in russia, in pseudo, by a last november, the friendship between the 2 countries, etc, has a long lasting legacy is stored in the mid if it is necessary to note here too that this cooperation did not arise today and or even yesterday. so the soviet union, in the 19 sixty's, essentially created the indonesian navy during presidency condos, leadership of the country, and within the we created a navy. so i'm a fairly full fledged navy for them, including the submarine fleet. this was in the late 19 sixty's, our navy transferred 12 about diesel powered project, 613 submarines to indonesia. something to do now i want to board but tie it in as the one we've got a hospital ship together with delegations from all participant countries. as the fleet is ready for one of the highlights of the event, the international leap review, this brand naval parade showcases the strength of maritime courses from around the world. but behind this impressive worship plays

a crucial mask. each cooperation at sea is key to global security. this exercise aligns with the nation's diplomatic mission to support its foreign policy. it underlines the navy's main task to enhance regional security and showcase its role as a key player in international maritime peace efforts. the same sentiment is expressed by the russian easy. the exercise is not something new for the russian forces. it is being conducted for the importance of enhancing mutual understanding. i'm not sure it could. i believe i'm not sure. so our ships and all turn come together without partners will fine tune those search and rescue support tasks should have peculiar to the shift that they practice during routine combat training activities . and the only particularity would be that these activities will be practiced with partners from other nations who have slightly different techniques, slightly different approaches to doing so. it's an activities that submit the

existing security challenges and tensions of the 21st century. this partnership approach serves as a reminder of the responsibility that these nations share in ensuring maritime peace and stability. it'd be kind of reporting from bali for r t in an easy. oh cool. it's one of the lightest inductees to the ever expanding brick strategic family. and the g d, p of the bricks has already overtaken back of the g 7. the gap is only going to grow as a multi point of world, increasingly forages. it's placed on the global stage, and this is the, [000:00:00;00]

the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . now the hard part starts russian, the united states, the greeks, the bloodletting and ukraine must come to an end. but getting there is hard, very hard. there is so little trust and the europeans who wants to accomplish the continue will do everything they can to prevent peace. the cross talking ukraine, i'm joined by my guess, caring fields kosky in mount jackson. she is a retired air force lieutenant colonel, having served at both

n s a and the office of secretary of defense in salt lake city. we have david pine . he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security and basil. we crossed the on break, the lease and coach. he is a former ukrainian diplomat. all right, cross talk rules and effect. that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciated, karen, let me go to you 1st and mount jackson. so many things are happening. it's hard even for us, that are news, the people to keep up with it. but i'd like to start with a very broad brush question to you over the last, particularly last week or so. it seems to me that the post world war 2, security and importantly, cultural consensus in the west is falling apart. is that a fair characterization? it's either falling apart or the narrative about it is falling apart. one of the 2 things is happening. reality is starting to emerge. it's undeniable. it's been undeniable for people that have been looking at this closely. but um,

american politicians have not been they've been playing a game for a long time. certainly under the past 2 administrations, really. so what trump is trying to do, i think, is figure out what the truth is as a starting point. yes, very interesting because david, a lot of people were very, very critical of pegs that the secretary of defense when he came out and said, would be administration's approach. uh, no nato, for ukraine. no us troops. ukraine is going to have to accept the territorial losses. and just as good, karen just said, i mean that these are facts, these are, these are, these are not creating political facts. these are hard realities and he was criticized for it. but i think that's exactly the approach that has to be taken. because from that point from starting from there, then you can still deal with problems with both sides legitimately can raise. go ahead david or yeah, it's very refreshing to see the tops of drop in ministration officials talking

a realistic way. i mean, everyone knows that the, that's, that's going to be the end, the end of piece agreement. there is no peace possible and less, you know, a peace deal. is it a minimal acceptable to the russian federation? and so, you know, i think the truck ministration is, is going about in a good way. i don't think he gave up any leverage at all by making those statements . because moscow, it was the criminal, it has made clear that there has to be some kind of an agreed upon piece framework . i'm that, that uh, you know, include some of their key elements of, of a piece deal of that in order for there to be a ceasefire. so i think i pj accessed statements have moved us halfway there. that's a good point here. um, but i also who gets a seat at the table here as a, as a farmer, ukrainian diplomat. i would posit the following. you're obviously have the right to disagree with me. but zalinski gave away ukraine sovereignty, so it had it with the country with no sovereignty. it doesn't have

