millions of ordinary chinese, the the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the russians and the americans have made it clear they want to normalize relations after the disastrous bite in years. at this point, both appear committed to ending the conflict in ukraine. the europeans and the ukrainians are not at the table. neither turned to seat the cross knocking the prospects for peace. i'm joined by my guest, got rid of,

and del mar, he's a former intelligence officer, and united nations weapons inspectors. and besides that, we have piedro cosmic. he is a professor of history at american university as well as co author with oliver stone, the untold history of the united states. and in berlin. we crossed the euro. she is a professor of political science as well as co director of the european democracy lab or across stock roles in effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, you know, scott, you know, i'm, i don't really want to delve into the chat or on, on twitter. it is so nauseating, it is so beyond the point, it's all this is jenny, reflecting to values instead of politics and geo politics. i have a very straight forward question for you. you're a man of history. what would be wrong with having the alter 2 point? oh, that would stop the fighting cause that's the most important thing is that have the complex to stop. go ahead scott. it is interesting, i was in crimea this time last year actually of january of last year. and i met

with the governor of try me and a russian ministry of florida fairs official. and i said, why don't we have you all to, to point out, in fact, that's what should happen. that's what needs to happen. a gathering of officials, united american, russian, european, ukrainian, to talk about reconciliation and moving forward. and they embrace the idea that i brought it back here to united states and i hit a brick wall. there was no interest in reconciliation whatsoever. my understanding is that there is going to be something over you all to, to point know in march. i do go through this, this, this exercise who will be, it's the question who will be invited. i think the russians will invite as many people as possible. the question is, who will be willing to attend, who has the courage to attend? and that's always been the question. uh, oftentimes when we speak of matters,

a warm piece of people equate courage to fight. it doesn't take a brave man to fight. as we've seen in ukraine, we can grab somebody up the street bunk. i'm on the head, put a uniform ottoman throw me to battlefield, that doesn't make that man a hero. the true heroes are those who will stand up in the cause of peace to those who were promoting more. those who will stand up in the face of adversity, of being condemned, etc. the peace makers are the true heroes. and right now, for the 1st time, we have an opportunity for heroism to shy it around the world to bring it into this conflict. and y'all to 2 point, oh it would be the perfect uh, the perfect venue to do it. i can think of a better way. peter, essentially the same question too, because you know, every day there's this big oper our about who has a place at the table. why should you be at the table? why should ukraine be at the table? they don't want an end to this conflict. they want to continue what it's supposed

to be the the, the venue in riyadh was do as well. us and russia to re establish good, good relations or working relations and to stop the conflict. ukraine in the, in the europeans are not on the same page. peter a let me start off by agreeing with scott that the peacemakers are the true heroes . and i've also been given a lot of talks and interviews about you all to. and it's a good model. but what i see as, as the concerns, and i have to talk you last night with my students about the site, 3, the after world war one. and also if we look at the, what happened after world war 2 world war one ever side treaty fell apart pretty quickly and ended up indirectly leading to the rise of hitler in germany and world war 2. and then world war 2. since they didn't have a endurable piece,

it led to the cold war. and those weren't inevitable in either case. but i think there was a lack of wisdom. and especially once treatment came to power. this is what after roosevelt died. i think we were on the course toward world war 2, world war 3 and it caused more for me, the question is, what kind of piece are we going to be able to negotiate? ceasefire would be a start, and we need a ceasefire, or we need an enduring piece that reflects the interest of all the crucial parties involved. now the united states has not, in any way respected russia, security interest for quite some time. now, we can go back to even before the cold war, and the united states has had a treat of russia as it at a me, except for a few brief moments but we work together. so i think what we need now in terms of

the settlement of, of this war i understand why you. busy it is not included in the early stages, but at some point europe is going to have to be brought in. europe has been a detriment to that piece so far at the end. so i think we're going to need a kind of an understanding that's going to bring in all the interested parties. we need a stable security framework. exactly. that in that respects, brushes and press china's interest. also you as your opinion, ukrainian interest. i don't think we can do that or we get it's going to take a lot of specialists to pull that off. yeah, i've set on this program for the ever since the complex started, you have to go big and a security arrangements for everyone to indivisibility and security. that is not even been mentioned yet, but that's has to be considered. a little kind of in, in berlin is, is europe, sovereign is ukraine, sovereign?

