unless that is the for so is the deal of a still an ocean where y'all are somewhere else that you think your soon as the right, they're going to deduct months. you submitted in your the, the telling me is that a quick call momma get that to me in to there's a do the same action redundancy and welcome to going underground, broadcasting all around the world for the whole lot of them, at least with tomorrow, the u. a professor who's global leaders of the world government summit, 2025. like out the gcc countries view a condemn what's out of the crown prince. mom had been solving cold a genocide in gaza, widely seen as a tactical, strategic moral and military defeats, designed as a israel is u. s. u k. you um,

genocide, architect netanyahu is actually due back in court today for corruption, not genocide, just days after sitting beside trump in washington, when the us president propose the ethnic cleansing of gaza. that's when they go back to violence. it continues in this region with is rails mass killing and 11 in the west bank loan and syria. now in the throes of partition between turkey, israel and l kindly groups. but while most of the world sees israel is actions of what they are, it's not so in the countries arming is ro, decreases eyes. israel and nato countries, as seen as anti semitic. even if you are jewish and jews around the world have been at the forefront of opposition to the genocide, being jewish off to the destruction of gaza, a reckoning is a new volume from professor peter by not editor at large of jewish currency, joins me now from new york for best buy not to thank you so much for coming on. you say in the new book, it's about the story jews tell themselves to block out. the screams were in the week of a jewish holiday. to be sure that if i pronounced that correctly one month from

something go pour him, tell me way right about the program and its relevance to the gaza genocide. sure. so on portland edges. read the book of esther from the hebrew bible and the book of esther is a famous story. it's the story of his story and in in persia, in which a, this figure called haman tries to organize the genocide of destruction of the, of the jews. and that's usually the way the story is told, certainly in the united states, the story of a kind of an attempt to genocide against the jews and survival in force given that jews not so long ago. indeed were the victims of genocide in europe. the story is very, very resident smart for many people. the point i try and making the book is that the story is more complicated than that because it ends, in fact, with the power dynamic being reversed. and the jewish liter modify overseeing. i'm

or i'm kind of massacre of that use adversaries. and the point i try to make is it's jewish sacred text actually betrayed use in a whole range of different ways. in the full complexity that we have as human beings as victimizers and as victims, we can be in both roles like any other group of human beings can be. but i think this part of our own tradition is often actually kind of blocked out in contemporary discourse. which i think is related to the fact that in much us discourse, the story is real. palestine is put within this framework of the historic oppression of the jewish people, which makes it harder for us to see some of the realities that actually exist. yeah, i mean we, we've had the ministers in is rarely cabinets. we've had the full or is there any prime minister on this road? i think you walked out. they usually walk out for some reason. if we had that, who would brock on? why do you think they don't see that the most dangerous place in the world to be

a jew now, is israel? well i, i think that the trauma of jewish history leading to the idea that as a jewish state, a state in which use whole power, the jews rule would be a response that would keep you safe after the holocaust was i think in some way didn't understandable impulse even the, even something like edward so he'd be great policy and intellectual who was a fierce critic of zionism said he could understand the experience. and the impulse from which this movement came. the problem is, when you deny people basic human rights as this route does towards the palestinian people in a variety of different ways. holding them under military rule in the west bank, holding them under blockades, in, in, in guys, out in the mass. all of the refugees were expelled in 19481967. that gives a system of structural violence. and when you impose that violence on people,

we know from political science literature that actually makes a country less safe for everybody. so the core contention in my book is that jews are safer under conditions of legal equality. then we are under conditions of legal supremacy. yeah, and other people do make that point, but perhaps a new book is more dangerous designs is choose than you hope of because you use scripture, historical scripted to show how it is being manipulated in seeing synagogues. if i'm getting that right to kind of create an idea of what being a jew is to help the conflation between being a jew and being someone who's able to commit genocide as well. i think that judaism is a vast religious tradition. so like christianity islam, it speaks in many, many different voices, right? but i think that what has happened in recent decades is with this as no nationalist

