think much and i think that she's very honest about having these discussions to end to award there to have a true peace. what the role of executive in union would be, or that that is to be seen. while we very much appreciate you coming on to the program and giving us your time, this one that was name, that is chris and but that's a full of quick and busta. thank you very much. have a wonderful evening. thank you very much. i as well not we all going to do it, but they have got lots of lined up to you in the next hour. so i'll, we'll see you in about 2 minutes. the

hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter level. now the hard part starts russia in the united states, the greeks, the bloodletting and new cream must come to an end. but getting there is hard, very hard. there is so little trust and the europeans who want the conflict to continue will do everything they can to prevent peace, the cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, caring fields kosky in mount jackson. she's a retired air force, lieutenant colonel, having served at both n s a and the office of secretary of defense in salt lake city. we have david pine . he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security. and in basil we crossed the on break the lease and coach. he is

a former ukrainian diplomat. all right, cross talk rules and effects. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciated. karen, let me go to you 1st and mount jackson. so many things are happening. it's hard even for us, that are new z people to keep up with it. but i'd like to start with a very broad brush question to you over the last, particularly last week or so. it seems to me that the post world war 2, security and importantly, cultural consensus in the west is falling apart. is that a fair characterization? it's either falling apart or the narrative about it is falling apart. one of the 2 things is happening. reality is starting to emerge. it's undeniable. it's been undeniable for the people that have been looking at this closely. but um, american politicians have not been they've been playing a game for a long time. certainly under the past 2 administrations, really. so what trump is trying to do, i think, is figure out what the truth is as

a starting point. yes, very interesting because david, a lot of people were very, very critical of pegs that the secretary of defense when he came out and said, would be administration's approach. i know nato for ukraine, no us troops. ukraine is going to have to accept the territorial losses. and just as good, karen just said, i mean that these are facts, these are, these are, these are not creating political facts. these are hard realities and he was criticized for it. but i think that's exactly the approach that has to be taken. because from that point from starting from there, then you can still deal with problems with both sides legitimately can raise. go ahead david or yeah, it's very refreshing to see the tops of drop in ministration officials talking a realistic way. i mean, everyone knows that the, that's, that's going to be the end, the end of piece agree, but there is no peace possible unless you know a peace deal. is it

a minimal acceptable to the russian federation? and so, you know, i think the truck ministration is, is going about in a good way. i don't think he gave up any leverage at all by making those statements . because moscow, it was the criminal, it has made clear that there has to be some kind of an agreed upon piece framework . i'm that, that, uh, you know, include some of their key elements of, of a piece deal, or that in order for there to be a ceasefire. so i think i, p, dss statements have moved us halfway there. that's a good point here. um, but i also um, who gets a seat at the table here as a, as a farmer, ukrainian diplomat. i would posit the following. you're obviously have the right to disagree with me. but zalinski gave away ukraine sovereignty, so it had it with the country with no sovereignty. it doesn't have a seat at the table, but that was a craven choice on the part of zalinski in his clique around him,

which of course he did. he followed orders from washington in london and brussels. so too bad you gave away yours for it to be and he's not even like a legitimately legally the, the president of ukraine. so forfeiture. that's what to what did someone tell me a recent play. you play stupid games and you get stupid prizes. go ahead. andre. i would agree on this unfortunately, for my country. so i don't see. and the former government printing on a report shameful, has electric, right? and totally down in the loss of total sovereignty after the 2014, where i was in the government, when we saw all these, my probations by the united states embassy united states government on telling ukraine government what to do, who do i always go to the fire and who to high and how to get ready, the monthly and how to do the works and the government. basically we were a total on solver and country. and today, crazy has lost it. at the end of all of what, what was ready has happened was all the comic support,

the west suspension off the thing that solves like an honestly, at this point, the wednesday not only is, is not a legitimate president. he is not able to speak for the country itself. the country is looking for for change. the brain, france will, you will are, for, along with all these propaganda. do not watch the last you there. so he does not represent the country. you cannot be presented, you pay all the tech stocks. so what is the question? who is here? who represents the frame to the future elections, making the change because any of those is going to be elected, argue there's all position a crazy that was destroyed by the west. and why? because there was support democracy, pray x. so there's nobody to choose from. so what is the answer tells you praise your representative properly here, you have some candidates in the pony which is legitimate and can be part of the negotiations, but they can be only part of the rush and we've actually to agree upon a deal that will be represent a metal frame,