a seat at the table, but that was a craving choice on the part of zalinski in his uh clique around him, which of course he did. he followed orders from washington in london and brussels. so too bad you gave away your store i t b and he's not even like a legitimately legally the, the president of ukraine. so forfeiture. that's what to what did someone tell me a recent play. you play stupid games and you get stupid prizes. go ahead. andre, i would agree on you on this. unfortunately for my country salons, tea and the former government, praying on report shameful, has electric, right, and totally down bloss of total sovereignty after the 2014 where i was in the government, when we saw all these, my probations by the united states embassy united states government on telling ukraine, go on what to do, who to appoint who to fire and who to high and how to get ready, the monthly and how to do the works and the government. basically we were

a total on solving the country and today is crazy, has lost it at the end of all of what it was very has happened was all they come out and support the west space and also saying it's also economically at this point . the wednesday, not only is, is not legitimate president. he is not able to speak for the country itself. the country is looking for for change. the brain, france, when he was r, for a loan, with all these propaganda, do not want the last you there. so he does not represent the country, you cannot represent, you pay all the tech stocks. so what is the question? who is here? who represents the frame to the future elections, making the change because any of those is going to be elected are the, there's all position a crazy that was this point by the west. and why? because there was support democracy. he pray that. so there's nobody to choose from . so what is the answer, chatting the praise you representative properly here,

you have some candidates in the pony which is legitimate and can be part of the negotiations. but they can be only part of the rush, certainly likes these agree upon a deal that will be represent the level and see frame for the purchase europe itself. because there are also lost sovereignty to the situation. so this friction with, basically the way it's always been on the computer to me or, well, you know, again this is as seats at the table. karen, the europeans obviously are furious, but they're not given a seat. but why should they be given a seat? they have, they were entrust, and with the men's process, they were failures. not only were they failures, they lied. okay. they lied to the public. they lied to the russians. they lied. unfortunately, most of all to the people of the don bass, so they forfeited there was a seat at the table. and why in the world with zelinski and the you be given a safe? if they don't want a piece, they want more. why should they be able to say a peace conference? go ahead. yeah, they should not be, they should not be. and i think um, you know,

the, the ingredients, most of the admitted lives that germany and, and others who weren't supposed to be the guarantors of the makes agreements. they publicly admitted some years later, after rowers were people in suspected. this was the case, but they probably embraced it as if it was a positive as it lying. and, and lying about your commitments to piece even years ago in 2014. was that that was okay. that was okay. they were justified in doing that. so it is right for anyone who wants peace in europe. anyone who wants peace anywhere, they have nothing but contempt for most of the european leaders and they have not earned the right to see that it's not only that they don't want it, they don't want peace. clearly they are dependent on this continued conflict, but they don't deserve a seat at the table and they cannot be trusted, those individuals and those who are supporting the ones who, who lied about their guarantor function. and so we just want to strengthen ukraine

for more war. anyone align with those people should, is automatically disqualify ends, the landscape, chose a very poorly with the friends that you would surround himself with. well, they've all the more so david, i mean, we did have a weeks after the conflict started in 2022. we had the assembled process again, zalinski forfeited his country's fortunes. okay. why would you trust someone like that to be around a negotiating table? i mean, he chose for himself and is, is a clique around him and is western friends. he chose badly for his own people. david, the absolutely right. you created a you don't, they don't to service a seat at the table because they've, they've refused to sit at the table. oh goodness, been sitting alone at the table waiting for uh, you know, the us and ukraine and i guess you to, to join them in the conflict in,

in uh you know, dado leaders vitamin and you creative. not allowed it a lot, rush it in the conflict with the negotiated disagreement. um so, um, you know, that's been, that's been 3 years. the simple agreement was, i think it would have been a victory for everyone. it would have been a win win win for russia. it would have been a winfrey, ukraine. you know, russia would have withdrawn from most as 8 of loss. ukraine could have had a 93 percent of its internationally recognized territory. and of course, russia likely would've been next the people's republic, so that i don't ask in lieu, hence, but that would have been the end of it. ukraine would have been neutral, it would have been a peace and it would have been had true security just as it had from 1991 to 2014 with it was a, a neutral buffer state between russian in data. you know, buffer stays, protect both sides of russian would be protected against data regression data would be protected against russian aggression. and, you know, we, the ukraine would not have lost 30 percent of its,