project in some ways has swallowed up in, in many jewish communities. so some of judy isms, more universal istic message about the universal incident dignity of all people. i think this is something that seems to be happening more broadly around the world. when i look at white, many white christians in united states, i'm really struck in the trump era by how they seem to think that the only human beings who have any value in the world are people who have american passports. as i understand christianity, that's really not christianity's message at all. right. but it's a kind of way in which christianity has been swallowed by a kind of f know nationalism. and i think we see in judaism, tragically, in certain jewish communities, a similar dynamic in which allegiance to this state and its project of jewish domination over palestinians is actually considered to be more important than certain core principles of judaism itself. again. and the core principle that all human beings are created in the image of god. and there are therefore,

all human beings have inherent value and dignity. yeah. and, and going back to what you said about poor him, the moral you say is that it's not just the danger of gentiles to jews, is the danger of the jews bows to gentiles. but as you write about this, you had to preface the book with the threats range against you for thinking the way you do about the goals and genocide as well. i wouldn't say threats. i mean, i, i live compared to certainly people in guys a and many other people around the world and even towards compared to really use. i live a very, very safe and privileged life in united in the united states. so i wouldn't say that i face threats. i do think that there, but when you strongly criticized around raise questions about the very legitimacy of a states that privilege is use or palestinians in, in, in jewish communities and united states and around the world, you're likely to get very, very few years pushed back and i think, you know, there, nobody likes a turn coat, a trait or right there is

a sense in jewish tradition that we imagine ourselves use as a kind of a family. and people tend not to like the person in the family who is accusing others in the family of doing really bad things. but to me, this is a tradition of descent. but it's a necessary, in any society, in any community and that we'd use also have this traditional descent in our own tradition and is one that i think it must be continued. because what israel is doing is for family morally wrong seems to me by universal moral standards, but also by, according to what i consider to be judy is own best traditions. and why do you think uh, for the most part, watching all the goc run the media in your country and in other nato countries. the country is supplying the weapons for the genocide. people like, you don't seem to really exist apart from the old protests because of course it must be made in the jews and being the full front of protests in the united states and in britain and in european countries against once we napping and gaza or yeah,

i mean, look, i don't think, i don't think i'm for say all the guards control the media institutions is only a nato phenomena. i think that sadly, that exists all over the world. so i think that the, the discourse about israel in the united states has, generally, uh, you know, it has generally been a discourse and was palestinians have not had what said famously calls permission to narrate and was pausing. these have not really been full fledge members. environmental, even during that palestinians, i mean on rupert murdoch's walks news, which trump apparently watches daily then. oh, jews that are and designers on fox news. no, that's true. i mean, i think it part of the way one need to understand this, i think, is that israel's founding miss are very similar to america's founding. that these are both nations that could think of themselves as kind of promise, lance fords on a hospital frontier. so if you're talking about fox news in the american rights, which are deeply invested in america as founding this and would seriously resist

any effort to reckon with what the united states did in the 19th century to its native population. it's not surprising that they would also be very sympathetic to israel's fat mist founding missed as well and very hostile to any critical interrogation of that. and would you go so far as to say that supporting what israel did is to be empty jewish in a way? no, i don't think so. i wouldn't say that because i don't think that 110, a centralized what it means to be jewish or to be just like or any other religious tradition, the route. the truth is that these religious traditions have always spoken in a multiplicity of voices and different people. have interpreted those traditions in different ways. what i would say is that my understanding of being jewish is one that that emphasizes the ethical message within judaism of q, of, of human dignity and edi. i believe that what israel has done is in

a front to that. yeah, i mean, i mean to tear on there's a big jewish. yeah, there's quite a jewish community, entire run. they oppose israel, although 91 that has not one that has not that one. that not the one that has freedom because nobody in iran has has to freedom. right, well, well you're gonna have the unit i represent was gonna have a big argument about what freedom means, of course. but in a run, the very not the freedom to do. you want to protest against the government. right. actually talking about protests against the government. what have you made of the fact that the whole visa's full protest is for foreign students who are going to be it may affect your university. they're going to be deployed. and of course, the use of tear gas and violence against protesters in your country. about god's yes, i mean is that there's no question that there's been growing amounts of oppression even under started under by them. but it's escalated under trump of protestors who support palestinian rights and um, and so it's gotten worse and, and the people who are most vulnerable to this are not are,