because that's what i said in my introduction, but neither earn deceit at the table because neither one of them are sovereign. do you agree or disagree with that? well yes, obviously serenity is a big issue for your, for europe, and then it depends on what you define is you are, i mean, is this the you or is here of france, germany and other states and even the so randy, question about germany popping up so i guess, i mean the weakest element in the whole sort of chain is definitely the european union and to all the reactions to this peace settlement that missed the trump and putting in, visiting. so uh that is, i mean for me it's a tragedy. what is happening? i mean not that the piece of settled that totally in favor of this, and i'm very happy that the piece make us put him in trump. i agreeing on having these negotiations. but there is a point in that think scott mentioned it, that you must be or should be in somehow engaged because would be really subscribe for. is something like a u, p, ukrainian, or russian, say a piece,

saki picture. and we had elements of that we had it in the marines going into agreements uh, based on the uh, is driving for a neutral and a federal ukraine. we had adults and a couple fairies from and 191990 and distinguish. i mean, these other concepts we have, well, the continent and it's, oh, yeah, well, you know, if i get it, if i could interrupt here, i mean, the security arrangement that has failed was against russia and without russia. and that is the equation that must change, you know, the, that's what i'm saying. but that's what i'm saying. i mean the whole ocoee picture that we have in visits in the, in the seventy's with a going by be bought then went off by them and chi ski that was then settled in o, c, d, and 90 to the top of kind of is basically all this has failed, unfortunately, it has failed, but it has also failed because of the american intervention that we have seen over the past 1015 years, at least. so they'll call me the biggest, biggest, most important point is whether europe, you talked serenity,

whether europe could have and if so, how a sort of southern european stance that makes europe capable to build that piece order with russia. now instead it is quite, there's one, let me go to scott here, but there's one word that hasn't been mentioned here. scott, it's nato. okay. in 10, you're be sovereign in nato. they at least to this point and can't. and it doesn't say, and it doesn't seem to want it, let me throw that to scott a look. nato is a cold war artifact. it was created in different times under different conditions for different purposes. and since the collapse of the soviet union, nato has literally been a drift in search of emission. and also let me put it this way. natal only works at the united states in europe are on the same page in terms of. ready as and objectives, even if those goals and objectives are flawed,

which i believe they had been for the last decade in terms of trying to recreate a an adversary in russia. the justifies the continued expansion existence of nato. i disagree with that mission statement, but it worked for america, nato, as long as they both agreed, that was the mission. and i'm just going to make this point right now. anybody who is seeking to build the architectures of peace and stability in europe today, predicated on past relationships between the united states and europe. it's an exercise in futility. there is a revolution taking place in america today. and if you don't understand this, then you will not be able to comprehend what the future looks like. america will never be the united states that europe has thrown a custom to those days are over. there is a revolution that is redefining how america looks at itself and how america will

interact in the world. there are many people out there who believe that this revolution could peter out in 4 years. and that american river return to what it was in the past. i think the level of disruption of the deep state of the establishment is so severe and so absolute that no matter what happens in the next election cycle, america will never the same. and if europe is hoping that america returns to, to what we were in the past, but they've made a fatal error. you know, normally when the, when we talk about american presidencies and foreign policy, the foreign policy changes usually reach culmination at the end of the 2nd term. here we have trump among that, into the presidency. transforming not only how america views itself,

