the, the welcome to cross talk, bull horns were all things are considered. i'm peter a little ukraine. slower president. zelinski went to washington design a deal. instead, he laid an egg and that's putting it mildly, is the damage. repairable. is peace still on the agenda? to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, george samuel in budapest. he's a pod cast with the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow, we crossed to mark's level that he's an international relations and security analyst, or a gentleman cross type rules in effect, that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate it. all right, let's take it off with mark in moscow. here. we're going to talk about the if the

actrix i'm going to talk about, if there was an ambush, we're going to talk a lot of things about this unprecedented event that we saw with uh, zalinski is visit to the white house on friday. but i want to ask both of you the most important question and the most serious one is have efforts to end the conflict in ukraine, been enhanced mark or the been diminished as a result of what we saw, the theatrics that we saw mark. yeah, i do, i mean this is a frank guess that has shot the world. i. i don't believe that it has either increased or decreased the chance. i think what we had going in. there's a different dynamic certainly, but everything we've heard from the europeans and the key. every gene is uh, they're, you know, they're going to continue to fight, even if the us walks away a mark owing to georgia the last time i talked to you. we were concerned that the initiative that trump was so fond of,

of ending the conflict in ukraine during the campaign after his and all your ration up until this meeting. there was, you know, be, you know, hurt and there's no denying the united states and russia are talking to each other . that's good news. i mean, i, i think we all would agree with that. but it had very little to do with ukraine, and that's really at the core of the, of the issue here. so george, the same question to you enhance, diminished. i think it's too early to say the problem, of course, with a trial visit. he's really talking about 2 different things and suggesting that he's talking about the same thing. so he's talking about this manual is the low basically an extraction deal, but by which essentially, the ukraine, the dental country of signs is over to the united states. as the credits, and then as the credits a, it will have a vested interest in ukraine,

prospering and paying off its debts. crowd sees that as a way of providing security because a credit that has a vested interest in the security of the debt. they doesn't want anything to happen to the data because then you doesn't get his loans repaid. so that's how the drum sees it. but then he switches over and starts talking about his, the best deal with russia to end the war. and so it's very confusing when he's talking about, you know, which is he talking about, but the deal with, with russia and that we've never seen any trace of this all this particular um extraction deal. so, um, you know, that's my question when, when, when we figure out where, where everything is going then, and then we'll be able to answer your question. you know, go ahead match up and, yeah, i would, the, this extraction deals move. it's that instead in the water, i think it was always a red herring. right. i agree. oh, but if you take a look at the text of this deal, it was not a deck in on their academic deal as

a vague statement of intent that sort of political purposes on both sides. but both in terms of minerals to extract and potential profits and the reality of the legality of the document. it was never real. it serve political purposes. um, as for um, you know, uh, the idea of, uh, ending the conflict. the peace settlement. well, is one side the coverage impact by europe has absolutely no intention of diplomacy or peace negotiations. as zelinski made perfectly clear, arguing loudly back at the us, vice president and the president and swearing at them in the fall of firms under his breath in rush. and then you know, what can be done, the best that trump can do at this point is walk away. and that is what, supposedly you know, what the, you know, the,

the rumor mill in dc is that he's talking about doing. but i think we need to separate 2 things. now, the normalization of the process of restoring diplomatic ties and the normalization of relations between the us and russia as a bilateral issue from negotiations to end the conflict, then ukraine, which will look less likely than ever at this point because they are not the same thing. there's a certain amount of overlap, but increasingly they're whitening the gulf. you don't need to judge you to, you know, talk a great deal about the so called minerals deal. i obviously it cut that the document or memorandum of understanding whatever you wanna call it. and mark is absolutely right, and you and i have looked at and it's, it's amazingly vague. okay. but i think that this was a way for trump to get some kind of wind out of it because he, he is obviously not interested in this complex. he obviously sees this is biden's,

