the, the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome to cross the bull horns. were all things are considered on peter level. this trump actually have a plan to end the ukraine conflict that doesn't appear so also the new administration is actively backing a plan to forcibly displace palestinians. in other words, ethnic cleansing will trump soon be known as genocide. done to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess door to samuel we in budapest, he's a pod counselor at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow we have marks level that he has an international relations and security analyst, or a gentleman cross type roles and the fact that means you can jump any time you want

. and i always appreciate it, right, let's kick it off with mark here in moscow. again, it's early days for this administration, but when trump came in, even as a candidate, he touted that he within the conflict in ukraine. and he's made a number of pronouncements all over the place, at least that's how i see it. um, and the latest thing is that, um, as part of this process, the trump plan, there has to be elections in ukraine. what's that all about in total? in total more what's going on here? maybe nothing is going on here. what's your thoughts? okay, so a little over a week ago, donald trump made a post on, on his social media truth social, where he made what is essentially threats and ultimatums to the russian government. this is the way that he often speaks to the american public right in

a populist way with screaming capital letters and demands and whatnot. he called the war ridiculous. he said he was trying to do the raj, a government of failure or a favor that their economy was failing, which is absolutely false that they had suffered extremely high casualties. which, you know, compared at least to the cambridge game is totally false. and a bit of a key of american or at least by new ministration, propaganda. and he sounded like a cross between a petulant child and a want to be mafia. don, no, no pun intended, on the done. so he, this was, we have to say probably absorbed with a grain of salt in, in moscow there wasn't much direct comments, certainly nothing from the russian president on this and simply with the threats of,

of sanctions, terrorist and taxes as, as if terrorist and taxes would affect rush at all, i don't really understand, but donald trump seems to like the words, the russian presidential spokesman said there's nothing new there. you know, we've weathered 24002nd since from the west at this point there's. there's absolutely nothing interesting for us in this book. yeah. but see the website. okay . black go ahead. i think there's been a reassessment. i think the for one thing we've heard from uh trumps. nominal piece on boy, the retired general kellogg, that the 100 days is out the window. all right, i mean at 1st we run 24 hours in that a 100 days and then they were talking 6 months. and now it's, this is extremely complicated and it may take some time, right? and, and so that's completely out. plus, i think we've received some other signal. trump has made some comments about being

in serious discussions already with the russian. is the russian say that's not happening, at least not at any high level. there has been no direct phone calls. the only direct communication so far has been that childish a social media post, but i would say that what it appears to be right now is the trump administration is reassessing and realizing how little leverage they have over the situation. and i think that is perhaps one of the most hopeful signs. quiet right now is actually good because it means they're taking a serious look at what's going on. that said, if there's quiet for too long, if russia in the us continue, if boot and then, and trump still don't even have a phone call right a month from now, then that is a sign of worry because that can become the new settlement norm. or. yeah, but best buy. okay. the given when mark said george, i mean a,

they kind of confirms that they really have never had a policy. and now, because of a serious look at it shows the number of challenges here mark did mention didn't mention something that is always in the cards. and it's something that george and i have talked about a great deal. is it? well, why not just keep it going, george? well, i think that so do most likely outcome because if there isn't any um the very 1st step. so i'm kind of a telephone call between a trump and boots and, and following on from that some kind of a, a subordinate between trump and boots and then i think it's uh, that there's no real prospect all of anything very much on the horizon. and then the, the, the most recent beams of you,

of given by general kellogg. and he gave with the on fox news that the integrated, the, there's nothing really very much, although then kellogg's face in trauma. the ability um, as a deal lake and he over and over again catalog mentioned this the bread bad. well, you know, trump is the, is a, do you make a, he's a, do you make a those have been charged? everybody knows, at least that's the mythology around trouble, but what is the deal? and that's exactly it, but we haven't had the deal. i mean, fact if you go back to his 1st, um, he really didn't make any deals as of what we have at the moment then is comp, intel are expressing some of you know, great, great optimism that they're there. they're moving towards something, but there's no indication because as, as far as one can understand what, what the drum plan is on the trunk deal is, which is, well, it's freeze the conflict in place. so it's just uh in, you know,

in the fighting. now, as it was, sees find out. um, is this now uh, let's, let's put off the, the nato business bureau into the. yeah, but it's joe, but you're sure that's all unilateral. that's all the unilateral. that's what i say that there's nothing. there's nothing in the, in that sort of plan that would appeal to anyone. it's not in the certainly it makes no sense for russia to accept as, as the spot in place. not a rustle have not gained anything very much. ukraine was certainly not accept anything like that. so, but that's, that's the drum plan. the only the full full aspect of all of these a year, which i think is deep and there is a different tone coming from the trump administration, as opposed to the buying the most are the only hope is they really don't want this will. they really don't like this war. they think this is a, a terrible thing for america. they want to focus on other things. and they are all speaking and very different ways from the way, the by doing ministration, spoken the way nato squared, which is what we're going to keep it going and you know that you know nothing