those were not us citizens. and of course, were part of the eliza part of trump larger crack down against americans who are not us citizens. but this excuse that, that pro policy and protesters are, are pro, hama is. it is a, is a way of stripping them of their rights. and i think it's a, we're going to look at this period as one of the periodic and, and, and terrible periods of the repression of american civil liberties. there were the palmer raids and the early 19 twenties, the mccarthy period of the 1950s. and now i think sadly, we're entering into another year, i like that. although it was that during the by d blinking, we call them genocide, joe, but you're blinking a era to it was trump that stuff the aerial bombardment of guys that we must by investment repression of pro policy and protesters is now getting worse under fonts, abiding and blinking, although i think their policies, uh where, where, where, where horrify in terms of the, you know, unconditional support, military support for israel, they did not threaten to deport student students on the,

on visa that american universities who were protesting against israel's destruction, of god, obeys, doing that all be at the lack of faith 1st amendment rights that happened during the bible ministration, facebook posts, and so on. does it, does it affect it? has it affected you that when you talk about god with facebook, both those before, you know and know it has it look, i mean that the united states under donald trump is becoming a less free society and for, for people who wanted to protest for palestinians. they have always been, they have always been greater restrictions been on people who wanted to protest. so and some other ways. but it's also still the case that it was possible for people, you know, over the last year and a half at, to, to, to organize mass protest in united states against this war. and, and, um, you know, and for the most part, people were able to do that without being locked up for quite

a few people. they looked up though be to buy that out. so i'll start then maybe i'll stop by that. but they know not, not in the way you would do, right? not in the way you would be in a truly authoritarian regime where you would be put in some prison for, for, you know, for a decade go ahead. be there by that. i'll stop you. the more from the older being jewish after the destruction of god, 0, reckoning after this, break the, [000:00:00;00]

the, [000:00:00;00] the welcome back to going on the right. i'm still here with peter buying. i'd be editor at large of jewish cards and professor of journalism and political science at the city university of new york. professor i was interrupting you there when you were defending your free rights and freedom in the united states. something that we very examined on this program in great detail and i don't know, i could be, it's not the girl quite as free as you suggest or nor as it has been. but of course another criticism viewable could be that why do you blame israel? which as you said before,

has some kind of excuse because the jews who inhabited the descendants of those itself with the holy ghost in your, for those who wants to blame of the nato countries arming israel does knowing that, and yo, and those idea of soldiers could have done what they did without the weapons that came from your country and nato countries. you don't think that you're putting too much of the blame on these a zionist settlers and the jews in israel when they couldn't have done anything like the like what they did do without a bite and obviously, and your opinion and british governments showing no, i've been very critical of the united states government for its unconditional military support and diplomatic support for israel in putting during this, this goes to destruction. so i, i entirely agree with you. part of my argument, especially made to choose united states is that we need to act in the united states

to try to be part of the movement to change us policy. and what do you think has happened with this? obviously it is the worst, the genocide or a century, it's being called the holocaust. what is it? what effect does it have on the jewish americans? because the poles of showed the jews in the united states do sympathize with some of the issues in your book, which whereas before we would never seen anything like that or yeah, i think that i think the term genocide is i think there's, there's good reason to believe this, i'm genocide apply like i would resist the term holocaust because i think that suggests and that kind of it, did they the genocide of jews that took place in nazi germany was, was very different in many ways from what's happening to policy is as in gaza as har, finding the house is, i don't think i don't, i don't think that i don't think it. does anyone any good to, to, to try to make those historical equivalencies. the point is that genocide has an international legal definition. so we can apply it to what we've done and rolanda we've been, we're required to what's being done and change on. we can apply it to us,

