but uh,

does the united states commit to all those forms? because i mean, judging from the 1st, most of the trump administration, and there's some, some controversy within that administration. it looks like perhaps the relationship with the indian males. so change because i heard that there are some major disputes over the h one, b visas. uh 70 percent of ways go to highly skilled workers who happened to be mostly indians in the past. if that issue has changed, do you think it will affect the emotional temperature between the 2 always? well, i mean, doug was there also earlier for 5 years. uh, this is one area in which of, i think one can see the slide freak shows that are such an interest. i mean it's not just only this i'm, that would be daddy's so i mean when somebody and also he was that and dad was in india. but i did that. and i think the indian policy makers are quite confident that they'll be able to manage those of one. i mean,

how do you negotiate with them on certain issues? all you'll give, set them given dick that you know, uh from certain specific products. a certain other thing, which i don't think just to united states, you might just allow those things to happens. but those are not going to affect fundamentally, i would say in the united states relations. because it's such an interest at this point of time there can watching, and it didn't sort of and this to mention that the before to them to go that to many countries of the world as what it, what it from, from the thomas coming to the united states, but india is not one of them. now, there is an old saying political circles, that's when the united states needs as the world catches a cold. and if you take that matter for a little bit further, i think the united states, right, that was not just sneezing. it said it in a very high fever with some a rabbit called from convulsions. but you're saying that the indians and not worried, and how is india trying to sort of protect itself from the

erotic nation of that the ministration or the you don't believe perhaps that it's erratic? no, i mean it's unpredictable. it's probably best way to, but to, from the past experience that there could be certain issues in which you could result. and then there is also a factor that is also good person to come and see between the but i'm this, i'm all the addresses and some are things can go wrong. some of it, i mean nobody can be totally 100 percent. sure about this, but they are not see any of that. what it as like the order be under what it about, on the administration and many others perhaps you heard, i say, well professor, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments stitching the

there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the or is the case for the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also of soon. this is the 3rd world will receive re washing as for so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to living on line. we have very close propaganda. you know, price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions, some more questions at the better the answer is will be the welcome back to was a part for this course child such deborah, a professor at jo, how long after university in new dalliance professor and before the break, we discussed many changes at a now happening into

a politics. but in his recent book, the indian external affairs administered jason, how to grow with that the in get russia relationship is quote, the subject of attention, not because it has changed, but because it has not what do you think allowed for these non change given that the 2 countries internally have transformed that great do. what did they do on the other one? so you mentioned a couple of times that the word has changed. as i see it has seen india has st. but india and i see on a lease has continued to be a stable fact of international relations because of, you know, as you know, the india in india, the relations into so with you and have a very strong you. and after that, you will not for the so we pick up when what day relations are the most uh, you know, affinity because any is solely doing. they used to be in the as number one, trading partner on the specific trading attainment which we had in the ninety's.

the older 2 disappeared or what do you, what able to put together? so to me is to slowly mac. and as i'm off to visit at least the political and strategic relations became more or less close and then uh, defense continue to be very important. the area because most of the indian platforms are continued to be russian, then india was also able to find certain uh, areas, particularly nuclear energy space. we're still, you know, many of the, but, you know, kind of cooperation was built. but you know, the private sector team simply didn't work because she was looking more towards the west india things change. and he was also looking for new mockers people, those what operating them that i should market earlier or in the soviet market. those things simply didn't exist then, but you know, the 1st factor which was built over decades between india and russia that continue . what can i ask you about that?