which i think he's absolutely right about that. um it was a way for him to show his base money. i've saved the money. i'm making money, his base. he thinks that's what's going to attract them. but it's a, it's not going to solve it, particularly since the so called minerals are mostly in the hands of the russians right now, which uh, the western media has and pointed out and obviously that there was a whole lot more in play gentlemen. then george a much to my lea, a trump through rush, the gate right? it so and skate, and then me. and that is in the back of his mind. you know, i went through all of this nonsense, this hoax. and you were at the center of if you didn't say that exactly, but that's certainly what he implied george. but he did say that the that, and i was very pointed, but i think the, the board about the the extraction agreement. i mean the, it's, it's all encompassing. it's a, it's a, it's minerals, it's miranda, it's boil gas hydrocarbons. paul, it's getting for

a structure. i mean there everything, it'll, whatever moves in ukraine, the light to say it's once a percentage of charles things of this is a, a good deal and see kind of whenever he's that he was off. he's aust, repeatedly this question. the security guard is one of those security guys when he was like, you're already done. so he has, these 2 wants us to that, just as says that, well, we're going to have people on the ground and you know that we're americans, you know, we don't know what, what does he mean by people on the ground, you know, contractors, military people, security you know what it, whatever we got people on the ground and therefore no one is going to mess with us . so that's one on so, and then the other onset is, well i, you know, we know when the review. so what's the point of asking me repeatedly about the so what about this security guarantees? you know, we've got to get the deal 1st wants to go to a deal, then we can talk about security guarantees. so it has these 2 ounces, but, but you know, when he was honest, um several times are you going to continue supplying um, support?

you crazy said these assessments now several times you said yes, i'm going to continue on, but i hope i don't have to provide too much because i hope we will have peace. so he leaves everything up in the now i actually think charles has is now invested in this agreement. i think he, you know, at the, if you were the ends as williams e is humble pie and go to trial and say, you know, we'd be the best thing. so man, scattered out of the too much stress. he's english isn't very good. uh you know that, but he really, really likes you and he really, really wants to work with you. trump trumps of you know, he's a very forgiving person. the value of the he doesn't hold grudges and i, i think give them by i think that is why here's the rice for deal is agreement. i, i, i interesting that they will sign something. now, when the say anything, joey, them with those, any money to be made, that's a different issue, but i think they will sign something at some point i, i think this, it's a fools error and i think it's a cover. like i said, it's the, give him a when,

i mean the idea of the, the amount of time and resources they go into a project, them the, it's a, it's, it's, it's huge. okay. and i think that new trump is looking for a short term when and he lost that at least at this point. mark, you were disagreeing. go ahead. yeah, i mean, just the description of trump is a forgiving person. i think he is. what of i beg to disagree? i think he's one of the most been skin narcissistic and vindictive human beings on earth and zelinski and the european leaders who are right now, meeting in paris at a summit, who's a, a, a conference title is officially the e. jo versus trump and pull. right. the european leaders and zelinski are gathered at had do best to remember that he is the king of elephants. and an elephant never forgives though. i've never so that's been and never forgives either

. i. i kept this a dread george. go ahead. uh the interest dislike. 3 more. awesome. yeah. the locker room b. o is the secretary of state diluted all over the terrible things that he and rubio said about each other. lindsey graham is one of his closest age um to a storm, a st. people to who can pay in the get to watch uh commer harrison's campaign. and yet they are they all warm and fuzzy. trunk is a very pragmatic for us and he doesn't fold group projects once. once a something is over, then the deed is over and you know the campaigns. okay. yeah, yeah, i think that's a good point, george. but you know, this is something that trump is a and get held very close to his heart in this. a lensky is in the way. and i already mentioned gentleman russell gave here, and i don't think trump's very forgiving about that. have that be? i correct. yep. okay, did you mark e and what was the setup? i mean i who i always to. yeah, no,

