the, the hello and welcome to was a part in geo politics more than any other area of human activity, friendship and elegy come at a price that's particularly true about the relationship between great powers which now wished and you inflection point with the potential for mutual cooperation and mutual destruction being roughly equal, which way are the skills of history likely to tip? i'll discuss that. i'm now joined by and we're shown such that a professor of the give a hello natalie university in new delhi professor is great to talk to. thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me. now, most jo, political discussions, this, these are colored by the events in the united states and the integration of donald trump and give them their dramatic or a times erratic nature. i think it gives many of the nation's an opportunity to have a silver look at the policies and decide which way they want to go,

perhaps towards more self grounding and deciding which relationship they want to keep for each relationship they want to change. and i want to look at the interest policy from that perspective. let's start at a potential for change. i know that the relationship between indian china has long been the testy, but over the last couple of months they have been notable signs of warming up. are you more hopeful or skeptical about these 2 large nations developing somewhat more harmonious way of relating how to deal with china? arising china assertive china is a major challenge for all. also rising in a certain, in their while india is not a so to but india is designated to these icing. so, so this, it's been

a challenge for india. uh, and this is also a good opportunity because, you know, these 2 economies are logical enemies. next to each other going very fast so they can also feed each other. no, despite all the challenges, all the problem between the and the last few years had be china. still last year china was india's number one trading partner. and for the, for the us, 15 is 20 years that china has been, india is one of the top trading partners. so there, he's also being the long disputed border of. so for the last few years, things of deteriorated. but know, as you're likely mentioning the last few years, last 2 months that had been certain positive developments into the as we speak in deals for them is that good see is visiting china. so there has been, uh, i would say, oh, cautiously i would say one is all the mistake that things would uh come to some

kind of normality. we're. we know that the border issue was a long time to be rezoned, but it can be, it is old uh by talking. so one can only hope that you know, things would be mode or more or less in a situation where you have certain uh, issues to be resolved. but the same time you can start working as a good neighbors. and i'm working on many all of those issues because china can also provide many opportunities to and i heard the experts say that the china india relationship says the cold war has, has full this assault per woke. repeat pattern when there would be some positive steps. and then they would invariably be in a gated by some a dispute later on dissing this or recent uh, positive moves a still within that cycle, or they have some potential of breaking through it. no, i would think that you know, so, so it has be now decided that of label that we have to find certain solution to the

problem. um and uh, i think a, they have talked through this process because both countries, uh them what your leadership. so despite all the problems we had done and still i think they both are quite, quite choosing that, that he should not go out of control. and others should not take advantage of the problems between india and china. so i think i'm optimistic that hopefully we'll see some positive development. now you mentioned some talks at the top level, and of course there was a major meeting between prime minister margie and president she which took place here in the restaurant. and i, i wonder though, if you take this positive development as of this think in its own driven by its own, uh, dynamic, or is it more an influence of, uh, global advance for example, or response to what's going on across the ocean in the united states no,

i think is a combination of all the factors because it takes care of what happened in isolation. what is happening in the order of what is happening in united states? what is happening in the asia? and you have to look at all those issues carefully and then you have to calculate, there is uncertainty. as you said, you know, injured. i did, states under dump, it's unpredictable how he was going to react at the same time. there are serious issues at the global level and you have many conflicts. and as we have seen, the global institutions of government is whether you look at the united nation security calling. so in the all you look at the w deal, all you look at the, you know, w actually when united states and moved out. and you know, all the, these 2 shows have not been very effective. so obviously you have to look at those situations. and then try to see that, you know, there are other countries in which, how many india is impacting. i mean, despite all the, uh, i mean,

what problem do you have the china but you know, with countries and cannot just only with us, you know, you would with the rest. how many days these nobody having good relations, no more than 35 digit partnership. so you have to see really just like the same thing that also certain principles. so i think this is the way the india is looking at a situation. now the chinese policy is sometimes described as one of a tactical expediency when china will forge certain agreements, violate some parts and tried to sort of cover it out with the reassurances at the high level. do you think there's any difference in how china relates to its various partners and which agreements it's choose us to uphold a perfectly or let's say for goal, this is what, in fact, is it happening because, you know, many of the agreements which india and china put in place uh the agree that the body will be tranquillity, peace till that time we are able to resolve this issue. now that continued for