because clearly and then what in danger politics uh, there, there is a very huge shortage. i would even say of the lack of trust the countries have moved away from that paradigm. and yet, i think the relationship between india and china demonstrates that you know, if things off to try to preserve it, even when commercial ties in the burgeoning. what do you think this stability, it allows the to countries, is it why is it worth while to try to cultivate it in, in your relationship? because it was, it was very deep rooted. it's not just only about the between just few interest. it was not just only about few political lead us all as you pull it because of parties. in fact, it opens this. so the became india as plus family history in 2014. he was never did in the union government, he was of the state leader. and at that time it was expected that to a human,

not the the be very effective for them all is the plan. and i remember, you know, he had 1st meeting with the president 14 and somebody asked him about the india she had a nation's. and it'll naturally that his 1st reaction was that if you ask anybody in india, even a child who is your best friend and also would be less. yeah. so he likes deep polluted. that kind of a relationship where it's not just only defense forces, it's sort of just on the or the political leaders at the jungle. mostly will people take that to the chaise, a little fact. and that perhaps works with all, you know, all the policy makers as well. so they feel that when it was, there was a political movement in india's history, whether it was 1971 in the uh, you know, in the buckler, they sure, i mean 90. i bought this done situation or later on when it was

a issue of jumbling because we, it was a, is a united nations or any particular time in india needed somebody at the united nations security console or any other international for them. uh she has to do with india. so similarly the same situation when you know, uh, happened during the green crisis. uh so you know, the sentiment that is, you know, there might be certain issues there, but, you know, hear the fan which is that a certain uh, problem. and uh, anyway, it was very difficult for writing the western countries to understand the one day just. and they look like disappointed, they'll try perhaps because they do not develop relationship in such a fashion. because as you pointed out, it takes time, years, decades to actually cultivate and sometimes forego, immediate interest in order to, you know, show respect to the connections that you force them interesting way. and after the, you know, you mentioned some difficult times in a rush, us history in the russian,

serious and history. and that's relationship pay don't because it allow with russia to, um, reorient it's oil uh, exports varies $52.00 inches. also a great benefit if i'm not mistaken, the russian, our cause for 40 percent off indoors. well, emperor as compared to less than one before the war. and now what's interesting about it is that a lot of this oil, as far as understanding, gets refined in india and then being the adult as you to see where you are at the, in the union. and this is the, i have the question i have for you. how do you understand this european positioning sort of ascending this energy sources circulating around the entire continental and losing what's important added value in the process. because a lot of those profits they used to be earned by the europeans themselves, but now they're ready to put in and pay exorbitant prices for the same sources of energy both with uh, well, i think this is the, i mean, you know, when the,

the hey, you know, the ukraine was started, obviously they, they had certain issues and this didn't believe continue to have those issues. and then they decided that they have to move away from that issue and energy sources. and that they didn't, they didn't was wanting that so. so in the political decision was taken. so slowly and slowly this started moving away and that created a situation in which a lot of she also have to because she continued to be a major producer and it's for the off energy. so for the europeans are not buying so that she'll be as they have to find new market. so china wasn't milwaukee. india wasn't of the market. but the only thing was the problem was how do you really oh, suddenly created that link? it is. and the data will be much higher because it is also closer to identify the sources and the lease. uh so uh, maybe the fact of the freight would be added into this. but then you have the discount, good price, etc. us, we'd be searching back. it was the one that was a political really to do 2nd thing. they were able to do it. and then there was

also, i'm president of sanctions against russia. so some hope all is see may, it goes in both the country, then agencies in both the countries. they have been also able to well codes certain mechanism. the payments are made and still things are continuing of cause it's may not be very easy. i can understand it may be very complicated situation, but you know, it has to be done. so it means that there is a political will and the question you us on bearable delay. but during the planning that sounds very positive with only one for the europeans and for the global market . because of that i should, oil was not there. in the global market, there will be much more will activity. there will be much for the price. would that be much higher than the i'm the consumers in europe also would have paid much higher, right than what actually the, i get the know. so we, this is india. they might do this as indiana says that, you know, india still buying the be the oil from last year, but the day that they buy and what are you for loss of, you know,

one product as long as the global energy locked in on themselves of buying that didn't, does incidentally niblet a very important stabilizing goal. i would say, i think it also comes tre. sounds that the loud for a sort of a, just a distribution of economic activity because you're a but please, before the kinetic phase of this conflict, accumulated a lot of the added value benefits. and now you know that being shifted to other countries like india, and i suppose this may trickle down from the energy sector to other industries as well because you need energy in order to develop your economies. now, do you think this situation is permanent? i do think the europeans forever real uh, sort of stay of this kind of arrangement or is there a potential for turning around? well, there's a potential of everything a little, but the at the moment looks like that for the next couple of years. things are going to be the way things are happening because you wouldn't have 5 women say

