and close a home, a large file that has broken outside the industry. so you just compute decides in solving moscow fake smoke has been rising from the side into the night sky of the russian capital. a more than a 175 fighters and 40 vehicles, including of helicopter have been working to put out the blaze. and that's according to the russian emergency is ministry, such as people have been evacuated to safety. i will certainly bring you more updates from that as the on. so i still with our team to national for all the latest from around the world. thanks for watching and by now the the

hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter level. now the hard part starts russia in the united states, the greeks, the blood living and ukraine must come to an end. but getting there is hard, very hard. there is so little trust and the europeans who want the complex to continue will do everything they can to prevent piece, the cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess. can fields kosky in mount jackson. she is a retired air force. lieutenant colonel, having served at both n s a and the office of secretary of defense in salt lake city. we have david pine . he is deputy director of national operations for the task force on national and homeland security. and in basil we cross the andre w franco. he is a former ukrainian diplomat. all right, cross stock roll is in effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always so appreciate it. uh, karen, let me go to you 1st and mount jackson,

so many things are happening. it's hard even for us, that are new z people to keep up with it. but i'd like to start with a very broad brush question to you over the last, particularly last week or so. it seems to me that the post world war 2, security and importantly, cultural consensus in the west is falling apart. is that a fair characterization? it's either falling apart or the narrative about it is falling apart. one of the 2 things is happening. the reality is starting to emerge. it's undeniable. it's been a denial for the people that have been looking at this closely. but um, american politicians have not been they've been playing a game for a long time. certainly under the past 2 administrations, really. so what trump is trying to do, i think, is figure out what the truth is as a starting point. yeah, it's very interesting because david, a lot of people were very,

very critical of pegs that the secretary of defense when he came out and said, would be administration's approach. no nato, for ukraine, no us troops. ukraine is going to have to accept the territorial losses. and just as good, karen just said, i mean that these are facts, these are, these are, these are not creating political facts. these are hard realities and he was criticized for it. but i think that's exactly the approach that has to be taken. because from that point from starting from there, then you can still deal with problems with both sides legitimately can raise. go ahead david. yeah, it's very refreshing. it does the tops of drop administration officials talking a realistic way. i mean, everyone knows that the, that's, that's going to be the, in the end of disagree, but there is no peace possible and less, you know, a peace deal. is it a minimal acceptable to the russian federation? and so, you know, i think the truck ministration is, is going about in

a good way. i don't think he gave up any leverage at all by making those statements . because moscow was a criminal, it has made clear that there has to be some kind of an agreed upon piece framework . i'm that, that, uh, you know, include some of their key elements of, of a piece deal. ok, in order for there to be a ceasefire. so i think i of pj, accessed statements have moved us halfway there. that's a good point you on that. i also who gets a seat at the table here as a, as a farmer, ukrainian diplomat. i would posit the following. you're obviously have the right to disagree with me, but zalinski gave away ukraine sovereignty, so it had it with the country with no sovereignty. it doesn't have a seat at the table, but that was a craven choice on the part of zalinski and his clique around him. which of course he did, he followed orders from washington in london and brussel. so too bad you gave away your store i tv be and he's not even live a legitimately legally the,

the president of ukraine. so forfeiture, that's what to what did someone tell me a recent play? you play stupid games and you get stupid prizes. go ahead. andre, i would agree on this. unfortunately for my country, so mc and the former government printing on a report shameful. has electric brand totally on the loss of total sovereignty after the 2014, where i was in the government, when we saw all these, my probations by the united states embassy united states government on telling ukraine, go on what to do, who to appoint, who to fire and who to hire and how to get ready, the monthly and how to do the works and the government. basically we weren't a total on sovereign country and today, great has lost it. at the end of all, what it was really has happened was all they come out and support the west of making up the state and solve it can obviously at this point, the wednesday not only is, is not

a legitimate president. he is not able to speak for the country itself. the country is looking for for change. the brain, france will, you will are, for, along with all this propaganda. do not want the last you there. so he does not represent the country. you cannot represent, you pay all the text talks. so what is the question? who is here? who represents the frame to the future elections, making the change because any of those is going to be elected are the, there's all positioning crazy. that was this point by the west and why? because there was support democracy, pray x. so there's nobody to choose from. so what is the answer chatting the pricing representative properly here? you have some candidates in the pony which is legitimate to be part of the negotiations, but they can be only part of the rush and we've actually to agree upon a deal that will be represent the metal frame. but what does europe itself? because there are also lost in sovereignty, the situation, the expression where basically the way it's always been on the computer to me or,