without. and that's nothing about the brain without the ukraine, as long as it takes them, whatever that's coming out of the window, whether that materializes, anything to any serious uh, you know, uh, negotiating changes. i know. oh, yeah. but you know, mark in the, the phrase came to me wouldn't mind while i was thinking about doing this program. play stupid games and you get stupid prizes. and this is what we've gotten mark. yes. um, i mean this, unfortunately, i think it's certainly situation that the binding, the ministration was the one most involved in the stupid game making. and unfortunately at least one from what we know of of his priorities. donald trump is the one who is bit one of the big stupid prize here. i mean he's, he's the one who has to take the big l or continue on with the bite ministration

plan. however, i would say usually i am the cynic and the pessimist. oh no, no judge you and george are very, yeah, headed okay. i'll of such things, particularly with donald trump, and i would say yes, quite obviously, his administration has no plan or if they had a plan, it's already been thrown out the window because the russians have made clear in numerous public statements, including repeatedly from putting themselves what they are not interested in right . one thing is they're not interested in ceasefire. what whatsoever, there will be no ceasefire. we played that game before. it was mens $1.00 and $2.00 were not giving the key every game time to re arm retrain and and, and give them a breather. no, we're waiting. now we're going to continue until there's a final settlement. also, the whole idea of you peacekeepers on the ground, not operating. i mean, you, you couldn't put that in there in the middle of the war. you're not going know, you're not going to win that way afterwards. right. they're still nato troops,

right? whatever have they or where it, however, i would say i've seen one positive, even optimistic, maybe data points. and that is general kellogg mentioning as you briefly alluded to, the idea that there should be elections in ukraine, right? because currently zelinski, even according to the quote on the elections as they have happened in ukraine since 2014, despite more than 20 p o, essentially all non my gone party is have been banned in the country, right? all parties representing east ukraine or all the left as parties in the country. so i don't consider any elections in ukraine legitimate, but that being said, boston has made clear that zalinski has passed his presidential expiration date. he's only continuing under presidential power is due to repeated declarations of, of, uh, emergency connected with the conflict. and so therefore that he is not a leader. he can't legally sign anything. right. he, even if they agreed right at

a to sit down and talk and agreed to a deal that russia could never rely on. it can ever be settled because of future ukrainian ministration could always say he didn't have the power to sign that right . it, it has no legal validity, and it seems the americans are taking this seriously for the 1st time because they have never mentioned the elections in ukraine before. and now suddenly they are after put and brought it up again in the last week. so, so they're not talking to each other on the phone, but they're talking mega phone diplomacy, social media, public statements, back and forth. and at least there's a sign that the trump administration is suddenly listening and taking seriously with the russian government is saying, even if there's no hope of of final settlement right there listening. and that hasn't happened in the last 3 years. so george, what is this is a gamut of, uh,

is this a, a new narrative to, to say, well, the, you create, the ukrainian people have decided it was their decision. yeah, i don't quite see the significance of it because really, ukraine isn't calling the shots here. ukraine, whoever is in charge is essentially a wholly owned dependency of nato, and that means all of the united states. so as the united states, that will decide whether this war comes to an end or that we continue with this was so the issue of whether the is zalinski is empowering key of or somebody else, some of the, some, you know, new and new phase. thanks. so much, i don't think it makes any difference. the only thing that matches is whether the united states wants to go on funding. there's an ultimately that's, that's always going to be the case because remember everybody who is expected trump to come to the, the, whatever the negotiating table or come to office and say, you know, what? was think of ukraine with cutting off

a t. that's what i'm going to do it anymore. this isn't the so it doesn't. so our interest. so, trunk has not said that. i mean that the mazda alluded to that the tweet or that trends that you sent out in which you seem to blame. yeah, well gosh, for the continuation of the bill, which was also dispense from what it he had said before, i'm which people had assumed he believed, which is that it's, it's ukraine, but it's keeping the will going and it's the american. so supporting your brain even go now, if the truck with to say that we need to cover all of the appraisal that that would make the difference, make the difference right gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard group will continue our discussion on some real new stay with our to

the a. when i went to the wrong just don't you have to safe house the courtesy and engagement because the trail when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for the common ground, the the welcome back across that bull horns. were all things considered on peter level? george, we've heard of coming out of the trump uh,