be the guys that we can the i know to imagine yang, we can do. people can watch. i are a show, imagine drag and how usa i be manufactured, that right, you go to another. i know that the chinese, i know that there are people who want it to defend the chinese government to human rights abuses as well, just like that. people defend human rights if he's, i'm not i'm, i'm understanding the job. he's gone by not married, but i think that what you see among americans use is that is a division of opinion on english. the instance that they've kind of jewish institutions that have the most power tend to support israel unconditionally, but that there is a growing group of jews, particularly younger americans use. so i think see, what is what i was doing as an affront to their basic values. the values of the kind of progressive values that they hold as, as american as progressive americans. and as progressive use, of course the book clearly states comparisons, as you've said earlier in part one about the, about what the united states for instance, did to native americans. but you compare directly palestinian resistance to the i r

a and island, and the a n. c in the south africa. of course that that's the case for violence. clearly, i mean, i've interviewed nelson mandela. mandela clearly supported against the views of the south african communist buddy, be killing of civilians in restaurants. what do you think the impact of your book is for of jews who live in israel? a in the, in the sense that the violence must be part of the struggle. if indeed it can be compared, right. i like the life or guy. i think that there is a very important distinction between violence against military targets and, and violence against civilians. i think that's a very important distinction. international law, i think it's a very important moral distinction. is that why do you think that that value is successful in the i ray with success mondale, edmondo adults? i'm adela and amc actually worked quite hard to maintain that distinction. even

going so far is apologizing for attacks against the villian sites. but pat african has congress and other the and seized arrivals were more open to, to, to attacks on civilians. but i think one of the things that the and see does, there's a lot of credit for was it makes me i wrong. but later on it may be said, i mean know for some of the current as far as the islands in the 1950. if want to watch, the amc was far, far more scrupulous about a civic attacks on civilians than homos has been a mosque going back to the 1990 with his continued attack on, on pizza re is on on buses. and now on october 7th, i've been far, i've been far more willing to attack and target civilians, which i think is deeply unfortunate in to me in my mind on assets on tomorrow. yeah, i think violence, political violence is always a up for that debate, but it's, it's way you show in the book in great detail. the kind of magic is of a good in colonial struggles. why do you see it as a colonial settler struggle like malmo, the mama movement in ken here against the british for instance?

right. i mean it's colonial in a very simple sense in the palestinians. are subjects, policies in the west bank and gaza and most policies in east jerusalem on subjects of the state, but not citizens. they are under the control of the states, but they are not represented in its government. and i think that's a very simple definition of what of what colonialism needs. do you think? what's most moving about the book to many people or could be the most moving to some use in israel? is the fact that you didn't think like this before. your thirty's just tell me a little bit about that who and whether israel is a kind of to tell a terry and colonial so to a state as well, or as the elements of it to be able to make someone like you not realize the everyday existence a palestinian is even though you were there in israel, round holloway. i don't know that i would. i don't know that i would use the time to tell it to harry and it's certainly, it's certainly not a but it is a state that palestinians do live under military law in the west bank, which means they lack the most basic freedoms,

the freedom to move move the freedom of movement to freedom, right, to due process, the right to vote. and it's true that i think like many other jews in united states and elsewhere, a is my, my understanding of these around my relationship to israel was seen through the press. the prism of what is around meant to jews within the framework of jewish history, especially modern jewish history and holocaust is a sense of kind of security knowing that there was a country in the world that always would take use in if use were in danger. and that was the way that they kind of israel was narrated to me growing up. i think it took a long time, much, much longer than i wish it had for me to actually begin to really wrap up with what israel met for palestinians. what as edward said, called zion is there from the standpoint of it, the victims that and, and, and um, it was really only in the 1st time that i, you know, we'd only my thirty's better for the 1st time. spent time with policies in the west bank and realize that this system,

this state was much more brutal than i had recognized um and that um that the palestinian experience was one that really forced me to rethink the way i thought about the state. as you mentioned, edward say, the great palestinian christian school, do you think you'd be allowed to teach in the united states today in the united states because i keep getting reports of all sorts of the mccarthy style antics in academia or in your country? no, i think so, you wouldn't be allowed to, you know, i wouldn't be allowed to teach. i mean, his iraqis, khalidi of columbia, who with his, he holds the edwards a chair and has views which are not so different was as now just taking a meritus status. but we're still teaching at columbia. but i do think that it's when you go from scholarship and teaching to kind of openly confronting the university through activism,

