[000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter level, the russians and the americans are talking again. the media is about as about ending sanctions. the europeans, as usual, are angry, confused, and divided. in short, there are high expectations about dramatic change. so where is the trump piece plant? the

cross talking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, steve, jeremy and courtney. well, he has retired royal navy commodore in rome. we have thomas bobbsey. he is an author as well as i call him this for the british unheard. and the american compact magazines, and in lake jackson, we crossed to daniel mcadams. he is the executive director of the ron poll institute for peace and prosperity. hard gentleman cross lock rules and effects. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciated, daniel, because you got up early as for the program, we very much value your presence here at this early hour. and speaking of ours, you know, i, i have a different time zone than you guys. so every time i wake up in the morning, it looks like there's a difference, a piece plan. there is no peace plan. there's many rules. there is bilateral relations. nothing much about ukraine yet, daniel. well, i think it's a big problem. the deputy for administer. russia has been saying this week re up cost that we haven't seen

a piece plan. we don't know what the piece plan is. um. i mean, on the one hand, but rather sanguine about the seemingly positive turner relations between the us and russia. we've talked many times, peter, when we were on the verge of nuclear war and it doesn't seem we are that way right now. so there's something to be grateful for. however, um i think the are in coate signals coming from washington, particularly coming from trump himself. so exactly as you say, what is the piece plan? we know that later in the week the working group will be meeting in eastern boil and we don't know exactly what's going to happen. but this week has been a somewhat confusing when i have to admit when it comes to us pressure relations. you know, steve, it's, it's very interesting we had have during the sunday programs in the united states, we had steve woodcock, which appeared, appears to be trumps. at large envoy. he said to the american people, it's not a surprise to anyone on this program or anyone watching this program, but he,

he pushed back against that. the suspicion that the conflict in ukraine was provo unprovoked. and he said, you know, and then we had a pete hague said say, well, it's more complicated than that. that is a see change. i mean, that is in credible because what i have argued on this program for 3 years is that all the west has is framing and narratives. is divorced from reality. reality is seeping in here, but i don't see where it's going beyond bettering bilateral relations and is daniel, was that that's a good thing. that's a very good thing, but it's not enough. go ahead, steve. um yeah, no, i was uh welcomed um access comments, reboot with go to some to critical observations. i remember i can suppress this from this production and they're going to see them as an engine morning. well, we're going to multiple, multiple alone, essential in the budget code. well, the refer read, read power. so the 3 of us ones, each of them are nice talking,

so it's a welcoming thing. that's ok. i think in terms of the young provide, and that's what i think this to set something to send the past the rosario, so i cool the streaming neighbors who write expansion is to believe that the war was nothing to do with the worst nation or expansion. and that actually it started in trying to switch to around your back to the my mileage, although the religious. so we're showing one where voice is the willingness until recently. but where the people have been saying this started back in 1996 or so when jordan came and said that it was the biggest from this mistake, it price for history for the rocks eastridge found on the in europe in storage topic. i know the weights for going through to the chicks. there's lots of different plans for the rebel or um the uh, the pill pants is near means near telegram probably times most based in detroit, michigan. so of course, this was, was as it is, what's the problem there?

peter, is that the west has been guided by a political narrative, right? the rush has been gotta bite on a true structure and unfortunately, the people are pulled into the place for 2 reasons. are as far as i can see, the rest so nothing. well, yeah, and that's it. it's good if it's a problem and it's a problem. it's only going to get worse here. i mean, i have a plan, i'm going to be send out a plan. i'm in negotiations, you can just do that so long as we go to thomas and in room. you know, as i've said, you know, the bettering of relations between russian, united states is a we, we really good a change, but it's not solving the ukraine problem. the crate ukraine dilemma for both the united states and russia here. and, and one of the criticisms i would have of the approach here is there to, it's too many voices or too many people talking in the us on the west side here. it's very confusing and donald trump is his own worst enemy when it comes to this