i'm i that was my 1st take when i watched the 10 minute clip that i think most of the news concerned people on or as i've seen, or at least seen part of that was my 1st reaction, right? that this appeared to be a trump vans tag team right there. but if you watch the entire 5060 minute segment, right, of the entire meeting, the 40 minutes before and trump, this was all done in front of the press. i will. and he even said, we'll take one more question, right. and then they were going to go off to lunch and sign this deal and everything. this was zalinski. this was zelinski who took, oh, he's been sitting there seizing and rolling his eyes. and the thing exasperated size and looking, i don't know, painted withdrawal symptoms, whatever you want to call it. over that i saw, i saw i would draw

a gentleman i saw i would do for this jump in. right and said, started talking, we want diplomacy and zalinski lost it and then he called him still back down, but he kept going and it was made clear to him beforehand, right before he came here, that this was a meeting that trump didn't want that a cron pushed him on that zalinski didn't have to come here to sign this deal, but he wanted it. but that there wouldn't be really no re negotiating of the terms of this minerals deal. right. that, that there would be no such ups listed. security guarantees in it. and that the trumps course was diplomacy to come to a negotiated settlement of the conflict and, and he, he opened it up and as j. d vibe said he started the lift gate to argue the whole thing in front of the american people trying to talk over the president of the

united states in the oval office. he referred to j d events as j. d rats, right? he called them j. d r a gentleman, i have to jump in here. we're going to go to a heart break and i have to add hard break. we'll continue our discussion on what happened last friday. stay with our to the, the, the, the, the

age, the annual, i guess for them to look for the does that all sound last that as a sign, you know, the rest of your activity on the any of the we show each solution pretty or she is doing much to it, the test i really need some sinew in the show state. yeah, we do a couple natural schooling. sure. cool. i see the list for the additional a fee. so the the welcome back to across that bull horns were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you were discussing the events of the trump zalinski summit in washington. all right,

george. and i have to agree with mark. i looked at it 1st at 1st blush because we were all messaging each other and we, i mean, and i, you know, i usually have something better to do on friday night. and i think the zalinski, he, he, he, he read the writing on the wall and was gonna throw caution to the wind because, you know, you know how to address that room. and he decided he went for broke, he went for broke and just like, i'm not going to get anything i want here. so why don't i just mix it up with a and here's a man that believes, apparently in powerful people, he believed the boris johnson that the, the west was behind him. ok. i mean, it's the has to, in his mind justify the absolute destruction in blood should, in this country. so he's good to go to the next bit or which is, this is the 2nd class better at best, and they're called the europeans ear. take george, go ahead. all right,

i think that's right. a bit. what does it mean us this of a 3 is he is being used to grovel, needing a sick of fantasy and flatter. remember when he came to washington. um and you'll have this lavish do prepared for him. he address a congress, they were on file, the ukrainian flag, even before the meeting it might be metal, the, it will, these, the democratic bullet, there's a republican politician holes, are they? so they was supporting him, old is a clue which are and, and, and the latency graham, you know, weren't you know, right down to and then even when you look at all of those ridiculous tweets that was sent out by pretty much every single you were the and lead to try the other them get them victor or behind and robot fits. so every single european i didn't, i didn't get summer. well, so the storm a made up word by this open. how getting of um, the zalinski only, and the speed of downing street actually on the street. he liked the coating child's. yes. right. so, so, so you can understand why he thought that he could get away with anything. i mean,

and you know, for, and i'll sort of the kids, you know, he's a, he is zaleski, is like a well celebrity. he's all the color of the old magazine. every hollywood celebrity comes through a see him. but the thing about the meeting, if you watch the whole 50 minutes, is a, he's being a noxious from the beginning is being or not just address. if our guns i'm not really responding in any way to trumps, conciliatory um process because controlled the saying, well we need to bring this thing to an end. we've got a great deal here. you know, i have, you know, i am an arbitrate that i'm going to try and, you know, bring it or bring it together. and the trunk did not take the bait. despite the fact that the, the poles, the lens can wanted to those of us how horrible pigeon was, how horrible the russians were, and how they want that to kill and destroy and the terrorist. and so trump would not take the bait and that it was really right at the very end was that it was