of its population as it has to. and today, you know, on today the, the one group of people that are missing and this good question are the ukranian people. we do know that for well over a year now i'm more than, yeah, well over a year now, public opinion polls and ukraine, and i'm sure it's not the freest environment to do public opinion polls, but a majority of people want a settlement. ok, again, a man that is no longer legally the president of your country is making decisions and that's even against the will of his own people. the yeah, of course the here, the premiums are not be heard at all. because the west is the basic closing down your brakes and losing out anything on the screen. so called democracy because the board project close, the people will flood the countries, but the price of the country are the people who love the army. brain cannot lead because they don't want the money or afraid to leave the country because the borders was going to get shot. and they, nobody's human, the, nobody's even the people who are abroad transport in europe,

we're in russia. there's millions of ukrainians and russia are who are and i mean heard of that. yeah. very easy for you are being basically put to the ground and nobody's talking about them. i just spoke to a couple of girls last week from some boston journal and they're like, oh, we hate tough proposal because he wants to watch those. so. oh, so what the situation the rest is i'm talking about with the russian federation. but other things i was wanting to talk about the real situation, proper cost and talking to the restriction of russia and talking to me talking to france while you're not talking and show the situation how the brands are being sold as a dog to the fact why don't not be question. what do they want? the real piece be free, the one kind of piece, the, that there is they're going to be controlled by the russia yet because the rush left russia, that's what they were faced with just one piece of horseback. and we just want a customer to be developing back again. that's what they want. but the west is know that this was the rise of the didn't want to even talk about it because they are

afraid of the truth because of the truth from top of the whole western. so called the all the way the payment a what the i'm, i'm under a real, i'm literally glad you brought it up. i mean, a well over a 1000000, the thing is 1300000 ukrainians can came to russia after the, as i most started. okay. i have never heard that in history where the so called aggressor, except uh, uh, people playing for a bit apparently uh, fleeing to the people that are pressing them. but it's never mentioned in western media and i'm really glad that you brought it up. all right folks, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue on discussion on your friends and say without me, of course the game is a display. yes, we shouldn't have that us do i? yes or 2 hands go. bush just simple boys names i left. i'm with many of us that

will extend it. you live at this point and it goes to a spectrum. your company was told that you live in the, which is anything you could with business name or gentleman's. the oil and well associates of gave me is a couple of really features into the a new digital video. which means immediately either the what the course or not. ok, so look, let me, what do i suggest? one way useful. let me go by the end of what sort of summer available. cuz i'm gonna see was more snow and you're the welcome back. across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter will about to remind you we're discussing your cream,

the ok. let's go back to karen it. okay we, i think we've kind of laid out the groundwork here about how to move forward. but as i said in my introduction, this is going to be very, very hard because to this, even with all the expressions of goodwill and wanting to get this done. finally, i have to take a step back and, you know, look at our terms and conditions of engagement here in a still here in the one the among people that want this conflict and that keep using the word ceasefire. that's not what the russians want. ok, trump wants an end to the conflict. well, i want the end of the conflict, but for the conflict, the end, the security issues that russia has have to be addressed. it's just not going to be a ceasefire. it's not going to be november 11th, 1918. okay. that they even if it were that case, that it would be easy, but russia is not going to accept that. that's not going to accept a ceasefire. karen?

yeah, no, that's, that is true. and i think got a lot of what's going on now with the long meetings and, and even the hectic schedule is i think the trump administration is, has been, i think we know we can accept that they've been very ill informed about the situation in ukraine. he knows, i think trump the trump, people understand europe a little bit better, which is why vance was so you really aiming towards them when his meeting recently says, but the trump, people don't understand the bottom line situation, they don't have a clear sense. i don't believe yet, of the cars that russia holds militarily on a battlefield, in terms of the economy in terms of their messaging, which is russians. messaging has been so remarkably consistent from day one on this whole thing, but miracles and certainly trump wasn't paying much attention to that. so his people with cost is not an expert on ukraine. he's