because he says conflicting things, thomas or yeah, think of everyone else. i'm feeling positively bipolar these days. actually, between for optimism and and pessimism. so as the other guests have said, of course, having an american president and the other as american officials acknowledged that the back yard use of this war. and that this was provoked by nato. and i would add him and deliberately provoked, and it's of course, a huge deal and a big step forward towards achieving a piece. because only wants to acknowledge that the other side is not motivated by rational, crazy impulses, but actually has actual concerns that need to be addressed. the create an environment where you can sit down around the table and try to address the concerns of all sides. so this is definitely a big deal, but i think, well, a lot of people on underestimate is that this is only to fast towards achieving a piece. i mean, the road to piece remains very long and tortures that i think. people are on the estimated just how difficult this will be because region pc ukraine is about much more to just acknowledging russian control over the next territories. something to

trump even seems willing to concede, and it's not even just about stopping nato expansion. but from russia's perspective, it's about much more of this is about deeply reform in the international system. it's such a way that great power prophecy was a proxy complex lot. the one was in the ukraine, elsewhere don't repeat in the future. so this is about the really read of finding the global balance of power and you know, for the us and west, more in general to accept the multi polar nature of today's global reality. and even allow for the peaceful rise abuse centers of power. china, of course, but also russia and in this sense, yes, we've heard positive statements old. so kind of acknowledging the multi polar um, reality of today's world from key trump. yeah. administration officials. but i still think that, you know, trump remains young. this is my greatest warranty for holding to a southern side of supremacist and hedge, a monic view of american power. and even more importantly, at 0, some view of international relations. why the relative decrease of mountain power

due to the rise above the palace continues to be seen in terms of a threat to america is kind of vital security interest rather than just the 1st step towards america. just becoming a normal country. and i find this, um, i think this, this is probably the biggest obstacle to was reaching a long term satellite because i couldn't, i couldn't have said it better that you're absolutely right. because this is all about a big picture here. daniel, let's go smaller picture for a 2nd before we go to the break. is there again in the west and even among the trump team a cease fire is acquainted with peace. there are 2 very different things are actually not the same at all. daniel, what exactly the problem is the order of the americans, arkansas? are it seemingly because it changes every day peter? see me, they, they're emphasizing the need for a cease fire 1st. russia has said through it's students do it's, it's one minister love another. this is a non starter. we're not going to do minsky again, we've been there,

we've done that. we're not going to do it again. the us is, is insisting on this may be something that they can show to the press. see, we have gotten something done. mean, i think for russia, this is, as we, as they've said, clearly this is an extra central award. this is something that is part of our national survival strategy for the us. it almost seems at times like we need that we need to put one up on the wind board for us. so let's get this thing done. come on guys, do piece. if you don't, there's going to be a problem. and i think that's a real issue. and i think the president trump is, had a fairly bad week this last week in this i think ceremony where he claimed he took credit for giving the job and he said the war would never have started if i was president. oh, and by the way, i got the war started. yeah. because i guess that was, it wasn't able to skip the french, terrible, terrible nightmare performance. and it wasn't his only this week. so it's, it's actually quite this part disturbing to hear him say that. yeah, it is, steve, i, i don't know i'm, i throw a lot of shade on this minerals deal like,

i think it's a side so i think it's maybe a diversion about not talking about nato, but i mean it, at the end of the day, this whole the minerals i'm investment thing doesn't make any sense if there isn't any peace and ukraine. go ahead steve. i feel like i've seen this property right. so the i work in the offshore energy sector now off too much for us. and i think there is a lot to be search for countries of corporate and commercially. so the fact that actually the americans and the russians are talking about commercial commercial discussions in mind here is a good thing. i'm not saying that it's going to bring a piece to kind of. yeah, but, but, but steve, it's not the center of things like, oh, i absolutely agree what we're talking about, but it's not stopping the conflict that that's my issue. keep going. so yeah, no, i think in terms of stopping complex as being said, this is gonna take time, or if you've been to or, and you,

you know that at the end it was not much fun and it's going to be very, very difficult. i but to think we need to, to understand the longer types and the less ukraine. and you will have to the guys say, because rush are designed to set a national security interest, which is what i would do in that situation. and they will keep going until they true, but whoever i should go to secure what i will call this a secure order. i told i can 2022. that the way that the property on the finish would be russian words. if it could not plan to bridge the gap, so it will get up so near perhaps because that would provide a very natural strategic defense fine. and then i'll have a question mark, which i still have to test. but yeah, this is gonna take until the 1st break, most people, braxton's and the russians are talking are kind of sized time for this is sort of a feel a bit trapped by months. but it's much better for talking to blend. she's become rough, not so much. you just have to be patient difficult, which is when you see it will be