already winding down. it was the total is john of this, i'm not sure who he was. was this listen to the really stupid question. and then the other day, well, trump said was as well and, you know, what's the point of my saying, you know, you know how horrible page it is. and then i got on the phone as a binding the how's the going and, and again jane you've as to simply say, you know what, what it goes to does, which is to a far more trump of just said, but to give it a little more eloquently and they said, well that's what the night of science with science with diplomacy and bone is that i could, somebody could just simply turned on him, just least the soul tie that system. if that's the point, i mean that's the most, i mean, i think both of you would agree with me that trump's learning curve on this issue has been quite incredible over the last few weeks. i mean, he actually does have a, a grasp of what's it play here and in, and he said very clearly mark, you know, he's a mediator seat. that was the line that he crossed for,

for all of these people that are in it. a zalinski mania ukraine mania and nato mania. i'm in the middle of this, i'm trying to ended. that was something that he could not, he could a couldn't consider for a nano 2nd because ended with then what's it all been about? okay. and, and, and, and, and the europeans are in the same situation then, what's it all about? mark food for me, the europeans, i mean, this american, the american security guaranteed to europe is always been a bonanza for them because they really never had to take a stand. they would just follow america. this is something very interesting. is this just kabuki theater or they go to really actually make a a run for the door and then for themselves? i hardly think that's possible. yeah. so 1st of all, i absolutely agree with george that the zalinski is the ultimate petulant

spoiled child who has it cold. he's been given such a sense of entitlement. he is the definition of the inform, terribly that the terrible infant, the monster that divided ministration and the europeans created. and he threw a tantrum when he didn't get what do you want in any through in the oval office in front of the cameras. right. he completely lost it. um and, you know, this is, i believe trump is ready to walk away, not just from the minerals deal, but from ukraine. uh it in total. and the europeans have indicated that, that they believe they're going to, to pick up, you know, where off, and they're depicting themselves. they are lining up with the lensky against the u. s. president. right now. forget deal. great. let's talk about the transatlantic relationship and where that is going to go, because we're only

a month in the not even, you know, 4 weeks into the trump presidency. and, and we're, we're already going there. know the europeans do not have the military or financial capacity to continue this more. certainly not ad has it has been continue, right. they may be, can carry on for another 6 months, 8, bon, something like that. but i mean, russia's pace on the battlefield continually increases in and i, i believe they're going to go for broke. now, i expect to see of the increased speed for big offensive now, because they, they sense blood in the water and with no peace, you know, deal seemingly possible at the moment. then they can go for broke and go for a total capitulation i, i think that's certainly what they're considering in the criminal. you know, a george so much has been talked about how trump the questions and

challenges the transatlantic relationship. but given what, where's it's on folding right now? it's the europeans that we make and they won't allow it to evolve. it won't allow it to change and their, their, their biggest detriments to it. to mean jump doesn't like nato, he tell me to basically holds the europeans and contempt. and, uh, you know, and, and as much as i would like to see the us, we've nato and nato dissolved. i don't really think that's in the cards right now. but the europeans are actually pushing it along for him. george. so i, i think that's right. and that's a big issue. same thing. i mean, the trumps annoy on this was made. so i think nicholas summarize it, but he doesn't think that your bands a coughing up enough money. i'm any other and he's right. this thing basic, you know, particularly of russia is such a threat. it was the threat. why don't you pay exactly that by that's exact point you makes and the other one was gone. so the worrying about the big threat rushes,

it's not to us that he says we have a big, beautiful oceans as a big, beautiful ocean separating us. so it's all the threat to us, but if using russia use such as by the, the 1st he says, why resigning these guys the vios on them? why don't you pay more for your defense? because i have low intention of doing that. that goes like your b as in joy, this comfortable lifestyle and i've enjoyed it for many decades. and they go to, you know, that the not americans, i going to pick up the slack for the military. so this blush, the, the tool came out. oh, you would kind of call us now, you know, where, you know, with the free well, you're a, there's not going to be the leader of the model of the do lose a christmas ludicrous civil country. there's a ludicrous level lead a bit. it's nonsense. and like i'm in europe as a small other ones in building my car. i know that it goes it's nonsense and he cannot happen. i mean, even on the issue when they talk like well, we're going to a nuclear weapons. they go to the french and the british setting off a nuclear guarantee,