but such as europe itself because there are also a lot and sovereignty to the situation. so this friction with, basically the way it's always been on the computer to me or, well, you know, again as, as seats of the table. karen, the europeans obviously are furious, but they're not given a seat. but why should they be given a seat? they have, they were entrust, did with the men's process. they were failures. not only were they failures, they lied. okay. they lied to the public. they lied to the russians. they lied. unfortunately, most of all to the people of the don bask, so they forfeited there was a seat at the table. and why in the world with zelinski in the you be given to see that they don't want a piece, they want more? why should they be able to say a peace conference? go ahead. yeah, they should not be, they should not be. and i think um, you know, the, the ingredients, most of the admitted lives that germany and others who weren't supposed to be the guarantors of the makes agreements. they publicly admitted some years later,

after rowers were people in suspected. this was the case, but they probably embraced it as if it was a positive as it lying. and, and lying about your commitments to piece even years ago in 2014. was that that was okay. that was okay. they were justified in doing that. so it is right for anyone who wants peace in europe. and anyone who wants peace anywhere to have nothing but contempt for most of the european leaders. and they have not earned the right to suit it. it's not only that they don't want it, they don't want peace. clearly they are dependent on this continued conflict. but they don't deserve a seat at the table and they cannot be trusted, those individuals and those who are supporting the ones who, who lied about their guarantor function. and so we just want to strengthen your credit for more. more anyone align with those people should, is automatically disqualify ends. the lensky chose a very poorly with the friends that you would surround himself with. well,

they've all the more so, david, i mean, we did have a weeks after the conflict started in 2022. we had the stem bull process again, zalinski forfeited his country's fortunes. okay. why would you trust someone like that to be around a negotiating table? i mean, he chose for himself and is, is a clique around him and is western friends. he chose badly for his own people. david, a wrestling right? you created a you don't, they don't to service a seat at the table because they've, they've refused to sit at the table. i couldn't, has been sitting alone at the table waiting for, you know, the us and ukraine and i guess you to, to join them in the conflict in, in uh you know, dado leaders vitamin and you creative. not allowed a lot rush it in the conflict with the negotiated disagreement. um so, um, you know, that's been, that's been 3 years. the a simple agreement was i think it would have been

a victory for everyone. it would have been a win win win for russia. it would have been a, went for ukraine. you know, russia would have withdrawn from most as 8 of los ukraine could have had a 93 percent of its internationally recognized territory. and of course, russia likely would have been next the people's republic, so that i don't ask in lieu, hence, but that would have been the end of the ukraine would have been neutral. it would have been a peace and it would have been a had true security just as it had from 1991 to 2014 with it was a, a neutral buffer state between russian in data. you know, buffer states protect both sides of a rush, it would be projected to get some data. regression data would be protected against russian regression and you know, we, there, you probably would not have lost 30 percent of its, of his population. is that how so in today, you know, on today the, the one group of people that are missing and this good question are the ukranian people. we do know that for well over a year now and more than yeah, well over

a year now, public opinion polls and ukraine, and i'm sure it's not the freest environment to do public opinion polls. but a majority of people want a settlement. ok, again, a man that is no longer legally the president of your country is making decisions and that's even against the will of his own people. the yeah, of course the here, the premiums are not be good at all. because the west is the basic closing down, your brakes then losing out anything on the screen. so called democracy because the board is that close. the people will flood the country, but it's a price is the country are the people who love the army brain cannot lead because they don't want the money or afraid to leave the country because the borders was going to get shot. and they, nobody's human. the nobody's even the people who are abroad transport in europe. we're in russia. there's millions of ukrainians and russia are who are and i mean heard of that. yeah. very easy for you are being basically put to the ground and