but al america views the world and he will have for years to implement says well well, i mean, yeah, yeah, no doubt as we go to the break here. no doubt trump is in a hurry. okay. unfortunately, we're going to need patients to get peace. i'm going to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue on our discussion on the prospects for peace. stay with our team, the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the welcome back to across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter little dry and you were discussing the prospects for peace. the ok, let's go back to peter and besides that is the trans atlantic relationship in breach right now. whatever return, i'm kind of going the sailing off of what scott said in the 1st part of the program . it seems that the, the post world war 2 era has finally finally come to an end. there is

a breach when it comes to security and a cultural one as well. peter. yes, this is clearly a, there's a breach, a fundamental breach at the bridge. and in many ways that says, welcome to europe has been playing a subordinate role. your has victoria, along with us initiatives throughout the cold war and now in the post cold war. so this is a, a welcome moment. i'm not quite as optimistic as scott is about either the enduring impact or the positive attributes of this. i have a much more negative view of the drum and scott says, add a new order could be much more along the lines of what musk with is fascist alludes and embrace of the a f d or. busy or what vance and the hex that they've been saying that now i do

support trumps initiatives. when it comes to cutting nuclear weapons, i do support trumps initiative when it comes to reconciling the relationship with russia. i mean, i'm very, very glad to see this and support in strongly on this. and i think it is changing the global architecture, a fundamental change of a sort that we haven't seen, you know, the, what the, when i look at what the u. s. policy has been toward russia, especially in the last few decades. i go back to brzezinski has 1997 grad s board where he talks about the strategy for a week, getting russia and making sure. busy it's never super power again, by resting ukraine away from russia saying rush, you will never be your raising power. but the world has changed. we're in the multi part of the world. and i think that we have to recognize that and begin to sit down and, and establish new security guidelines that represent the interest of all the crystal parties here. so i do want to see that. so i'm at that,

that was talking about whether it's yadda or, or a broader summit. we have to include moti, we have to include little though, we have to include several others of the south africans because we need and in, during world answer to these crisis that we're facing, which is a global crisis at this point. yeah, i, i know the difference that the trump is a very diverse and figure that speaking the obvious here. i hope that he has the vision to do exactly what peter said. i tend to doubt it, but that's what we can look forward to possibly. okay, in, in berlin, what are the europeans gonna stop talking about values and talk instead start talking about politics and geo politics? i mean, i, it's so exhausting. listening to these people. they don't, they never say anything crowd look, we have to have a meeting in paris. well, they decided to have another meeting after that meeting to plan another meeting. i mean,

it's hard to take europe seriously. really. they can even seriously consider their own interests. well, you're asking the wrong person because i'm also hoping that they stop very soon talking moral and tomorrow's and instead of interest. yeah. but going back to the natal issue of the transatlantic relations being smashed. i mean, this is precisely the point. i totally agree with scott and was pete that we have a sort of really a breathtaking moment here to manage. and obviously as a european, we talk serenity. there is a question about where we live, where you will be if anywhere in all this sort of setting. yeah. and then you talk to me to and to, i mean the is this wording offload is, may keep the russians out. the americans in germany, don't you know that bus the role of nato? if we take that would today, the americans are going out and should be out. the russians would be in, i mean, in europe and not germany up, but europe. yeah. i think that is the vision we should have and indeed there's a multi point level to shape. and for me, the interesting question is that uh,

i mean the interesting question, unfortunately, i think that europe is taking the wrong decisions. my call shorts, a maps, whoever would be the tenant chance left by next sunday, which is that it's stead of seizing the opportunity that the americans are moving out and giving us the chance to build again a piece order with ukraine and russia. that we basically, i mean, we've a, you pins, i going to enhanced the polarization of the whole torque after the munich security conference was about this. i mean, drama and tragedy. it'll pop up onto the same as sort of a bar code here. okay. i mean we, you had the chairman of the, of the, the munich trash here. you know, i'm sorry. he was crying. yeah. yeah. i trying like a child. i mean that what i mean, i can't, i can't disagree with anything you're saying, but i don't know where this is gonna come from. okay, well, what was, what, i'm sorry, what was it? it's a wake up call. no, it's a circuit breaker. that's what's going to go ahead and the problem is that they're