administration on 2 different occasions. the 1st time was it was more off the cuff and we didn't see any video was trump on air force one. and he was basically saying that, um, um, the situation in uh in gaza has to be cleaned up our words that effect here. and basically talking about the, populating a garza and i guess presumably one would say the west bank. but the wasn't mentioned directly from the word what the word was in used in american media, but everywhere else it's a ethnic cleansing he double down, triple down, quadruple down in and, and in a different uh, as a subsequent occasion here. um, do we take this seriously? because as i said in my introduction, trump probably doesn't want to be called genocide dawn. is this going to let's move these people. and of course the radical right in israel is welcome this. i mean, they're singing to the had been, this is exactly what they wanted for

a very long time. now they have an american president m. uh, stating it publicly. what are your thoughts? just i thought it was very strange to be honest with it because um you, you stopped it off. uh, is administration with steve wick off his emissary. uh, going to um israel and sending them hi. you've got to get with the program. you've got to agree to this, so hostage of prison a deal uh immediately you know, some sabbath, no sabbath, you know we, we get it done now. um and width of himself using gaza, which is exactly what quite a thing for, for an american official actually to visit guys. and so this is quite shocking. what i've seen, there's nothing less this a, i mean this is best would be complete to destroy it. i mean, this is going to take 15 years to rebid. oh. so you know, this was a, a different tone. and then, and then trump was a talking in this way. and as you said, you know, double down,

triple down going drop it off, which itself is surprising because trump, himself has never really been illogically, particularly committed to is what he did. they've been during his 1st, i'm because he needed the money. you need to this the donors so you know, from the design is little bit up until then you have the, the said nothing particularly noteworthy about is what i mean didn't 20152016. when he arrived, he promised and even hand the approach to the middle ages. so i'm going to come up with a great deal um between the israel and the palestinians. so now it's come up with this. egypt and jordan have both absolutely rolled it out. now. he can then say, yeah, but we can, we had a, we have a leverage over that and you know, basically, you know, the dependencies allows, we can, you know, really, uh, press them if it goes down that thought it really does threaten egypt. hey, we're going to withhold the, you know, the annual full $1000000000.00, the pension to you,

unless you play ball with us. you see those go down that far. i think that's kind of the end of his any kind of them. at least the agenda is going to lose saudi arabia's gonna lose all the gulf states. they're all gonna have anything to do with them. they're not going to go along with he is. um um you know, he's a, he is of the abraham records or anything else. so you know, if that's what he wants to do if he wants to just align himself. but you know, with, with uh, with israel become, is this a general so i dont then that's it but that's, that's the end of his me least agenda probably also the end of his administration. i think it's going to be like it'll fade out as a, as dismally as the binding of them just ration faded out. what do you think mar is this? again, you know, you never can tell with trump because he does. his diplomacy is his banter to the public. it's the word megaphone has already been mentioned here. is this an opening gambit? isn't it a, um, uh, sugar ring a deal with is real. you know,

it's hard to say what he really thinks about this because we all know he's not, you know, particularly well versed in these issues as mark. yeah. i think maybe we're talking about different trump administrations because my recollection of the 1st trump administration is that there has never been a u. s. presidential administration. more in bed with and in line with israel. uh then you know, previously, i mean that that is the culmination. and we, i was absolutely certain when we heard about that and yahoo suddenly accepting a ceasefire proposal that he had rejected out of hand from the binding administration a year earlier and doing it without much public complaint and carrying, throw on it that there had to be carrots involved as well as fix. and now we can see clearly what uh the car it is is that trump would get fully behind the ethnic,

cleansing of the palestinians out of palestine. right, which it must be said has been the policy of every is railey and every us president for decades since 19 sixty's. right. that has been the quiet not said policy. it's just been occurring one settlement, one house bows at a time. right. that is the settling process, the colonization of palestine by what are essentially, you know, us and european jewish or to immigrants you know, to well, palestine uh, you know, in, in, on behalf of israel. um, so for the greater is real project. so now it's the quiet part is being said out loud. obviously the time table is vastly accelerated. everything is now considered different. the bind administration already approached this,

blinking went to egypt and jordan and tried to get them to open the borders. everyone who was paying attention, know what that was about. they did say we want to move all the palestinians outright. they're talking about refugees, but with the conflict and everything. but that was obviously egypt enjoy ever. but the but, but isn't the best really the selling point, george? i mean, is cool, is this may sound, is it? well, no more bombing, you know, no more demolition. i mean, we just have to move these people out. i mean, we don't want to be like the bite administration we don't want, i mean, it, it's, it's a cold, a deflection way they would, they don't want to go, you know, we, we don't support, you know, what was happening for 15 months. there we have a better solution and wicker. yeah. our own boy went there. nobody can live here. i mean, is this what the, how they're trying to sell this? and again, it's already been a little bit to this would include the west bank as well. not just because of