from protests and even civil disobedience. then we've seen that the repression has been quite severe. i'm what i know you really don't like donald trump. i've had some why do you think it was that it was only donald trump, that stuff the aerial bombardment of gods are these horrific pictures of genocide and do you know how silly i'm sure you were looking at them to on our phones as a live streamed a continuous massacres. trump got it. stopped. not the democrats. yeah, i mean i, i think that i think lavinia was scared of trump in a way that he was not scared divided because trump is extremely erratic and vindictive and, and also that trump really cares. press primarily really about himself. and so i think trump saw that coming into office and having a hostage of neil some kind of seats, 5 deal would make him look good. and then yeah, who want it to make trump look good in order to ingratiate himself withdrawn. and

of course he's allied to i don't know what you think your mike huckabee, your ambassador, the us investor to a israel. it just, uh, you know, it really talk about about it that much in the book, but this is alliance between christian zionism and, and zion is who, who anyway, believe that all the jews have to die anyway on the day of judgment. well yes, i mean, the more i d submitted that, you know, i think that the position of the present chevy is really government about christian theology of n times would be we don't really need to worry about that. we don't think that's going to happen. but i think that the, to me to understand christian white christian zionism, you can't see it only through a religious framework to me. it is very much the expression of america is on settler colonialism. these are people who are really mythologized and, and, and, and out, and, and, and defend from any criticism americans, genocide, that america committed in the 19th century. and have

a very clear view of kind of hierarchy between different peoples of different races and religious groups. and so i think it's in that framework that one can understand, understand that kind of profound the racist view, that someone like how i might taught to be has towards palestinians and towards muslims and towards many other people's. but they never have to get to the know, but the problem there between on about judgment day and that. yeah, i mean p kelsey tags. that's the head of the pentagon. of course. now. yeah. and jasmine doesn't, you know, no, none of us have seen judgment day. so to see a radical proposition. but do you think it probably is pretty anti semitic? i mean, i think there are there very there to there is anti semitism. clearly among there's a strange combination of anti semitism on file of them. it isn't that you find on the question, right, which i would say essentially use are really beloved when use participate in a project that these folks like which is a project of kind of s no nationalist domination. they would use become

a about com adversaries when use a post that project. and just finally, how long do you think it'll take for the world to fully understand what this 15 months of genocide and gaza hasn't meant to the world? really? i mean, i think it's probably if you looked at public opinion, a great many people in the world already do recognize that this has been one of the great crimes of the 21st century. the question whether that will translate into paul into political action by governments that have power, i think is very much an open question. especially because the many governments including my own, i'm moving in an authoritarian direction in which they are less responsive to public opinion. if it happens a game, you're right, is equal to being jewish. presumably in the next god, god, god willing that won't be necessary, but we'll see. progressive either by the thank you. thank you. that's it for the show. being a jewish off to the destruction of guys, a reckoning is uh, that will be back with a brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch 5 or less as you'll media

. if it's nonsense and you'll country and that to a channel going under warranty. if you hon, they'll come to a new and old episodes. i'm going, i'm going to survey the, [000:00:00;00] the russian states never as tight as i'm one of the most sense community best most i'll send send the send the 65 with the keys 195 must be the one else calls. question about this, even though we will then in the european union,

the kremlin mission, the state on russia cruising and supports the r t supposed neg, keeping our video agency roughly all the band on youtube tv services. what question did you say from stephen twist, which is the the

history of the new school to each of them? that's why i decided not let me set this up. i'm one was in which is stuck in the truth of what really happened here in. he's one of the, the german soldiers to deal with. the weather wasn't taking the picture. they were proud of. the most of the, these concern is rustic in between menu whole for an o h. and so when you see this sentence in a big problem in the presence of the war, even seen him and changed out on the mission, the bidding, the from definitely even see this of the shower head or 2nd change the there's a lot of photographs. oh, that is evidence that shows that you know, certain most photograph what's not taking balances,