a deal maker real estate guy. so they are trying, i believe, to understand the ground rules and, and certainly trumps all about momentum. yeah, but i think they're learning, they're taking the time to learn and listen. and also trump has other has other priorities beyond ukraine. i think in very much he sees ukraine as a problem, russia, if he wants to be friends with europe, he wants to continue to you mentally and exploit unfortunately, which is, i'm not afraid of nato, so i don't mind that. but for, for, for europeans, this is a bad time for them and that's a totally different issue than been killing ukrainians, which is something our us congress has been doing enthusiast equally well. i, i wish i could have a share your sense. but when it comes to your view, your opinions are getting what they deserve. okay? they need a mass of wake up call. all right. and well, for, i'm not a fan of nato. anyone that watches program knows that. but i have to say care in that i am i gleefully watch the europeans destroy nato. not trump. it's the

europeans that are doing it. okay. you know, when, when you're, when you're adversaries or an associate or a firing squad, don't get it. don't get in the way. okay. but that would, that'll be another topic for another program. david, do you worry that we, we may have, uh, our expectations may be too high? yes, a little bit. yeah, i think there is, there is a chance that uh, you know, the neo cards and the truck ministration might overestimate you craig's position of us position as, as karen mentioned, you know, rush, it has been winning this war comprehensively. they inflicted probably 1100000, the printing military casualties have the costs of maybe 250000 russians of which are only 100008 big deal. so, um, you know, russia has an extreme advantage $5.00 to $1.00 on a numerical advantage on most areas of the eastern front. and you know,

it's important that, you know, i think the biggest area of dispute in any final piece agreement is going to be the boss was ation deep writing and military, you know, kellog statements. where does that rate us? you know, we're going to build up the euphrates military modernize that up after the war after a peace deal. and that's completely unacceptable to russia. you know, it has to be one or 2000. you creating a triple a matrices was indeed a simple agreement on the russian side. uh, maybe we can increase the size of the, of the board regard forces that are, would be non military. and if you cited conditions and we have to see the militarization of the, the for bloss. uh, you know, i think maybe uh, that's one area that i, i hope that russia can concede to, to make peace a little the line of control. but i, you know, i think trump does understand russia, he does have strategic empathy for rational. he understands me a clear statement that you know, us would never accept, you know, within the country a lot are borders. so i,

i'm incredibly helpful of what i see. i think overall the truck ministration is doing an excellent job. and if that causes futures with our client space and data, i'm fine with that. well, you know that i, again, you know, it's so much is being talked about ukraine, but what do you crate in spring 10, ukraine? i mean, use, it looks like they do, you know, it least the current leadership or people in power and ukraine. they want to move towards a european union membership. um, uh, and that's up to the ukranian people. but i mean, did they do the, after all this is happened? do you think you crane can trust europe? i don't think you find it and that's us. anybody have right now at all in this situation, the pre solitaire is already have 2014 the promises of the so called world geography union and to start from trips to deanna and having talking to unit by

pershing co are now in the blood shit. and he prayed, don't you finance understand, but they need to be just be where they are. it was that you left the whole, this is what the trumpet and restrictions thermostat and the western world brain has to do that. so that's completely want space is to start acting on it and start getting all the us into groups. either we pray, there's more than 60 of them in ukraine was propriety ukrainian for, for front of the train load, sorry for the sofa assault. and that's the battalion groups for blood pressure. and then when i start the system them today. so they have to do that. do they actually recreate at all? was the different sovereign habit to pull out? of course they do pray. she said that's i shall at least be great of all where to handle that situation. what brought for activities, those going to anything i say to the roger because the war will start by the way. when you print into the source of your is the future of refrain, i think is not an option. you phrase up, but i the, but i think not only on today,

but i think the ukraine may have a future if the us a id would get out of ukraine and stop meddling. i mean, you know, you tell you it's hard on the turn on bbc and, and how does here, and they have this, you know, human rights lawyer. okay. that speaks pretty good. english. she's blonde, she's pretty oh, she's on the payroll of us. a id where you're not getting the opinion from ukrainians, you're getting it from the, the, the foreign policy blog and the west that actually is against the trump administration, as we speak. okay. that's part of the route problem for ukraine. is it a we get a very distorted picture of what people think? and needless to say, that junk that you can see on tele graham, karen, we, we're talking before the program started. um, 4 and a half hours was the length of the 1st meeting and in riyadh and i'm, i'm pretty much bedding and you agreed with me. and i'd like to explain to our viewers that, that part a good part of that conversation. if not all of it actually was about us russia relations. why didn't you, why were you agreeing with me?

