an example for millions of the press on the planet, the the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the russians and the americans have made it clear they want to normalize relations after the disastrous biden years. at this point, both appear committed to ending the conflict in ukraine. the europeans and the ukrainians are not at the table. neither are and the seat, the

cross knocking the prospects for peace. i'm joined by my guess, got rid of in del mar. he's a former intelligence officer and united nations weapons inspector, and besides that we have peter because of the key is a professor of history at american university as well as co author with oliver stone, the untold history of the united states. and in berlin. we crossed the euro, she is a professor of political science as well as co director of the european democracy lab or across stock rules and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, you know, it's god, you know, i'm, i don't really want to delve into the chat or on, on twitter. it is so nauseating, it is so beyond the point, it's all this is jenny, reflecting to values instead of politics and geo politics. i have a very straight forward question for you. you're a man of history. what would be wrong with having the alter 2 point? oh, that would stop the fighting cause that's the most important thing is the have the complex the stop. go ahead. scott: it is interesting. i was in crimea this time last year actually of january of last

year. and i met with the governor of try me and a russian ministry of florida fairs official. and i said, why don't we have you all to, to point out, in fact, that's what should happen. that's what needs to happen. a gathering of officials, united american, russian, european, ukrainian, to talk about reconciliation and moving forward. and they embrace the idea that i brought it back here to united states and i hit a brick wall, but there was no interest in reconciliation whatsoever. my understanding is that there is going to be something over you all to, to point know in march. i do go through this, this, this exercise who will be, it's not, of course you who will be invited. i think the russians will invite as many people as possible. the question is, who will be willing to attend quest the courage to attend?

and that's always been the question, uh, oftentimes when we speak of matters of war and peace of people equate courage to fight. it doesn't take a brave man to fight. as we've seen in ukraine, we can grab somebody up the street bunk. i'm on the head, put a uniform ottoman throw me to battlefield, that doesn't make that man a hero. the true heroes are those who will stand up in the cause of peace to those who were promoting more. those who will stand up in the face of adversity, of being condemned, etc. the peace makers are the true heroes. and right now, for the 1st time, we have an opportunity for heroism to shy it around the world to bring it into this conflict. and y'all to 2 point, oh it would be the perfect uh, the perfect venue to do it. i can think of a better way. peter, essentially the same question too, because you know, every, there's a big uproar about who has a place at the table. why should you be at the table? why should ukraine be at the table? they don't want an end to this conflict. they want to continue with. it's supposed

to be the, the, the venue in riyadh was due in the us and russia to re establish good, good relations or working relations and to stop the conflict. ukraine and these in the europeans are not on the same page. peter a let me start off by agreeing with scott that the pacemakers are the true heroes. and i've also been giving a lot of talks and interviews about you all to. and it's a good model. but what i see as, as the concerns, and i have to talk you last night with my students about the site, 3, the after world war one. and also if we look at the, what happened after world war 2 world war one ever side treaty fell apart pretty quickly and ended up indirectly leading to the rise of hitler in germany and world war 2. and then world war 2. since they didn't have a endurable piece,

it led to the cold war. and those weren't the inevitable in either case. but i think there was a lack of wisdom. and especially once treatment came to power. this is what after roosevelt died. i think we were on a course to our world war 2 world war 3 and it caused more for me, the question is, what kind of piece are we going to be able to negotiate? ceasefire would be a start, and we need a ceasefire, or we need an enduring piece that reflects the interest of all the crucial parties involved. now, the united states has not, in any way respected russia's security interest for quite some time. now, we can go back to even before the cold war, and the united states has had a entries of russia as it at a me, except for a few brief moments when we work together. so i think what we need now in terms of

the settlement of, of this war, i understand why europe is not included in the early stages. but at some point, europe is going to have to be brought in. europe has been a detriment to the peace. so far at the end, so i think we're going to need a kind of an understanding that's going to bring in all the interest of parties. we need a stable security framework zacko in that in that respects brushes interest . china is interest. also you as your p and, and ukranian interest and i think we can do that or we get it's going to take a lot of statesmanship pull that off. yeah, i've set on this program for ever since the complex started. you have to go big and, and security arrangements for everyone. the indivisibility of security that is not even been mentioned yet, but that's has to be considered. erica in, in berlin is,