it'll uh take that is all you know, uh the ukraine case. but, you know, i mean the sanction that's a lifetime to do for some more time. similarly, europeans may also, politically, they have decided that there's also no pressure from the united states. really that just states itself is becoming a major, nosy producer. so they would, they would like to, i mean, your appeals to buy more. and as you from the united states then from last year and in the process in the last 2 years, new liquid is also being created. so the same situation i've seen so it may not be exactly the same situation, say after 2 years after, even if things are normalized and the process. uh, it does more than uh, processing capacity. is it india, there's a new routes would be created, new connectivity channels would be created though, because of the williams up there. so many of those got indoors which india and that she had been talking for years. some of the things mand materialize, because all the food williams are there are things that are uncertain. but this is

also with some new opportunities for india, and that she had to work together in many new areas as well as a minister of foreign affairs minister described in just strategy as engaging with america. managing relations with china, strengthening ties with you are pressuring russia, bringing japan into play, drawing in our neighbors, extending our regional influence and expanding our traditional basis of support. that's a very ambitious and very multi faceted plan. what do you think is it's we can still perhaps most tenuous point? no, i don't think anything requested this is i mean the 12 a one all at the old times, but it's not the possible. no, but i don't see any contradiction here in this is, i mean what you can see that you 1st think of that typically, i mean some, some people said that it is going from the other line meant what are the alignment? but i think it's not even a line, but it's worthy engagement. because alignment indeed is not aligning with anybody.

it's an order with any country because india cannot be even if you're working in the past with a good day united states. india is built into like a, like, you know, uh the, you know, on like, uh say you under partners, you know, whether japan or auto staley and other doors you've come with the united states. and even though there's something in the pacific or not, but do you do you have a lot, but there are certain interests and because of tensions which i not particularly uh, these kind of narrative, these kind of things do well. uh. so this has been working at the same time, it is also playing a very important role in all within the global sold because global. so today is not what it used to be. installed a bunch of fuel developing countries. we didn't global. so the heavy rates, politically, economically, strategically, and a, you look at any numbers or they look at play and you look at investment, you look at the, you know, many of the didn't even even services if technology,

the global sold countries on the vault. and so in the i can walk with the neighbors and the global assault and also the other players. so that's the same b shift, but yes, i mean, so far, i mean the it as well for the okay. now let me ask you one last question because in this a great list of objectives, the minister didn't mention, pack is done by name. and there is also no thing about managing historical amenities. how do seem developing, do you think this issue will be addressed primarily on a battle actual basis, or has it now become a sort of a small thing within that much broader puzzle as well? i think if india has any ambition to be an important player within asia and at the global level, so you cannot see any player varies important drone or that emission. so if you do not see any resolved, your issue has been engineered before. so to mentally, india has to find ways to work, but to kind of dimension into focused on but the sofa,

i think situation has not really these that please don't see any effect to a, you know, a look. i know for the nation did others of the they bought those of boxes done within the largest scheme of things may not be that important. but i think for your the largest role ambition, you have to find certain things also within your neighborhood. and it has to be done by naturally that has been the policy to out well, professor, we have to leave it there. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much for that. i do think pleasure talking to you and thank you for watching hope this here again, on worlds apart, the,

[000:00:00;00] the ukrainian officer is charged with terrorism by moscow for his, that part in pearl. and the attack on boarding school in russia's crisp region authorities also alleged performing was an attempt to draw attention away from the torture on the execution of civilians by ts, forces in the nearby area. a warning, distressing images is the 3 of us do you do you have to do bullet or about the loss or discovery? so russian troops on cover the parties of at least $22.00 little goals, partly must occurred by the premium battalion. also ahead this our,

these really prime minister puts the positive spit and the destruction of 90