well, you know, again this is as seats at the table. karen, the europeans obviously are furious, but they're not given a seat. but why should they be given a seat? they have, they were entrust in wisdom, men's process. they were failures. not only were they failures, they lied. okay. they lied to the public. they lied to the russians. they lied. unfortunately, most of all to the people of the don bass, so they forfeited there was a seat at the table. and why in the world with zelinski in the you be given to see that they don't want a piece, they want more? why should they be able to say a peace conference? go ahead. yeah, they should not be, they should not be. and i think um, you know, the, the ingredients and as of the admitted lives that germany and, and others who weren't supposed to be the guarantors of the makes agreements. they publicly admitted some years later after rumors were people and suspected this was the case, but they probably embraced it as if it was a positive as it lying. and,

and lying about your commitments to piece even years ago in 2014 was that that was okay. that was okay, they were justified in doing that. so it is right for anyone who wants peace in europe. anyone who wants peace anywhere. they have nothing but contempt for most of the european leaders and they have not earned the right to suit it. it's not only that they don't want it, they don't want peace. clearly they are dependent on this continued conflict. but they don't deserve a seat at the table and they cannot be trusted, those individuals and those who are supporting the ones who, who lied about their guarantor function. and so we just want to strengthen ukraine for more, more. anyone align with those people should, is automatically disqualified ends. the lensky chose a very poorly with the friends that you would surround himself with. well, they all the more so david, i mean, we did have a weeks after the conflict started in 2022. we had the assembled process again,

zalinski forfeited his country's fortunes. okay. why would you trust someone like that to be around a negotiating table? i mean, he chose for himself and is, is a clique around him and is western friends. he chose badly for his own people. david, you're actually right. you created a, you don't, they don't the server a seat at the table because they've, they've refused to sit at the table. oh, goodness, been sitting alone at the table waiting for, you know, the us and you crane. and i guess you to, to join him in the conflict in, in uh you know, dado, leaders uh binding and you creative not allowed a lot, rush it in the conflict with a negotiated disagreement. um so, um, you know, that's been, that's been 3 years. the a simple agreement was, i think it would have been a victory for everyone. it would have been a win win win for russia. it would have been a, went for ukraine. you know, russia would have withdrawn from most as 8 of los ukraine could have had

a 93 percent of its internationally recognized territory of a horse. russia, likely one of the next the people's republic. oh, don't ask in lieu hands, but that would have been the end of it. you pray and would have been neutral. it would have been a piece and it would have been a had true security just as it had from 1991 to 2014, when it was a neutral buffer state between russian and data. you know, buffer states protect both sides of a rush, it would be projected to get its data. regression data would be protected against russian regression and you know, we, there, you probably would not have lost 30 percent of its, of us population as it has done today. you know, on today the, the one group of people that are missing in this group equation are the ukranian people. we do know that for well over a year now i'm more than, yeah, well, over a year now, public opinion polls and ukraine and, and i'm sure it's not the freest environment to do public opinion polls. but

a majority of people want a settlement. ok, again, a man that is no longer legally the president of your country is making decisions and that's even against the will of his own people. the yeah, of course the here, the premiums are not be good at all. because the west is the basic closing down your brakes and losing out anything on the screen. so called democracy because the board is that goes, the people will flood the countries, but it's the price of the country are the people who love the army. brain cannot lead because they don't want the money or afraid to leave the country because the border is what they're going to get shot. and they, nobody's human that. but what is even the people who are abroad transport in europe, we're in russia, there's millions of ukrainians and russia are who are and i mean heard of that. yeah. very easy for you are being basically put to the ground and nobody's talking about them. i just spoke to a couple of girls last week from some boston journal and they're like, oh, we hate tougher person because he was the russian. so, oh,