a necessary puritan going on. yeah. and now all of the chaos that's happening in the western world, particularly nato, and what's going on with the european elections. i mean, there's a whole lot in the mix here and no one is on the same page at this point, or a gentleman, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine, trump and the peace plan. stay with our team, the, the,

the take a fresh look around his life. kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power type vision, with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground? can the welcome make the prospect where all things are considered. i'm peter about your mind. you were discussing trump in the piece plan and you create

the okay, let's go back to thomas in room. i can't, i just have this deep seated feeling watching the last couple of weeks from since the payments phone call. okay, let's, let's start there. thomas is trump trying to do reverse mix and goes to china. and is this about you all to, to point out because i in trump is so, you know, he doesn't have a grasp of the details. he is, is his grasp of the ideas are getting better and better, but details history. it's not his forte. he's a deal maker is everyone knows. and the deal he wants is some kind of, it's already been mentioned here. so i'm kind of global deal. maybe he saw a short documentary on you all to and i know he's obsessed with china. he's been

obsessed with china since the 19 ninety's. is this what this is all about? thomas? i think it isn't part partly what it's about. um i think uh the idea that you know, he might be trying to. busy an a nick, some strategy and with us uh, i think has some value to it. and in fact, this thing catalogs himself as said so instead as much. and he said that, you know, he expects russia to, uh, you know, move away from china and that, that should be part of the deal. and uh, you know, honestly i see this strategy as um, as wanda is likely to fail 1st and foremost because catalog as well as other, you know, trump and boys. uh, neither of them is next. and so i think, uh, you know, they failed to realize the importance and some of the historic relevance of russia's eastwood shift. i mean, this is not, this wasn't just something that russia decided on a whim. i mean, this came on the heels of, you know, i would say almost 2 years after the, you know,

the end of the cold war of russia trying to integrate into the west and via into the transatlantic sphere. and, you know, just having to door shot in his face. and so that, that's basically what the, and the home and a did in the 2020 to the invasion of ukraine, which was russia, you know, as russia's way of telling, well, you know, okay, i realize that there's no way of peace of really reforming the system there's no way you're going to allow us into this system. and so we're going to, you know, we're going to do it some of the way we're going to force the other major powers to, to, to, to change the approach international relations. i'm some extent russia has, has succeeded with this as well where now, but of course, when you see trump, you know, wanting to use this as a moment to kind of, you know, redefine or have a geo political round bog. and in the, in the us interest, right. it in the rushes interest. you realize that yes, he does seem to be kind of, you know, uh, misreading the room because uh, you know, if it's pretty clear to everyone that the, you know,

the us and nato has lost on the battlefield. but that means that then you caught, ready, uh, you know, you know, impose the conditions for, for, for peace and um, and i think uh yes and, and disrespect um it says it's hard to be optimistic. ready because uh, i think, you know, this is about accepting the, you know, we have thrown russia into china's arms and vice versa. something that, you know, was for a long time was, you know, something that way. well, yeah. avoiding this was one of america is overarching priorities. right? but this has something to come. you with us the overnight and i think accepting not only does it should, does it west in the us have to accept the multi polar nature of today as well. but it also has to accept the fact that the, the west is sidelined in this new and in this new well because the other 2 major blocks and very good friendly terms, blotchy faxed to us. and i think the do we know the way of addressing that is not true and, you know, blackmail and it's not true. i still know i'm trying to strong,