george. well, let maybe the idea behind is, but it's a, it's an in the same idea and it's, it's called work. i mean, each shift. um, so 40 years ever since the, uh, the signing of the uh, the camp that was almost 50 years now ever since the signing of the uh, the camp david accords has point blank, refused to cooperate with any display plans in campaign um within palestine. georgia has refused to cooperate with that. i mean, well, this will be absolutely insane for any leader of egypt, any leader of jordan, to go along with what would be millions of people being displayed. i mean, there's low, there's low rate for them. there's no money to how's the bit but as your resume, but you're just creating terrorism, you would destroy the egyptian stadium of destroying jordan. well george, these are vassal states of the united states. they can have regina change. i'm sorry, i'm just cynical is cynical, is both of you. well, if these 2 lead leaders are a barrier,

then we should replace them towards calico try. i mean that by spurts where they go try. but again, if you don't do that, you're going to create an absolute uh, tell them, well, in the for what you're going to get, get on the phone for hold big, big country. i mean, you turn turmoil for home, mark. yeah, bread. turn to israel for a true for everyone, right for, for egypt, for israel and for the united states. because if you remove the c, c home is a quote unquote elected military dictator. he came to power over throwing a popularly elected is law, missed government, right? very close to home us, right? and i'll cc the current a. egypt and government, they don't like come us right there. they're against the muslim brotherhood. they consider home of the palestinian muslim brotherhood. but they, as you said, they don't walk 4 or 5000000 more palestinian refugees. egypt is, has such a uh,

you know, young focus demographic so much on employment, so much poverty. they exist off of subsidies. i'm academically from saudi arabia and the entire egypt sin military is. this is one of the biggest recipients of u. s. military aid. but they, they just can't do it. they can't absorb these refugees. they know they can't. right. and they don't want to be the ones culpable for the genocide. uh, you know, the, uh, inactive genocide, the ethnic cleansing of the palestinian people out of palestine. no matter how much pressure um trump towards on egypt, i simply can't see it happening. or the iranians have trolling tongue in cheek suggested in an alternative solution that instead, right to bring as, as donald trump finally have some piece in the region, right, we could simply move the israelis from israel and we could resettle them. and

donald trump's newly conquered greenwood, i interestingly enough, neither the israelis nor the people of greenland seemed overly induced by that idea . but maybe that will port in the context for americans who are, you know, die hard. israel 1st supporters for whatever reason. i really can't find them other than christian zionism that you know what it would mean to move all of the palestinian people out of palestine simply to make what jared questionnaire said. you know, a beach front property available for investment. well, i mean, the poverty of this whole situation gentlemen, i'm going to george now, is that the active genocide is re ignited after a certain interval. we know that the so called cease fire is going to collapse in nano seconds after the last hostage leaves a mouse or gaza captivity. we know that. okay,

so maybe this is just an inner load until then it's possible. but the, this is why i was talking about the trumps peculiarity is the trump has low and this is the logical commitment. i mean, mug is right. he what he pice you during this 1st of went far beyond any of the things that any previous administration had done in catering to israel swims, but he did it in order to get money in order to generate a revenue for his re election campaign. now he can just come, come and look at it in a different way. if he goes down this boss of essentially signing off on the eighty's really janice, i'm it. that's why policy bill do. i think it will be able destroy. it is a business ration. he will be there, we're going to get over to revile in the united states and he will be seen as having facilitated and presided over this horrific genocide file. was there anything we've seen since 1948? is that what he wants? is that what he wants to be? yeah,

and then it's like ministration. i doubted it's very interesting we have already. and then in the very short time he's been in office. he is, makes constant references to real estate. we saw that on in all your ration day. now we say to very, very interesting them are the moral issue here doesn't ever seem to arise the, to the for gentlemen, the fascinating discussion so little time. so it might so many interesting things as i want to thank my guess in budapest and here in moscow. and of course, i want to thank their viewers for watching us here to our t z and next time remember prospect bruce.

the wanted to come here since i was 12, when my grandfather told me that his mom came from russia is that we are, i was part russian. i didn't plan on staying as long as gonna look around. i was gonna see if it was for me, but then i came and then i was like, i remember when i go home, i've never been happier in life than i am here in most of the i've only lived here a few months, but i wanted to tell you what fascinates me about russia and share the stories of other foreigners who lived here like jay who worked as a chef and now raises goats and makes cheese in the countryside series. like chad who has been granted political asylum because he's being persecuted by the f. b. i . us, embassies. and for countries that come after me it's, it's wild like an american family that recently moved to russia with 6 children. i've never felt safer atlanta higher life than living here.

the if you think about russia, what does your mind picture the bottom landscapes open up before your lines? the last one does. you imagine the veto? scott starts the journey, the the you ready to come along the cold in march, 1944,

a desk and created on hitler's personal odor. scott practitioner: it wasn't simply a mutual dice. us became a weapon for mass murder. when the can do to survive in an open, this one step is to get through. he said, you knew it was that the lives of what you see, what of the shallow show a feel like you feel a that's the only the full set of via leads me up the