so what is the situation the rest is i'm talking about with the russian federation, but i don't think i was wanting to talk about the real situation tucker, cos. i'm talking to the restriction of russia and talking to put me talking to things while you're not talking and show the situation how the brands are being sold as a dog to the fact. why don't not be the question. what do they want? the real piece, the re, the one kind of piece, the death or is it going to be controlled by the russia? yeah, because it's in the rush left the rest of the states. we just one piece go horseback and we just want our country developing back together. that's what they want. but the west is not a central verizon because they don't even talk about it because they are afraid of the truth. because the truth comes out of the whole western so called the total weight payment and what the, i'm on the right, you real, i'm literally glad you brought it up. i mean, a well over a 1000000, the thing is 1300000 ukrainians came to russia after the as i most started. okay. i've never heard that in history where the so called aggressor, except uh, uh,

people playing for a bit apparently uh, fleeing to the people that are pressing them. but it's never mentioned in western media, and i'm really glad that you brought it up. all right folks, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue discussion on you christ say without the, [000:00:00;00] the 1918 the countries of the west won the final victory over the ottoman empire. the sultan's government capitulated to the inside and sign the humiliating armesis

upload road. great britain and france and a delay wanted not only to destroy the ottoman empire, but also to divide the prime orderly turkish lands among themselves. in 1919, their armies began to land on turkish territory. but the west decided to choose greeks as the main striking force. seeking to make others realize this aggressive plan. for an intervention, provo mass, indignation among the turkish peoples. the national liberation struggle was led by the experience of general mustafah come all of that, or in order to bear down the enemy, a bank on the mobilization of the nation. and the alliance with russia, which acted as a united front, with turkish patriot. at the end of august 1922, the territory may want a decisive victory over the invaders in the battle of doom living art. and within

a month liberated all asia minor from them, the impressive success of the circus army force the west to make concessions. in 1923, the loss on these treaty was signed. 31 of the 1st countries in asia manage to defeat the colonial empires and defend its independence. becoming an example for millions of via press on the planet. the is working for you which school combines elements of the follies after busing in the on the drama. what does it cost with make it gymnastics, and it is the facility midland visions we're going to find out just for sake to be the best of the best. the. the welcome back across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter will about to remind you we're discussing ukraine,

the . okay, let's go back to karen it. okay we, i think we've kind of laid out the groundwork here about how to move forward. but as i said in my introduction, this is going to be very, very hard because to this, even with all the expressions of goodwill and wanting to get this done. finally, i have to take a step back and, you know, look at our terms and conditions of engagement here is still here in the one among people that want this conflict and they keep using the word cease fire. that's not what the russians want. ok, trump wants an end to the conflict. well, i want the end of the complex, but for the conflict, the end, the security issues that russia has have to be addressed. it's just about going to be a ceasefire. it's not going to be november 11th,

1918. okay. that they even if it were that case, that it would be easy, but russia is not going to accept that. that's not going to accept a ceasefire. karen? yeah, no, that's, that is true. and i think got a lot of what's going on now with a long meetings and, and even the hectic schedule is, i think the trump administration is, has been, i think we know we can accept that they've been very ill informed about the situation and ukraine. he knows, i think trump the trump, people understand europe a little bit better, which is why vance was so you really aiming towards them when his meeting recently . but the trunk people don't understand the bottom line situation. they don't have a clear sense. i don't believe yet. of the cars that russia holds militarily on the battlefield, in terms of the economy in terms of their messaging, which is russia's messaging has been so remarkably consistent from day one on this whole thing, but miracles and certainly trump wasn't paying much attention to that. so his

people with cost is not an expert on ukraine. he's a deal maker real estate guy. so they are trying, i believe, to understand the ground rules and, and certainly trumps all about momentum. yeah, but i think they're learning, they're taking the time to learn and listen. and also trump has other has other priorities beyond ukraine. i think in very much he sees ukraine as a problem. russia, if he wants to be friends with europe, he wants to continue to you really 8 and exploit unfortunately, which is, um, i'm not a fan of nato, so i don't mind that. but for, for, for europeans, this is a bad time for them. and that's a totally different issue than been killing ukrainians, which is something our us congress has been doing enthusiast equally well i, i wish i could have a share your sense, but when it comes to your, your opinions or getting what they deserve. okay. they need a mass of wake up call. alright. and well for, i'm not a fan of nato. anyone that watches program knows that, but uh, i have to say care and that i am,