is europe, sovereign is ukraine, sovereign? because that's what i said in my introduction, but neither earn deceit at the table because neither one of them are sovereign. do you agree or disagree with that? well yes, obviously serenity is a big issue for your, for europe, and then it depends on what you define is you of. i mean, is this the you or is here of france, germany and other states and even the so randy, question about germany popping up. so i guess, i mean, the weakest element in the whole sort of chain is definitely the european union. and to all the reactions to this peace settlement that missed the trump and putting and visiting so that is, i mean for me, it's a tragedy. what is happening? i mean, not that the piece is settled that i'm totally in favor of this, and i'm very happy that the peace makers put him in trump. i agreeing on having these negotiations, but there is a point them, i think scott mentioned it, that you're a must be or should be in somehow engage because would be really sort strive for is

something like a u, p, ukrainian, or russian. say a piece ocoee picture and we had elements of that we had it in the means going into agreements uh, basically uh, is driving for a neutral and federal ukraine. we had it all from the cultural fairies from and 191990 and distinguish. i mean, these other concepts we have on the continent and it's, oh, yeah, if i get it, if i could interrupt here, i mean, the security arrangement that has failed was against russia and without russia. and that is the equation that must change. yeah. but that's what i'm saying, but that's what i'm saying. i mean the whole ocoee picture that we have in visits in the, in the seventy's with a going by the box. and what else? the bottom and kizusky that was then settled in o, c, d, and 92. the top health care is basically all this has failed. unfortunately, it has failed, but it has also failed because of the american intervention that we have seen over the past 1015 years, at least. so they'll call me the big, biggest,

most important point is whether europe, you talked serenity, whether europe could have and if so, how a sort of southern european stance that makes europe capable to build that piece order with russia. now instead it is right, there is one it, let me go to scott here, but this one word that hasn't been mentioned here scott, it's nato ok in 10 years, be sovereign in nato. they, at least to this point, it can't, it doesn't say and it doesn't seem to want it. let me throw that to scott a look. nato is a cold war artifact. it was created in different times under different conditions for different purposes. and since the collapse of the soviet union, nato has literally been a drift in search of emission. and also let me put it this way. natal only works at the united states in europe are on the same page in terms of. ready as and

objectives, even if those goals and objectives are flawed, which i believe they had been for the last decade in terms of trying to recreate a an adversary in russia that justifies the continued expansion existence of data. i disagree with that mission statement, but it worked for america, nato, as long as they both agree, that was the mission. and i'm just going to make this point right now. anybody who is seeking to build architectures of peace and stability in europe today, predicated on past relationships between the united states and europe. it's an exercise in futility. there is a revolution taking place in america today. and if you don't understand this, then you will not be able to comprehend what the future looks like. america will never be the united states that europe has thrown a custom to those days are over. there is

a revolution that is redefining how america looks at itself and how america will interact in the world. there are many people out there who believe that this revolution could peter out in 4 years. and that american river return to what it was in the past. i think the level of disruption of the deep state of the establishment is so severe and so absolute that no matter what happens in the next election cycle, america will never the same. and if europe is hoping that america returns to, to what we were in the past, but they made a fatal error. you know, normally when the, when we talk about american presidencies and foreign policy, the foreign policy changes usually reach culmination at the end of the 2nd term. here we have trump among that, into the presidency. transforming not only how america views itself,

but al america views the world and he will have for years to implement says well well, i mean, yeah, no town as we go to the break here. no doubt trump is in a hurry. okay. unfortunately, we're going to need patients to get peace. i'm going to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue on our discussion on the prospects for peace. stay with our team, the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by tell us to do vision with no real opinions. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse who really wants

a better wills. and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the the welcome back across stock. were all things are considered?

i'm peter little dry and you were discussing the prospects for peace. the . okay, let's go back to peter and besides that is the trans atlantic relationship in breach right now, whatever return, i'm kind of going the sailing off of what scott said in the 1st part of the program . it seems that the, the post world war 2 era has finally finally come to an end. there is a breach when it comes to security and a cultural one as well. peter. yes, this is clearly a, there's a breach, a fundamental bridge at the bridge. and in many ways that's as welcome to europe has been playing a subordinate role. your has victoria, along with us initiatives throughout the cold war and now in the post cold war. so this is a, a welcome moment. i'm not quite as optimistic as scott is about either the enduring

impact or the positive attributes of this. i have a much more negative view of the drum. as god says, add a new order could be much more along the lines of what musk with his fascist alludes and embrace the a f d or. busy or what vance and the hex that they've been saying. now i do support trumps initiatives. when it comes to cutting nuclear weapons. i do support trumps initiative when it comes to reconciling the relationship with russia. i mean, i'm very, very glad to see this and support in strongly on this. and i think it is changing the global architecture, a fundamental change of a sort that we haven't seen, you know, the, what the, when i look at what the u. s. policy has been toward russia, especially in the last few decades. i go back to brzezinski has 1997 grad s board,