i'm russia or anyone else. but is it, you know, this will be a long process? what west finally jo sauce do humbly admit, you know, it's, it's the inside of the 3 dimensions as well. and the re, imagine it's place in the world so, well, put, daniel, is that possible? you've been on this program since the very beginning, year, and we've talked about had gemini and the empire tenant learned differently. can the old empire learn some new tricks? i mean the, at the end of the, that's what this is all about, daniel. i mean, from the perspective of american exceptionalism, what's happening now is either colossally brilliant or colossally stupid. and it goes to the next in china think there are plenty of realist and no offense to realistic out there. i'm not one of them who believe that getting a deal with russia is very important because the united states military machine has to pivot towards china and to a lesser degree, lots in america. and so they want the same game in a different area, and they believe that that russia is, is a country they can deal with

a get out of the way, put that off the list, and do the real focus over here. i think that will be a disaster for the us and it will not work because as you've said, this is a different world than trump stepped into in 2017. the world has changed partly because of the us foreign policy, which tour degree has pushed countries together that have not been as close as before. russia with the, with iran and saudi arabia, particularly on the other hand, maybe it's colossally brilliant. maybe the american exceptional list are getting are getting put in to once again, kicks that football that lucy has teed up and fall on his rear end, which may actually be the demise approved. and which is the end all goal of the neo cons in the us and the american exceptionalism, the us to find the take down prudent. because i do believe that if he takes the bait from the west again, as he's done several times and it goes down as it will, then maybe the end of putin. well, i mean,

i'm steve. obviously russia wants to have good relations with all countries. i mean that that's perfectly natural, but the, the going back to what daniel had to say there, and it's already been mentioned on those program. there's not going to be another mince process we've already been there. we have seen that and put who is heavily criticized toward within russia itself. they're not going to do that. i mean, what trump is asking is, you know, russia to take yourself off the board for awhile. well, the russians are not going to do that. everyone knows that, steve, is this not going to happen? i mean, nothing. be serious. the whether you leave the west has failed or been defeated or biased. be defeated, it appears perhaps, or by some people that need a tree, right? so that's that, that is the case. so we're not in a position where we are, i could take, take terms of rushed out. and that's the problem. so we construct type tons of the problem is trust. and this is something brooks to,

to write about. so i think during the time it is sort of positive way to um what, what you see if you look back through history of the accounts of them that starts on the start history. as far as i can see, what they think it starts in 2022. yeah. what you say is, is the americans weston's west, those withdrawing you can actually from actually profited into us to be constructed all controlled and then of course arguments, frames the problems associated with that. and of course there's, there's a cool and share the americans and the british persuading so that you don't to sign. so i think that the russians read or suspension, or we've got to ask that there is a that we will need to frame to build up trust type of time. and that when come true, the consultation approach to a few relations for got to leave bases, confrontational,

6 versus to architecture in europe. this is month for about 12 percent of secure, satisfied, and well, um and, and thomas, the current security arrangement in europe is, was done without the russians and against the russians. which brings up another point. we're talking about big global changes and edits. it's wide open. what could happen, but i have a deep seated feeling that the transatlantic tradition is coming to an end, which would be a good thing in my mind, thomas? it's oh yeah, it took me to bring more just no, show not. i'm not so sure what's actually happening. i mean, um we've, we've mostly spoken about the us today, but i think he'll a huge obstacle piece today is your up and, and european countries which seem to have got swept up in their own propaganda in a way quite amazing. you know, they seem to have, you know, told them to tell that people that told us citizens and doubt, that as for 3 is a, this was about democracy and sovereignty and etc, etc. you know, they, they repeat it as you know. so often that it, you know,

it's as if they now started believing that themselves which would explain the shock act from, you know, tiny town and to table, you know, as if they're like, wait a minute. what's happening? you know, as if they truly believe the propaganda that it was coming from washington and even from their own selves, you know. so i think guess, you know, we maybe, you know, need to kind of result was all the psychology to some extent to explain what's happening here because a lot of it, i think is, is very rational on, but i think uh, yeah, we should on the estimate of course, people are right when they say that your current deal uh, without the us uh, continue to uh, allow ukraine to continue fighting for that line and certainly will be able to allow you agreed to receive any form of success on the battlefield. but it can seriously hand any of the piece dogs i can, you know, on this war mongering and fam, ongoing rhetoric that we keep hearing from you are purely, it is, is, uh again, you know, that we've mentioned trust. i mean, i think yes, whatever, true, whatever truck little trust that you rush or may have a visa be to us. i think they, you know,