i gleefully watch the europeans destroy nato. not trump. it's the europeans that are doing it. okay. you know when the, when you're, when you're adversaries or an associate or a firing squad, don't get it, don't get in the way. okay. but that would, that'll be another topic for another program. david, do you worry that we, we may have, our expectations may be too high a little bit. yeah, i think there is, there is a chance that uh, you know, the neo cons and the truck ministration might overestimate. you craig's position of us position as, as karen mentioned, you know, rusher has been winning this war comprehensively. they inflicted probably 1100000, the printing military casualties have the costs of maybe 2 150000 russians of which only under a 1000 have been killed. so, you know, russia has an extreme advantage, $5.00 to $1.00 on

a numerical advantage on most areas of the eastern front. and you know, it's important that, you know, i think the biggest area of dispute in any final piece agreement is going to be going through his ation of deep writing and military, you know, kellogg statements. we're just the radius, you know, we're going to build up the euphrates military modernize that after the war after a peace deal. and that's completely unacceptable to russia. you know, it has to be one or to 1000. you creating a troop limit versus was in the rental agreement on the russian side. uh, maybe we can increase the size of the, of the board regard forces that are, would be non military. and if you cite conditions and we have to see the militarization of the, the for bloss. uh, you know, i think maybe that's one area that i, i hope that russia can concede to, to make peace a little the line of control. but i, you know, i think trump does understand russia, he does have strategic empathy for russia. he understands me clear statement that,

you know, us would never accept, you know, within the country a lot are borders. so i, i'm incredibly helpful of what i see. i think overall, the truck ministration is doing an excellent job. and if that causes futures with our or client states and nato, i'm fine with that. well, you know that i again, you know, it's so much is being talked about ukraine, but what do ukrainians think? 10 ukraine, i mean, didn't use, it looks like the, you know, at least the current leadership or people in power and ukraine. they want to move towards a european union membership. um, uh, and that's up to the ukranian people. but, i mean, do they do the, after all this has happened? do you think ukraine can trust europe? i don't think the price, and that's us. anybody have right now at all. in this situation. the pre solitaire is already have 2014 the promises of the so called world geography union. and then

we'll start from trips to here and having talking to unit by pershing co are now in the blood shit. and he prayed, don't you finance? understand that they need to be just be where they are. it was that you left hello . this is what the trumpet and restrictions thermostat and the western world grey. i stupid. i still completely want space. be nice to start acting on it and start getting all the us into groups. i refrain, there's more than 60 of them in ukraine. was for craig, ukrainian for, for front of the train. moultrie, for the sofa assault. and that's a battalion groups for blood pressure. and there were some extra stuff in them today, so they have to do that who they actually recreate at all. the different sovereign comfortable that of course they do pray. she felt official, at least the crate of all, were to the handle of the situation with pressure activities, the next agent to rush her because the whole war was started by the wife. but anyways, praying into the source of your is

a future free brain. i think is not an option. you phrase up, but i there, but i think for me on today, but i think the ukraine may have a future at the us a id would get out of ukraine and stop meddling. i mean, you know, you tell you it's hard on the turn on bbc and l does here and they have this, you know, human rights lawyer. okay. that speaks pretty good english, he's blonde, she's pretty oh, she's on the payroll of us. a id where you're not getting the opinion from ukrainians. you're getting it from the the, the foreign policy blog and the west that actually is against the trump administration. as we speak, okay, that's part of the route problem for ukraine. is it a we get a very distorted picture of what people think. and needless to say that jones that you can see on telegram. karen, we, we're talking before the program started. um 4 and a half hours, but that was the length of the 1st meeting and in riyadh and i'm, i'm pretty much bedding and you agreed with me. and i'd like to explain to our

viewers that, that part, a good part of that conversation. if not all of it actually was about us russian relations. why did you, why were you agreeing with me? go ahead. well, i mean we've had this incredible of unbelievable gap in our us rest your relations with by and of course binding was not a, a confident, a leader of our country in terms of speaking to his fellow leaders. we know that, but there was also the, a very aggressive anti russian view throughout the buying a government throughout the democratic party. and unfortunately, throughout the republican parties, you had bipartisan anti russian is um, uh, rest of phobia, institutionalized, for really over 4 years. so trump, uh uh, and of course trump was personally affected by this is his, uh, 1st impeachment related to that. and um, and i actually, the last case people is, once he's government, this is why is the landscape should be very nervous. you know, trump has some good features, but he also is the one who holds