go ahead. well, i mean we've had this incredible of unbelievable gap in our us rest your relations with by and of course buying was not a, a confident, a leader of our country in terms of speaking to his fellow leaders. we know that, but there was also the, a very aggressive anti russian view throughout the button, a government throughout the democratic party. and unfortunately, throughout the republican parties, you had bipartisan anti russian is um, uh, russ or phobia, institutionalized, for really over 4 years. so trump, uh uh, and of course trump was personally affected by this is his, uh, 1st impeachment related to that. and um, and i actually the landscapes people's lives. he's government, this is why is the landscape should be very nervous. you know, trump has some good features, but he also is the one who holds a grudge. he remembers people who have betrayed him. this is as loyal ideas,

very important to him, and it's part of his success. and he does not trust zalinski. it also, um, pers, on a personal level, so this is a, all of this has to be fixed, but yes, the rest of the thing is most important. um also trump understands uh, you know, with his greenland down, but you know, he understands raw materials. he has his own strategic location. he doesn't, this may be from a real estate perspective, maybe as an american, uh, imperialist, if you want to call it that. but he understands that. and so russia accounts you talk to russia, you negotiate with russia, you under make sure there is an understanding with russia, ukraine, unfortunately for trump, for personal reasons, and political we is, is a historical reasons. it does not count for him. so these, these early talks are definitely about the bilateral relationship, which is, which is good because we have to do that before we can find out what's, what the ukranian people deserve, which is peace. yeah, no doubt it, it's a neutral piece. it is a piece that doesn't threaten anyone,

a piece that is profitable, you know, in fact, you know, we, we know pieces profitable. it really is where we talk about how much money you can leave. only a few people make money for more peace. everyone becomes wealthy in a peaceful fit, and by and you know, care, you know, care, and after all of the bloodshed and all of the violence, there is the, the, there is no hatred of ukrainians, and russia russians don't hate ukrainians. okay. you're with a u. s. a, i need help ukranian spread, russo phobia around the world. but after everything that's been the last is on both sides, they're still not animosity towards ukraine and ukrainian people against people like zelinski. well, obviously that's different. david, you know, one of the things i, you know, going back to 2014, the origins of this conflict. everybody, not 2020 to 2014. you know, russia in the united states don't necessarily have to be friends, but they should not be enemies. i think that's more to now than ever before. go

ahead david. or? yeah, i think you're exactly right. so the and that's, that's the greatness of president trump is in a single day, he essentially transformed russia from an adversary to arrival in a competitor, rape our competitor, versus anatomy. and that's something we didn't see and divide the restriction in, in the whole key to us security is to as to neutralize the site of russian. why is the way you do that? is you be, is to be, have friendly relations with both moscow and vision. and to, you know, increase investments and ties with the, with russia, with india, to end this, you know, talk about a new security architecture in europe. that includes russia with indivisible security. that benefits all provide security to all of us as somebody that russia has been been, uh, you know, advocates such that is the soviet union, the 1989. well it, it could be and you know, all of you. i mean, historically,

um you know, you all to is up a trail. i'll take you on the altar 2 point oh and a new york minute. if it brings peace, all right, that's all the time we have fascinating discussion. i want to thank my guessing basil. mount jackson and, and salt lake city. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here . are key to you next time and remember prospect the

the, the, the headlights are allowed to use the national water difference. a single day makes us delegation, leading saudi arabia off the 1st high level, told, with russia in years, ultimately paving the way to rebuild by that there will ties with side set on ending the conflict. a new crank, diplomacy ultimately is based on actions based on commitments that are kept. the conversation was very useful. we not only listen, but also heard each other. and i have reason to believe that the american side has begun to better understand our position. but today i heard, oh, we weren't invited. will you been there for 3 years? you should have ended in 3 years. you should have never started it. you could have made a deal. i think as