they trust you or even less you're today is us is, you know, who built, how could anyone trust your current leadership? i think this is a huge, huge problem. and, and, you know, they seem, you know, positively deranged in many respects and it is, um, i think, you know, very, a very, very serious issue. and um, when it comes to trying to hang, hang on, let me, let me give the last word, van, who i mean, staying with the europeans here. i mean, i think they're more upset about being wrong then not being able to help you create one minute. go ahead daniel, you know, i think, i mean, i, i like that my colleague has said, but i actually believe that europe is losing its grip. and that's why it's turned into force. that's why it's arrested george ask you in romania this past week. oh yeah. oh that's. it's absolutely terrified. people like the victim or bon and rubber seats. so in many others that are emerging, i mean things go a little bit more slowly and you up in the us when it comes to electro politics. but look at the victor the off day in germany that the people of europe are

literally holding up their middle finger to their leadership right now. and the leadership is in full panic mode. the one indelible picture in my mind is the european sitting in paris and the kids table and mark router sitting right there with them saying, where are so mad that we're not invited to the big kids table i. e put in and trump speaking. so i think europe is losing its grip. it's going a little bit more slowly, but it's, i think something that's inevitable. what uh we have about 15 seconds more. i do think the electoral process in europe will continue the trend that we've seen from france. i buquet in germany. go ahead, daniel. i think yes, but slowly and i think judy debt, judy vance, has done a great service to freedom and liberty when he lectured to europeans with something i normally don't like. telling them we are not sharing values anymore. look at what you're doing, you're suppressing the desires of your people, the expression of your people. i think that will go down in history is one of america's finest moments. well, we'll hope so. and i hope that somehow will end this conflict in ukraine because

even on this program, we don't see the road map just yet. here as all the time we have gentlemen, i want to thank my guests in cornwall room and, and like jackson. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember, press stop, rules the the right now a one time is neglected. there's a need not to abandon the other stuff because my fear is that it was due to the bottom. dollar amount is one point o when i was son, was neglected, and $911.00 happened

the, the, the, the, the one who needs present the if you look at the annual, i guess we'll put down some, some friends ready for the does that bottle? is it on sunrise that is a sign, you know, the rest of your activity on the stove, we show it to the solution. she is doing much to it,

the prostate mitchell. i'm seeing you in the choke state. yeah, we do a couple of metro affiliate sure. cool, i see easiest for the additional se, so the the i'm action redundancy, and welcome to going underground rule cussing around the world from the u. a. up to fridays scheduled visit to the white house by zelinski or his donald trump, calls him the dictator of ukraine. so lensky off to seeing maybe a 1000000 of his people killed is now officially signed a way, a defeated ukraine's results as to the usa. well this up to forming visits to trump from polish, french,

and british class of state leaders who run countries without freedom. according to us, vice president j. d funds to moxie the anniversary of rush has moved deliberate down . yes, cocky of goods on your hands, because i evans ever read your, the usa and russian to vote in the view and against public countries like brickley, france, and germany. much of the world is united against and you can all make these suicide all european rump. if you raise your hand that prompted to slash social spending and pull money into wolfe at the country of hamlet. denmark suggested peace was more dangerous than war. and britain sakina as thomas signal sending most of the british army to defective fight russia. all this while west asia tried to cope with a video posted by trump depicting human netanyahu, avoiding over the bones of the biden genocide in gaza. and moscow again, is the form of the attendant candle in this office in russian on forces. talk to the imagery, training these on rushes, born and defense policy council. because i didn't kind of was so good to have a russian on the show of to so many people from the american side. you know,

we had the trump, the deputy assistant on the other day, semester and gorka. so um, i mean from as being saying off and on, it's possible. there is some presence of western european nato troops allowed in ukraine. and the 2nd level of the foreign minister said, no. so what will happen to the soldiers if they turn up their, i mean, right now they are in my 6 there in british special forces in ukraine. what will happen to these troops if they turn up the, as well as 3 helping to come without rushes approval, which is not forthcoming as, as we see, they may become targets for russian strikes. and that would involve a, those countries into a direct and immediate military conflict where the russian federation