a grudge. he remembers people who have betrayed him. this is as loyal ideas, very important to him, and it's part of his success. and he does not trust zalinski. it also, um, pers, on a personal level, so this is the, all of this has to be fixed, but yes, the rest of the thing is most important. um also trump understands. uh, you know, with this greenland down, but you know, he understands raw materials. he understand strategic location. he does this may be from a real estate perspective, maybe as an american imperialist, if you want to call it that. but he understands that. and so russia accounts you talk to russia, you negotiate with russia, you under make sure there is an understanding with russia, ukraine, unfortunately for trump, for personal reasons, and political we is, is a historical reasons. it does not count for him. so these, these early talks are definitely about the bilateral relationship, which is, which is good because we have to do that before we can find out what's,

what the ukranian people deserve, which is peace. yeah, no doubt. if it's a neutral piece, it is a piece that doesn't threaten anyone, a piece that is profitable. you know, in fact, you know, we, we know pieces profitable. it really is where we talk about how much money you can with only a few people make money from more peace. everyone becomes wealthy in a peaceful state. and by and, you know, care you know, care. and after all of the bloodshed and all of the violence, there is the, the, there is no hatred of ukrainians and russia russians don't pay ukrainians. okay. you're with a us, a id helped ukrainian spread, russo phobia around the world. but after everything that's been losses on both sides, they're still not animosity towards ukraine and ukrainian people against people like zalinski. well, obviously that's different. david, you know, one of the things i'm, you know, going back to 2014, the origins of this conflict. everybody, not 2020 to 2014. you know,

russia in the united states don't necessarily have to be friends, but they should not be enemies. i think that's more to now than ever before. go ahead david. yeah, i think you're, you're exactly right. so the and that's, that's the greatness of president trump. is it in a single day, he essentially transformed russia from an adversary to arrival in a competitor, rape our competitor, versus a anatomy. and that's something we didn't see and, and divided mistress and in the whole key to us security is to as to neutralize the side of russian. why is the way you do that? is you be, is to be, have friendly relations with both moscow and vision and to, you know, increase investments and ties with the, with russia, with india to, and this, you know, talk about a new security architecture in europe and includes russia with indivisible security . the benefits all provide security at all. this is somebody that russia has been been, uh, you know, advocates since that is the soviet union, the 1989. well it,

it could be and you know, all of you. i mean, historically, um, you know, you all to is up a trail. i'll take you on the altar 2 point oh, in a new york minute. if it brings peace, all right, that's all the time we have fascinating discussion. i want to thank my guessing basil mode, jackson, and, and salt lake city. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here . are to see you next time. and remember across the course it nearby slots us down. there's a lot going on here. at the board, she must not sleep in a sports and she goes and it was the result of the story and bushek, nate or studio and i see for sure option that this be so efficient though for storage. critics. lastly, and what would you do? it was a school near welski territory,

so this could save the natural logos of it. so formally ship portion or the find me cloud, new dismissal are still new by shotwell, in gold and the site is close. i use it got the, the doors board, us at ocean continuing to go out and i get bully now. probably not sure of the south, the strong, clear, but i still don't. soccer in the south will so comfortable for both them. just got a smith gosh, care for which boys coming out on the bus, which is still going by the community. so i'm on the policy coverage. the union goes to the i'll go back to normal. yeah, i get to talk about it. there's dorski a whole bunch bundle of g, circa, comfortable companies, you don't want some about on. they're not, i mean, yeah, the, the stuff i do have tough go. we'll just stuff some of the

the war of words. donald trump bragg z greens. lot him use the last key dictator who tricks the us into funding had on winnable conflict with russia. i would be happy to meet with donald trump. we haven't seen each other in a long time in those previous 4 years when he was president, we met and discussed the relations between our countries. lot of of putting says he will welcome a face to face meeting with donald trump past as much to discuss what he says. a peace deal over ukraine has to be acceptable to all sides and europe. mazda support peace negotiations and have a good neighborly relations with russia. that's the view of jump on member of