quite some time uh, at least uh 20 years plus. but suddenly, some of those times the deal, seeing that they were why they did buy china, the china will have its own explanation. but the problem, but the fact of the matter was that in fact, the metro still use that for a couple of years. relations between india and china has not been normally and we have to bring it back to the normal mileage. but, and that's, it raises the question of what is normal because, i mean, the normal means that you have certain issues because it will board, the countries are going well, the whole country is agreeing at the same place. uh, so there are bound to be tension. so in certain areas, in which both of them will be cooperating like in trade and investment in technology and it makes you over to doing which we are doing. and we can do even more then the also it is, it is going to be certain competition because both of them are also going that

would be looking for markets. they would be looking for different investment there and also looking for certain influence. so there is also going to be in that sense competition, but that also, but it should not really become conflict. so, so this is what the, you know, so busy india, china, the nation, they look into 2 policies, that kind of thing, the competition, cooperation conflict. so this is what has been the case for quite some time. so sometimes you have more cooperation, less config, sometimes like velocity is you have slightly more conflicting issues. but then the cooperation is less. but you know, this is all you have to manage the, your interest. so you brought out by the american formula 3, see they all fund sided into relation to the china. i wonder if you think that india, or perhaps even russia to some extent, derive any indirect benefit from the increased attention that the united states has now paying to china. and do you think it change the way a china behaves itself,

both in the region and in the world? well, i mean, obviously uh the uh country is, would like to take advantage of the, the united states. as you mention, if there is a certain tensions between india and china, so they also have that issues which i know they would like to use this uh to use this particular attention to the entered one page at the same james as india has the shoes, which i know for the last 2 years, so the kind of tensions which is building between the united states and china, india also would like would be a good one. do some of that dentistry. if it's fair and the same time, this is also happening that uh, the kind of problems you had and all the rest bullets with the auto and with the united states and sanctions. this has brought china and ratio to gather which is creating certain um, what is in india that to, for the shelby comes to closer to china, which is not really very good for us in the long run. because you know, the feel that the, that i, she,

i should be playing much more independent will be good. rolling does a little bit of it sort of decent whole things that'd be happening with every country looking at their own interest is trying to, you know, use that particular situation. but we have a careful that we should not be used by others. but you know, in this kind of situation, so we've tried to resulting by actually the china and india has also sought to mitigate this. china is factored by developing ties with the wes thing. the previous administrations have been uh, courting and new daily, quite extensively. i would even say, but the india enjoy the very special trip and then to for quite some time dissing that will continue under the trump registration. what do, at this point, just highlighting the so many interests between india and united states, which i'm kind of was. and values of assertive china is also one of those, these of the, both of them come together because it's very difficult for one independent country

to kind of the violence, china, nobody can stop the eyes of china, you know, and that's an independent factor. but at least you, you tied to the butler's that, you know, you would have just some knowledge in the home to buy that his eyes. so both are trying to work on. so that's why you have the letters a good idea. and then you also have the end up as a economically it will. then you'll also have within the past to take it the only thing with different things you're talking. so all those things are basically time to the bell of certain things, working with the united states. yes. of all, but uh, does the united states commit to all those forms? because i mean, judging from the 1st, most of the trump administration, and there's some, some controversy within that administration. it looks like perhaps the relationship with indian males. so change because i heard that there are some major disputes over the h one b visas, uh 70 percent of ways go to highly skilled workers who happened to be mostly indians in the past. if that issues change,

do you think it will affect the emotional temperature between the 2 always always jump. was there also earlier for 5 years? uh, this is one area in which um i think one can see the slide for it shows that a certain interest. i mean, it's not just only this i'm, there could be daddy, so i did when somebody at also he was at and that was an area. but i think that i think the indian policy makers are quite confident that they'll be able to manage those of one. i mean, how do you negotiate with them on certain issues? all you'll give, set them given dictate, you know, uh if a certain specific products. uh, a certain other thing would shut off in just the united states. you might just allow those things to happens. but those are not going to affect fundamentally, i would say in the united states relations. because it's such an interest at this point a time the can watching and it didn't for them. and just to mention that the before to them to go that to many countries in the world does, what do you do?