nobody's talking about them. i just spoke to a couple of girls last week from some boston journal and they're like, oh, we hate tough proposal because he was the russian of so, oh, so what is the situation the lessons i'm talking about with the russian federation . but other things i was wanting to talk about, the real situation is tucker, cos. i'm talking to the restriction of russia and talking to put me talking to france while you're not talking and show the situation how the brands are being sold as a dog to the fact. why don't not be the question. what do they want? the real piece be free, the one kind of piece, the death, or is it going to be controlled by the russia in the rush left russia? that's what people say. we just want peace, go horseback, and we just want to be developing back again. that's what they want, but the west is know that this is the life of the didn't even talk about it because they are afraid of the terms because it comes out of the whole western so called deep all the way the payment a what the i'm, i'm under a real, i'm literally glad you brought it up. i mean, a well over a 1000000,

the thing is 1300000 ukrainians came to russia after the as i most started. okay. i've never heard that in history where the so called aggressor, except uh, uh, people playing for a bit apparently uh, fleeing to the people that are pressing them, that it's never mentioned in western media. and i'm really glad that you brought it up. all right folks, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue on discussion on your price and say with our team, the many of us again, is the solution. if multiple scope of data that us boy, yes or $200.00 say, well, bush, just the simple boys names, i left them with me and so it looks to me that you live at this point and it goes

to a spectrum, a couple things. so those are what are you that you live in, the do what just anything you could with business name or general store. and let's, let's say it's of game is a couple of really features interesting that my web i need you to play video for somebody that immediately either of them or what the course or not. ok. so look at the new address, whichever way you store or do you have a good summer available because of the see was more snow and you have the welcome back across stock. were all things are considered computer la belle, to remind you were discussing you cream, the

ok, let's go back to karen. okay, we, i think we've kind of laid out the groundwork here about how to move forward. but as i said in my introduction, this is going to be very, very hard because to this, even with all the expressions of goodwill and wanting to get this done. finally, i have to take a step back and, you know, look at our terms and conditions of engagement here is still here in the one the among people that want this conflict, the end, the keep using the word ceasefire. that's not what the russians want. ok, trump wants an end to the conflict. well, i want the end of the complex, but for the conflict, the end, the security issues that russia has have to be addressed. it's just about going to be a cease fire. it's not going to be november 11th, 1918. okay. that if they, even if it were that case, that it would be easy. but russia is not going to accept that. that's not going to

accept a ceasefire. karen? yeah, no, that's, that is true. and i think got a lot of what's going on now with a long meetings and, and even the hectic schedule is, i think the trump administration is, has been, i think we know we can accept that they've been very ill informed about the situation and ukraine. he knows, i think trump the trump, people understand europe a little bit better, which is why vance was so you may leading towards them when he's meeting recently. but the trump people, they don't understand the bottom line situation. they don't have a clear sense. i don't believe yet, of the cars that russia holds militarily on a battlefield, in terms of the economy in terms of their messaging, which is russia's messaging has been so remarkably consistent from day one on this whole thing, but miracles and certainly trump wasn't paying much attention to that, so his people with cost is not an expert on ukraine. he's a deal maker real estate guy. so they are trying, i believe,

to understand the ground rules and, and certainly trumps all about momentum. yeah, but i think they're learning, they're taking the time to learn and listen. and also trump has other has other priorities beyond ukraine. i think in very much he sees ukraine as a problem. russia, if he wants to be friends with europe, he wants to continue to you mentally and exploit unfortunately, which is i'm not a fan of nato, so i don't mind that. but for, for, for europeans, this is a bad time for them. and that's a totally different issue than, than killing ukrainians, which is something our us congress has been doing enthusiastically. well i, i wish i could have a share your sense. but when it comes to europe, the europeans are getting what they deserve. okay. they need a mass of wake up call. all right. and well, for, i'm not a fan of nato, anyone that watches program knows that, but i have to say care in that i am i gleefully watch the europeans destroy nato. not trump. it's the europeans that are doing it. okay. you know, when, when you're,