still much of the peanut stablish mend, and believe me, i was just bbc forward talking with somebody of the. okay. well, seems that the only answer that you have since gift now is enhancing a weapons delivery at home saying, made, or all your piece friends doing this patrol the troops border secuity, you know, the call we don't everything, everything they, they talk about now. i think i mean for me and i guess i, i agree was pete and, and scott about this here. i think that's the last thing you should do. so that is, i agree with you, a huge sort of work to do, to change or to turn around the you can thinking on this because we think should not be a whatever drama to this uh, that the americans are leading us. but seized the opportunity that this is a chance for europe is precisely to go silver and precisely to get immensely painted. so what i can tell you is that all people, i mean i myself, am trying to build a sort of critical, you being sort of

a community was spend the odds and with that people and, and you tell you, then french people. so they are those people, but we have been all pressed in a way because media winfree, you know, this. so it was hard to sort of, to bring these arguments into public tvs. but i think there's an opening now, and the more we can do about sort of spreading different answers to what is should happen now, for instance, is now a german move on new trinity. the is know a couple of, you know, it's them. intellectuals who signed the declaration on gender neutrality. so all of this goes back to sort of what is the piece on it? well, calmed, a good thing. it would be for a if we're talking uh ill to 2 point. oh is to dissolve nato. then you can talk about being neutral, okay? and that things become a lot simpler. i agree, like, hey scott, you know, i'm going to have to pour cold water on all of this. you know, i'm, i'm glad the us and rush. you're a re establishing diplomatic relations, but the next step is going to be really,

really hard. and i'm just going to give you a few words minsk assemble. ok, what, why are the russians going to trust this administration? i'll give you one word. trump. ok. if you don't understand that this man is unlike anything that says i want to, i agree, i mean even peter will agree with you on that and they will all agree on that or for worse. yep. and i, i get peter, i'm not my god. just so you will, i'm not, i'm not either. i'm not, i'm in the, in, in, oh is this because the of another trump cheerleader. i'm not here advocating on stating the fact. the fact is there's a revolution taking place for better for worse. and my advice to the russians were watching the show is do not hold the standard of cash performers of america up to this administration. this administration is giving you a once in

a lifetime opportunity to change the way you work with america. take this opportunity and run with it. trump is destroying the establishment that hamper any positive movement towards us, russian relations, that establishment is being annihilated as we speak, the department of justice this the f b i. agents into my house because i did write articles for r t has been a vista rated, has been eliminated. those prosecutors are gone, and those epi, i agents are fired. that is gone. the pedagogy has been ordered to reduce its budget without any pre condition in terms of peace with russia. this administration is going into a completely different direction, you know, who we headed the negotiations in riyadh. you might think it was marco rubio. you might think he was backed up by mark a lot, but the it was woodcock. and you know, who is the most important man on the russian side. it was curiel demitria of why because this was about the economy. and here's my other word of advice to europe.

don't ever talk about the military again, because you cannot play that game, you can't afford it. you don't have the capacity, it will ruin you. if you're a point to see that the table find your equivalent of trail demetrius sending to moscow begin discussions right now. how about europe can reconnect with russia economically because it's going to be the economy that's gonna lead the way towards battery and relations. trump has figured that out rush, i think understands that europe needs to get on board. and unfortunately, ukraine is trapped because it has become a problem that is solely defined by the military. and it will unfortunately pay the brunt of the mistakes. yeah, yeah, but let's go about this makes player here. let's be clear here. you know, ukraine volunteered for this. okay. and you know, you, you, you play, you play stupid games, get stupid prizes. okay. i'm, i'm, the lease human loss is catastrophic. it never should have happened, but i'm not gonna let the ukrainian and lead off the hook. peter,