what it from to the terms coming to the united states. what do you do is not one of them. now, there is an old saying political circles, that's when the united states needs as the world catches a cold. and if you take that matter for a little bit further, i think the united states, right? that was not just sneezing. it said it in a very high fever with some a radical come convulsions. but you're saying that the indians and not worried, and how is india trying to sort of protect itself from the erotic nation of that the ministration or the you don't believe perhaps that it's erratic? no, i mean it's unpredictable. it's probably that's quite true. but to, from the past experience that there could be certain issues in which you could result. and then there's also the fact that there is also good personal chemistry between the brand this i'm all the addresses and some are things can go wrong. some good, i mean nobody can be totally 100 percent. sure about this, but they are not see any of that. what he does like the what about that mistaken

and many others perhaps you heard, i say, well professor, we have to take a very short break. right? now, but we will be back in just a few moments section. the welcome back to was a part of it. of course, on such deborah, a professor at jo, how long after university in new delhi professor. and before the break, we discussed many changes at a now happening into a politics. but in his recent book, the indian external affairs administered jason, how to, bro, with that the in debt, russia relationship is quote, the subject of attention, not because it has changed, but because it has not what do you think allowed for these non changes given that

the 2 countries internally have just formed that great due are wanting to do audio . also, you mentioned a couple of times that the word has changed as she has seen, india has st. but india does she have the lease has continued to be a stable fact of international relations because of, you know, as you know, the in the, in the, of the relations into so with you and have a very strong a you. and after that, you will not for the so we pick up when what day relations are the most uh, you know, if in a, because any is solely doing, they used to be in the, as number one, trading partner on the specific trading of england, which we had in the ninety's the whole to disappeared, but we weren't able to put together. so to me, to switch to the mechanism off to base that at least the political and strategic relations became a little less close. and then uh, defense continue to be very important to you. yeah. because most of the indian

platforms will continue to be russian. and then in deal was also able to find certain uh, areas, particularly nuclear energy space. we're still, you know, many of the, but, you know, kind of cooperation was built. but you know, the private sector attain simply didn't work because she was looking more towards the less and the things change. and there was also looking for new markers, people. those weren't for anything and that i shouldn't market earlier or in the soviet market. those things simply didn't exist then. but you know, the 1st factor which was built over decades between india and russia, that continued. can i ask you about that? because clearly in what, in danger, politics uh there, there is a very huge shortage. i would even say and the lack of trust the countries have moved away from that paradigm. and yet, i think the relationship between india and china demonstrates that, you know,

if things off to try to preserve it, even when commercial ties and the burgeoning, what do you think this uh, stability at allows the to countries is it why is it worth while to try to cultivate it in, in your relationship because it was, it was very deep rooted. it's not just only about the between just few interest. it was not just only about few political leaders or few political parties. in fact, it opens this. so the became india as plus family history in 2014. he was never did in the union government, he was of the state leader. and at that time it was expected that you know, human not really be very effective for them policy player. and i remember, you know, he had 1st meeting with the president 14 and somebody asked him about the india she had relations. and it'll naturally that his 1st reaction was that if you ask

anybody in india, even a child and who is your best friend. and also wouldn't be less. yeah. so he likes deep polluted that kind of a relationship we're it's not just the only defense forces. it's sort of just on the or the political leaders at the general mosley will. people take that to the shade the effect and that perhaps works with all, you know, all the policy makers as well. so they feel that whenever there was a political movement in india's history, whether it was 1971 in the, uh, you know, in the butler, they sure, i mean 90. i bought this done situation, or really later on when it was the issue of jump would cause me it was a, is the united nations or any particular time in india needed somebody at the united nations security console or any other international for them. a she has to do with india. so similarly the same situation when you know, uh, happened during the green crisis. uh so even though there's a sentiment that is,