when you're adversaries or an associate or a firing squad, don't get it, don't get in the way. okay. but that would, that'll be another topic for another program. david, do you worry that we, we may have, uh, our expectations may be too high a little bit. yeah, i think there is, there is a chance that you know, the neo cons and the truck ministration might overestimate. you craze. position of us position is karen mentioned in a rush. it has been winning this war comprehensively. they inflicted probably 1100000, the printing military casualties have the costs of maybe 250000 russians of which only 100000 have been killed. so, you know, russia has an extreme advantage, $5.00 to $1.00 numerical advantage on most areas of the eastern front. and you know,

it's important that, you know, i think the biggest area of dispute in any final piece agreement is going to be the boss was ation of deep rated military. you know, kellogg statements where does the radio. so, you know, we're going to build up the euphrates military and modernize that after the war after a peace deal. and that's completely unacceptable to russia. you know, it has to be one or 2000. you creating a triple in mattresses. was indeed a symbol agreement on the russian side. uh, maybe we can increase the size of, of the bar regard forces that are with the non village area. and if you cite conditions and we have to see the militarization of the, the for bloss. uh, you know, i think maybe that's one area that i, i hope that russia can concede to, to make peace, a little the line of control. but i, you know, i think trump does understand russia. he does have strategic empathy for russia. university is made clear statement that you know, us would never accept, you know, within the country a lot are borders. so i,

i'm incredibly helpful of what i see. i think overall the truck ministration is doing an excellent job. and if that causes futures with our or client states and data, i'm fine with that. well, you know that i, again, you know, it's so much is being talked about ukraine, but what do you crate in spring 10 ukraine? i mean, didn't use, it looks like that, you know, it least the current leadership or people in power and ukraine. they want to move towards a european union membership. um, uh, and that's up to the ukranian people. but, i mean, did they do the, after all this is happened? do you think you crane can trust europe? i don't think the price, and that's us. anybody have right now at all in this situation, the pre solitaire is already have 2014. the promises of the so followed the world geography union and to start from trips to deanna and having talking to unit by

pershing co are now in the blood shit. and he prayed, don't you, france understand? but they need to be just be where they are. it was that you have to hello, this is what the trumpet and restrictions thermostat and the western world grain has to do that. so that's completely want space is to start acting on it and start getting all the us into groups, out of refrain. there's more than 60 of them in ukraine was proclaimed the premium for, for front of the train load, sorry for the sofa as old, and that's the battalion groups or the pressure. and then i start the system them today. so they have to do that, who they actually recreate at all. was the different sovereign public, the fanatic for stadium pray. she said it's, i shall at least be great of all where to handle that situation. what brought for activities? the next agent will rush here because the war will start by the way. when you print into the source of your is the future of refrain, i think is not an option. you frame up, but i shouldn't,

but i think not only on today, but i think the ukraine may have a future if the us a id would get out of ukraine and stop meddling. i mean, you know, you tell you it's hard on the turn on bbc and, and how does here, and they have this, you know, human rights lawyer. okay. that speaks pretty good. english. she's blonde, she's pretty oh, she's on the payroll of us. a id where you're not getting the opinion from ukrainians, you're getting it from the, the, the foreign policy blog and the west that actually is against the trump administration, as we speak. okay. that's part of the route problem for ukraine. is it a we get a very distorted picture of what people think? and needless to say that jones, that you can see on telegram. karen, we, we're talking before the program started um 4 and a half hours, but that was the length of the 1st meeting and in riyadh and i'm, i'm pretty much bedding and you agreed with me. and i'd like to explain to our viewers that, that part, a good part of that conversation. if not all of it actually was about us russia

relations. why didn't you, why were you agreeing with me? go ahead. well, i mean we've had this incredible of unbelievable gap in our us rest your relations with by and of course buying was not a, a confident, a leader of our country in terms of speaking to his fellow leaders. we know that, but there was also the, a very aggressive anti russian view throughout the vitamin a government throughout the democratic party. and unfortunately, throughout the republican parties, you had bipartisan anti russian is um, uh, russ of phobia, institutionalized, for really over 4 years. so trump, uh uh, and of course trump was personally affected by this is his, uh, 1st impeachment related to that. and um, and i actually, the last case people is, once he's government, this is why is the landscape should be very nervous. you know, trump has some good features, but he also is the one who holds a grudge. he remembers people who have betrayed him. this is as loyal ideas very