we have ramos running out of time here. going back to the issue of trust. how do we get there? how do we start that process of building trust again? because i can tell you from where i sit, there's still 0 trust. go ahead. as well as a long history of why there's so little trust, scott's confidence that they're going to dismantle, that they've stayed in a way that is not gonna come back to life again. i hope he's riding in most respects we build trust by following through on our agreements. initially we're going to have to lift the sanctions on russia. we're going to have this. scott is emphasized economic ties. and that's a good place to begin. uh, we're going to have to take additional steps, the ones to be ready taken in terms of force and end to this fighting. and i'd love to say the trunk follow through and cutting the pads the gun,

the chinese response to drugs. discussion of cutting nuclear weapons was the arc and you talked about america 1st. why don't be the 1st that you got the front front can do this. you know, we could do the steps that the united states could take you to laterally to show its good faith at the end while it comes to the military when it comes to our bases overseas. i'm just back from okinawa, when it comes to our military spending, when it comes to our nuclear programs that we can take you the lateral steps at the same time is really okay. on the on the po, have run out of time. i have a suggestion for donald trump, my 3 guest here at st, and they should be on speed dial the you 3 should be on speed dial for drum to get your head. okay, we run out of time, right? so that's it. i want to thank my guest in, besides the berlin and in del mar, and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t. c. you next time and remember us talk roads

the the the hello, my name is joe, i'm a traditional catholic, father of 6 children. i'm from dallas, texas originally. all right, my girls. what are you doing? by that time? many things had changed since cove it in america wants to talk about the eligibility propaganda and all that sort of thing. we think that we would like to

move and live somewhere else to raise our children. 2023. my wife and i and my 6 children, we moved to restaurant really actually seen all these movies of russia being this dark, very place and crass and everybody starving. these are fish eggs. me and joking. so that's called the current and the russians loved pizza was what it's like living in russia with a big family. the good and the bad. the pros and cons expectations meeting reality . she'll not do that, but i can't do that. i see the

the, i'm actually retents in welcome to going undergrad, broadcasting and around the world from the us of a middle east that hosted peace talks the good finally and the nature of proxy war and russia through ukraine and of a 12 or 3. donald trump said afterwards that ukraine should never have started the war. predictably, the response from european the leads ahead of elections in its most powerful economy. germany. tomorrow has been panic. chaos, and the re evaluation of the spaces as sat trapeze of washington. since the end of the 2nd world war and the formation of nato, trump's vice president j, the vance, your lack of freedom to incorporate attention from european nature members at the munich security conference. so i guess tom of the british prime minister and persecutor of julian assange immediately proposed sending thousands of u. k. soldiers to fight for russia. this is, it was revealed, the 3 other for the elderly and britain cannot afford to heat the homes. it has truly be nato,

a reckoning with the atlantic alliance. and that's the new title of the new book, by a member of the german book to shag and foreign policies. folks present for the, sorry to bug and collect alliance 7 dads and then she joins me again from balance. 7, thanks so much for coming on before i even get to your book into a piece in a time. perhaps, but a real piece. uh, what happened as regards uh, francesco, been easy, the un special rubber, 2 around palestine. she was in germany. i understand you, you met her as regards the u. k. u. s. u um, genocide in gaza or yeah, and i mean, you know, in a sense of course what gage events did as a vice president of the united states in his hearing and 2 of the ontario, affairs of germany and disrespect into serenity of the federal republic of germany, of course, the german government, the actual one and the former once they did,

it also interfere in the electoral campaign. harris versus a trump. i'd say they say the parents, so i, i really judge them as well. but i do think we should respect the summarize use of the kinds of ways. first of all, the 2nd thing is do we were, what do you, but what happened is, or goods? are you referring to j events insulting? yeah. your parts, lack of free speech effect. yeah. and his speech at the munich security conference because you mentioned this, and that's true. that's a did. she has a point on this. because we have a lot of a freedom of press freedom of speech in the air in german society, especially in the last years we. we could observe that during the pandemic period, everyone who criticized in germany the measures which were very much