you know, there might be certain issues there, but you know, here the fan, which is at a certain problem. and dana, it was very difficult for lighting the western countries to understand the one day just. and they look like disappointed perhaps because they do not develop relationship in such a fashion. because as you pointed out, it takes time years. dickens, to actually cultivate and sometimes forego immediate interest in order to, you know, show respect to the connections that uh, you force them interesting way. and after the, you know, you mentioned some difficult times in a rush just yesterday in the rest of the recent history. and that's the relationship they don't because it allowed the russia to reorient. if oil uh, exports very swiftly, 2 inches, also a great benefit. if i'm not mistaken, the russian, our cause for 40 percent of in this oil imports compared to less than one before

the one. now, what's interesting about it is that a lot of this oil, as far as understanding, gets refined in it and then being the adult as you tube through your a team union. and this is the i have the question i have for you. how do you understand this european positioning sort of ascending this energy sources circulating around the entire continental and losing what's important added value in the process? because a lot of those profits they used to be earned by the europeans themselves, but now they're ready to pay the pay exorbitant prices for the same source of energy. but with a, well, i think this is the, i mean, you know, when the, the, hey, you know, the ukraine was started obviously they, they had certain issues and this didn't believe continue to have those issues. and then they decided that they have to move away from the ocean and of the sources.

and that they didn't, they didn't, was one of the, so selling the political decision was taken. so slowly and slowly this started moving away and that created the situation in which a lot of she also have to because she continued to be a major producer and explore the off energy. so for the europeans in old buying so that she'll be, as they have defined new market. so china wasn't milwaukee. india wasn't on the market. but the only thing was that a lot of the problems. how do you really oh, suddenly created that link. it is. and the data will be much higher because it is also closer to identify that the source is in the middle east. uh so uh, maybe the fact of the freight would be added into this. but then you have the discount, good prize, etc. us, we'd be searching back that was the one that was a political really to do 2nd thing. they were able to do it. and then there was also, i'm president of sanctions against russia. so some hope all is see me, it goes in both the country, then agencies in both the countries. they have been also able to, well code certain mechanism the payments are made and still things are continuing.

of course it's may not be very easy. i can understand it may be very complicated situation, but you know, it has to be done. so it means that there is a political will and the question you us on bearable delay, but really nipple it in that sounds very positive with all the one for the europeans and for the global market. because of that, i should, oil was not there in the global market, they'll be much more will activity. there will be much for the price. would that be much higher than the i'm the consumers in europe also would have paid much a higher price than what actually they are getting. know. so we, this is india. they might be the size in the items so that you know, it is still buying the be the oil from last year, but the day that they buy and what are you for. and most of the nice the, the global energy markets and they themselves are buying that and it does central india play to very important stabilize the goal. i would say, uh, i think it also comes tre. sounds that the loud for a sort of a, just a distribution of economic activity because you're a but please,

before the kinetic phase of this conflict, accumulated a lot of, um, added value benefits. and now, you know, a bad being shifted to other countries like india, and i suppose this may trickle down from the energy sector to other industries as well because you need an energy in order to develop your economies. now, do you think this situation is permanent? do things be or opinions forever real uh, sort of stay of this kind of arrangement, or is there a potential for turning around? well, there's a potential of everything a little, but the woman looks like that for the next couple of years. things are going to be the way things are happening because you would have 5 women say that it will uh take that is all you know, uh the ukraine case. but you know, i mean the sanction that's a white thing to do for some more time. similarly, europeans may also, politically, they have decided that there's also no pressure from the united states because i