whether the 1st with the british don't have an independent the general decision. it's entirely dependent on the americans. they can't use it without the say. so the rank of, and the french have the doctor, and you get a doctor that can only use it for the, the defense of funds that cannot use it for any of the law for any other purpose. and this is when my crony even suggests that this, you know, this would cost outraging funds because they said though that is not for the purpose of differentiating that, that, that, so what's gonna happen in london today is going to be, give a lot of last, a little talk, but ultimately if they want this ukraine tape or to continue, and i assume that from the boulder noises they've been making, they want this to go on. they're gonna tell us the landscape. you have to, you know, a tumble by go or in your hands, at least a trump and say that i'm very, very sorry. i shouldn't have lost my temper. i shouldn't be much more of a, sorry, i don't think it's. i don't think it's gonna cut. i don't think it's the kind of the packing i but i think mark, i think part of the do, you know, trump was taking

a victory lab and obviously to me they did it for me. j. d. did you say that they did it for me? no. i've now i don't have to make any excuses anymore. yeah. yeah. i think if they don't believe they ambush zalinski, but they were quick to jump on the opportunity now. now they can blame everything on him. i think zelinski is political days are over. maybe he asked the question, his life at this moment, the knives they're going to come out and key of the shield of us protection is gone . poor shingo, and so lose me. bo dot off. maybe others are going to be moving against him. right? so the, the question is, is what was going to emerge now as the leader of the porch regime in ukraine. and that could send the whole thing either into a new naturalist fervour to fight to the end. and some kind of goths are damaged wrong or it could see the collapse of the entire thing. i think now the important thing is what happens not so much in washington or brussels,

but what happens in care of to george gun maybe the last minute go ahead. well, and i guess that's a very good question. what happens again my, my a reading is that they probably will try to make a bands because the consequences of america cutting off the ukraine would have the very, very dia for ukraine. it was suddenly that it cannot survive and the consequences of removing the landscape. then you have a festival, the question of who you're going to replace. and when you can just simply take him out and put in the allusion, the, i mean there's low cost additional mechanism board the board that have the, you know, they've, let's say, so all of them of the ukraine itself could just collapse if they tried to remove the, and this is, this is what happened is the country becomes, you know, a completely own subsidiary of washington and brussels. okay. they don't usually think about plan be very much because plan a was a bad idea in the 1st place. anyway, gentlemen,

we're going to reconvene next week. we'll see if anybody's singing come by uh, next sunday. afraid gentlemen, i want to thank my guest in budapest and here in moscow. and of course want to thank our viewers for watching us. here are dc you next time remember prospect rules the,

the, the only the for loop of those little of so for that's not the only thing that is done on some ground squared amount. and that's why little do you plus, you only watch the dealer words you're telling which isn't going to do with me as well. when i go and still able to stop, you just dealing with the dumpster and was told, bucking table of near when you push the issue of the of them. but what about this to move 0 easy lives, missed this. and when you go i didn't send them to do is make up the bell. i don't yeah. post the by the other was like if i use the yeah, i'm just thinking and then you slice that, i mean 58 and i maybe cause it, we can go ahead and always communicate. that means we could go up, nothing like minds, but it just those we have the we have such all push mojitos to yeah, you're losing a deal in space, but i don't think he will definitely stays for little in each of the but you move

in, you want to spend these, these 3 you particularly see i'm saying is that, but let me just throw it in, is this the one and then the other will be missing via guns thing and some lift that was the loop with this. so the 9 is not old. on the side of me is what the point 94 of the, the the, [000:00:00;00]

the, the girl is asking me to do the forgive share. do you want us to present the virginia quote, isn't i to where you would use to be exceptionally new or it's just meaning of the problem, right? you see the visit or the origin long? uh, i'm gonna stay in the winter. we've had any student interested in the