where he talks about the strategy for a week, getting russia and making sure it's never super power. again, by resting ukraine away from russia saying rush, you will never be your raising power. but the world has changed, we're in the multi part of the world. and i think that we have to recognize that and begin to sit down and, and establish new security guidelines that represent the interest of all the crystal parties here. so i do want to say that summit that, that was talking about whether it's yadda or, or a broader summit, or we have to include moti. we have to include little though, we have to include several others of the south africans because we need an enduring world answer to these crisis that we're facing, which is a global crisis at this point to you i, i know the difference that trump is a very diverse and figure that speaking the obvious here. i hope that he has the vision to do exactly what peter said. i tend to doubt it,

but that's what we can look forward to possibly. okay, in, in berlin, what are the europeans gonna stop talking about values and talk instead start talking about politics and geo politics? i mean, i, it's so exhausting. listening to these people. they don't, they never say anything crowd look, we have to have a meeting in paris. well, they decided to have another meeting after that meeting to plan another meeting. i mean, it's hard to take europe seriously. really. they can even seriously consider their own interests. well, you're asking the wrong person because i'm also hoping that they stop very soon talking moral and morals and instead of interest. yeah. but going back to the natal issue of the transatlantic relations being smashed. i mean, this is precisely the point. i totally agree with scott and was pete that we have a sort of really a breathtaking moment here to manage. and obviously as a european,

we talk serenity. there is a question about where we live, where you will be if anywhere in all this sort of setting. yeah. and then you talk to me to and to, i mean the is this voting offload is, may keep the russians out, the americans in germany, don't you know, that was the role of nato. if we take that would, today, the americans are going out and should be out. the russians would be in, i mean, in europe and not germany up, but europe. yeah. i think that is the vision we should have. and indeed, there's a multi point level to shape. and for me, the interesting question is that uh, i mean the interesting question, unfortunately, i think that you were just taking the wrong decisions, my call shorts, a maps, whoever would be the tenant chance left by next sunday, which is that it's that of seizing the opportunity that the americans are moving out and giving us the chance to build again a piece order with ukraine and russia, that we basically, i mean, we've a, you pins are going to enhance the polarization the of the whole torque after the

munich security conference was about this i mean, drama and tragedy. it'll pop up onto the same as the color. okay. i mean we, you had the chairman of the, of the, the munich trash here. you know, i'm sorry. he was crying. yeah. yeah. i trying like a child. i mean that what i mean, i can't, i can't disagree with anything you're saying, but i don't know where this is gonna come from. okay, well, what was, what, i'm sorry, what was it? it's a wake up call. no, it's a circuit breaker. that's what's going to go ahead. so the problem is that they're still much of the penis type judgment and believe me, i was just bbc forward talking with somebody of the okay. well things that the only answer that you have. so if, if now is enhancing a weapons delivery at home seeing major, all your pieces, friends, doing this patrol at the troops border security, you know, the call we don't everything, everything they, they talk about now. i think i mean for me and i guess i, i agree was pete and, and, and scott about this here. i think that's the last thing you should do. so that is,

i agree with you, a huge sort of work to do, to change or to turn around the you can thinking on this because we think should not be a whatever drama to this uh, that the americans are leading us, but saves the opportunity that this is a chance for europe is precisely to go silver and precisely to get immensely painted. so what i can tell you is that all people, i mean i myself, am trying to build a sort of critical, you being sort of a community was spend the odds and with that to people and, and you tell you, then french people. so they are those people, but we have been all pressed in a way because media winfree, you know, this. so it was hard to sort of, to bring these arguments into public tvs. but i think there's an opening now, and the more we can do about sort of spreading different answers to what is should happen now, for instance, is now a german move on new trinity. the is know

a couple of, you know, it's, i'm intellectuals who signed a declaration on gender neutrality. so all of this goes back to sort of what is the piece on it? well, calmed, a good thing. it would be for a if we're talking a e l to 2 point oh is to dissolve nato. then you can talk about being neutral. okay? and that things become a lot simpler. it's really like, it's got, you know, i'm going to have to pour cold water on all of this. you know, i'm, i'm glad the us and russia are, are re establishing diplomatic relations. but the next step is going to be really, really hard. and i'm just going to give you a few words minsk assemble. ok, what, why are the russians going to trust this administration? i'll give you one word. trump. ok. if you don't understand that this man is unlike anything that says i want to, i agree. i mean, even peter will agree with you on that and they will all agree on that or for worse . yeah, and i, i get peter, i'm not mug just so you. i'm not,