just states itself is becoming a major analogy producer. so they would, they would like to, i mean, your appeals to buy more. and as you from the united states then from last year and in the process in the last 2 years, new liquid is also being created sooner the same situation as seen. so it may not be exactly the same situation, say after 2 years after, even if things are normalized and the process. uh, it does more than uh, processing capacity. is it india, there's a new routes would be created, new connectivity channels would be created all because of the williams up there. so many of those got indoors, which in the end that she had been talking for years, some of the things mand materialize because all the 3 and williams are, there are the things that are uncertain. but this is also with some new opportunities for india, and that she had to work together in many new areas as well as a minister of foreign affairs minister described in discharge as engaging with america. managing relations with china, strengthening ties with you are pressuring russia, bringing japan into play,

drawing in our neighbors, extending our regional influence and expanding our traditional basis of support. that's a very ambitious and very multi faceted plan. what do you think is it's we can still perhaps the most tenuous point or no, i don't see anything we just did. and this is, i mean the 12 a one all at the old times, but it's not the possible. no, but i don't see any contradiction here in this is, i mean, what you can see that do 1st thing there, typically, i mean some, some people said that it is going from the other line meant the alignment. but i think it's not even a line, but it's multi engagement because alignment and you have not aligning with anybody . it's not even any country because india cannot be even if you're working in the pacific the day united states. india is not in a like a like, you know, uh, you know, unlike uh, say, the other partners, you know, whether japan or australia and other,

those of come with the united states and even that is, i'm thinking in the pacific or not. but in the oven door, but there are certain interests and because of the time, so the china, particularly these kind of narrative, these kind of things do well. uh, so this has been working at the same time. it is also playing a very important role in all within the global sold because global, so today is not what it used to be. installed a bunch of fuel developing countries. we didn't global, so did a heavy rates, politically, economically, strategically. and a, you look at any numbers that they look at play, and you look at investments, you look at the, you know, many of the didn't even even services if technology, the global sold countries are becoming important. so in the i can work with the neighbors and the global assault and also the other players. so it's the same b shift, but yes, i mean, so far, i mean the it as well for the okay. now let me ask you one last question because in this a great list of objectives,

the administer didn't mention practice done by name. and there is also no thing about managing historical amenities. how do seem developing, do you think this issue will be addressed primarily on a biological basis, or has it now become a sort of a small thing within that much broader puzzle as well? i think if india has any ambition to be an important player within asia and at the global level, so you cannot see any player varies important drone or that emission. so if you do not see any resolved, your issue has been in your neighborhood. so dramatically, india has to find ways to work, but to kind of dimension into focused on but the sofa, i think situation has not really these that please don't see any effect to a, you know, a look. i know for the nations with others of the they've bought those boxes done within the largest people. things may not be that important. but i think for your

the largest role ambition, you have to find certain things also within your neighborhood. and it has to be done by that lead. that has been the policy to out well, professor, we have to live in there. it's been great pleasure talking to thank you very much for that. i do think pleasure talking to you and thank you for watching hope to hear again on worlds apart, the hello and welcome defrost the full force here. we discuss the wheel in cuz i don't want you to be not. so someone that just didn't want to say, i'm on this for the best interest you. right? if i see for the se,

average under the guise of evacuation about 50000 people were transported, the main purpose of this concentration camp in bella rose was too insane. prisoners was typhus and use them as a human shield against the advancing. so be it on me when you get into those. but feeling in coupon, you put them in there was one of us when it was in love with like you can put the ship the ship a put a specialized stuff. i don't want to bring your name the i'm so sorry i missed because that an extra 6 to put your salary and that is a c c, 's use people, his biological weapons leading them to perish without food was the most shelter. the do of small it there for me, if i did the so could i thing who lives out there with you for the small it to the can you put the nation way and there should have just put in each each additional rate a ship for them to move the cam gloucester 10 days or what else made it drastically

defense from other camps of that the rice watch on t the . 2 the hey, everybody, welcome back to moscow. welcome back to the moscow mules. i'm shay, bowes i'm here again. i'm joined the course by my, you know, forever friend. i'll give you the mind with the statistics. the amount with the numbers kind of backs up the stuff i make up with the facts. so where are we gonna start this week? and, of course, all eyes on the states, right? you know, the big don hits the ground running, you know, he's not going to mail the pack executive.