important to him. and um is part of his success and he does not trust zelinski at all. so pers, on a personal level, so this is a all of this has to be fixed, but yes, the rest of the thing is most important. um also trump understands uh, you know, with his greenland down, but you know, he understands raw materials. he understand strategic locations, he doesn't, this may be from a real estate perspective, maybe as an american, uh, imperialist, if you want to call it that. but he understands that. and so russia accounts you talk to russia, you negotiate with russia, you under make sure there is an understanding with russia, ukraine, unfortunately for trump, for personal reasons, and political we is, is a historical reasons. it does not count for him. so these, these early talks are definitely about the bilateral relationship, which is, which is good because we have to do that before we can find out what's, what the ukranian people deserve. which is piece. yeah, no data, it's a neutral piece. it is a piece that doesn't threaten anyone,

a piece that is profitable, you know, in fact, you know, we, we know pieces profitable. it really is where we talk about how much money you can leave. only a few people make money for more peace. everyone becomes wealthy in a peaceful fit, and by and you know, care, you know, care, and after all of the bloodshed and all of the violence, there is the, the, there is no hatred of ukrainians, and russia russians don't hate ukrainians. okay. you're with a u. s. a id helped ukrainian spread, russo phobia around the world. but after everything that's been the last is on both sides, they're still not animosity towards ukraine and ukrainian people against people like zelinski. well, obviously that's different. david, you know, one of the things i, you know, going back to 2014, the origins of this conflict. everybody, not 2020 to 2014. you know, russia in the united states don't necessarily have to be friends, but they should not be enemies. i think that's more to now than ever before. go

ahead david. or. yeah, i think you're, you're exactly right of the and that's, that's the greatness of president trump. is it in a single day, he essentially transformed russia from an adversary to arrival in a competitor re power competitor versus an anatomy. and that's something we didn't see and, and divided restriction in, in the whole key to us security is to as to neutralize the side of russian. why is it the way you do that is you be, is to be, have friendly relations with both boss scale and vision and to, you know, increase investments and size uh, with the, with russia, with india to end this, you know, talk about a new security architecture in europe and includes russia with indivisible security . the benefits all provide security to all this is somebody that russia has been been, uh, you know, advocating such that is the soviet union, the 1989. well, it, it could be, and you know, all of you. i mean, historically, um, you know,

you all to is up a trail. i'll take you on the altar 2 point oh, in a new york minute. if it brings peace, all right, that's all the time. we have a fascinating discussion. i want to thank my guessing basil, mount jackson and, and salt lake city. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here . archie. so you next time and remember across the the

force it near wash. lots of stuff is a lot to lay out of the heat at the fortune of us. and that suddenness portions here goes away with the result of the story and pushing a or studio to see more option that this be so for ship though, for storage critics will go straight and you won't have to worry the was today. he's going to your welski territory, savings casias the natural logos of it. so when we ship portion, or the whole day or before you may think about a football i still knew about chavo in gold and on my side as close as you was, i got the doors boat off that ocean. i continued to go out and died in billing. now, probably not sure of the southeast which don't see about so those sort of the south pole. so comfortable people are both in discovery. smith gosh, can't foolish boys coming out on the bus which is still going on to me. so i'm on

the policy. i'm kind of august the going in goes to the i'll go back to normal. yeah, i get to talk about it. there's dorski a whole bunch, but wanted to circle comfortable the some about on there. not. i mean, yeah, the desktop i do have both come similar to stuff. some of the the, the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the i would be happy to meet with donald trump. we haven't seen each other in a long time in those previous 4 years when he was president, we met and discussed the relations between our countries. a moment for the history but not imperative. tease is a meeting with donald trump to told business an event to the ukraine context, but adds that the tubs of a piece still have to pay its festival to, to talk from poolside to company, and 21 $1000000.00 for road, or turn out in india why we're given $21000000.00 in the trunk team keeps on