i'm not either. i'm not, i'm as good and oh, this generator because the of another truck cheerleader, i'm not here advocating on stating the fact. the fact is there's a revolution taking place for better for worse. and my advice to the russians were watching the show is do not hold the standard of past performance of america up to this administration. this administration is giving you a once in a lifetime opportunity to change the way you work with america. take this opportunity and run with it. trump is destroying the establishment that hampered any positive movement towards us. russian relations, the establishment is being annihilated as we speak, the department of justice, the said f. b, i, agents into my house because i did write articles for r t has been a vista rated, has been eliminated. those prosecutors are gone. and those epi,

i agents are fired. that is gone. the pedagogy has been order to reduce its budget without any precondition in terms of peace with russia. this administration is going into a completely different direction, you know, who were headed the negotiations in re, uh you might think it was marco rubio. you might think he was backed up by monica watch, but the, it was woodcock. and you know, who is the most important man on the russian side. it was curial demitria of why because this was about the economy. and here's my other word of advice to europe. don't ever talk about the military again, because you cannot play that game, you can't afford it. you don't have the capacity, it will ruin you. if you're a point to see that the table find your equivalent of trail demitria sending to moscow begin discussions right now. how about europe can reconnect with russia economically because it's going to be the economy that's going to lead the way towards battery and relations. trump has figured that out rush, i think understands that europe needs to get on board. and unfortunately,

ukraine is trapped because it has become a problem that is solely defined by the military. and it will unfortunately pay the brunt of the mistakes. yeah. but let's go back into to be clear here. let's be clear here. you know, ukraine volunteered for this. okay. and you know, you, you, you play, you play stupid games, get stupid prizes. ok, i'm, i'm, human loss is catastrophic. it never should have happened, but i'm not going to let the ukrainian and lead off the hook. peter, we have ramos running out of time here. going back to the issue of trust. how do we get there? how do we start that process of building trust? again, because i can tell you from where i sit, there's still 0 trust. go ahead. as well as a long history of why there's so little trust, scott's confidence that they're going to dismantle, that they've stayed in a way that it's not gonna come back to life again. i hope he's right in,

in most respects we build trust by following through on our agreements. initially we're going to have to lift the sanctions on russia. we're going to have this. scott is emphasized economic ties. and that's a good place to begin. uh, we're going to have to take additional steps, the ones to be ready taken in terms of force and end to this fighting. and i'd love to say the trunk follow through. and cutting the pentagon, the chinese response to drugs discussion of cutting nuclear weapons was the arc, and you talked about america 1st. why don't be the 1st that you got the problem can do this. you know, we could, there are steps that the united states can take you to laterally to show its good faith at the end while it comes to the military when it comes to our bases overseas . i'm just back from okinawa, when it comes to our military spending,

when it comes to our nuclear programs that we can take you the lateral steps at the same time is really okay. on the on the po, have run out of time. i have a suggestion for donald trump, my 3 guest here at st. they should be on speed dial the you 3 should be on speed dial for drum to get and we, i or the okay, we run out of time, right? so that's it. i want to take my guess in, besides the berlin and in del mar and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. you next time. and remember us talking about the, [000:00:00;00] the a when i went to the wrong

just don't safe house after care and engagement because the trails when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for the common ground. the during the 2nd will pull underground power and industry organizations in poland occupied by german troops, as well as in the bordering regions of bella. lewis were united into the so called home on a 50, but i couldn't figure out the political center or would the organ. let me do the prospect just as because i use a blue screen time list. and by putting the front of it is actually considering the shoot, the through the sexual shy stick of the whom ami was the main organization of the publish resistance, switching against jim and occupation and soviet rule,

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bashful blue or you was, it does seem to have the us then what's the story and square. but yeah, that will be as much as it was submitted and then you have good research. of course the you also will, but when you're starting out here and you decide this will, who will, will throw it in your theme in a 2nd, or should we make sure that i'm not going to invite them on the cartridges? so when you look on that bullshit for me, they are getting near. so come and get them scored on that in college should have given the mileage and as well as my like the muscle, a bit of, of, of but the legal and i shall store up as i show a bulk, i mean it blocked off the middle of a see it, a senior sergeant and the 6 costa regimen. paramedics made this grueling war time during the, alongside andre score to submit all of them. but the book repeats some on the