that is really the big they both as a great dream is called the as a, as a big is we all the biggest, really, which comes from which is from now you 3 these, these are my other know, do to achieve this game is you see that waiting minority creating minority regions where a, it's a to buy it, loses one has a t a cheese is good. so is this is judy, a multiple is room also is, is a little bit of the item. this is uh, uh, goals. uh, we are taking a saw so syria will out a t a fire i solution between living on a studio they can take is a can over as opposed to self level. see that i files they can have more. busy information about the weapons and money smuggling between us here. but it's

a great to go as real as the weight of these are the biggest views from you. so it just doesn't like that is going to do it for me for now here on archie international. but do stay with us, my colleague, you know, neil is in next and less than half an hour. now with more news, by the time afternoon, routes and seeing welcome to going under the broadcasting well around the world from the heart of the middle east. this week i defeated european union, scrambles it to lead us together for an extraordinary summit to double down on the proxy war in russia, 3 grain fresh from forwarding trips to washington. france has been a good macro and the u. k. stop. i went to violate the russian red lines and sent soldiers to dia against russia. after any trump row could agreement an economically

suicide. all european rumble the razor. now if he is isolated from the usa, that boats with russia and china of the united nations, joining me again from washington dc, is the best rather to leave and direct with the razor program at the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. to thank you so much for visit even for coming back on with the things moving so quickly relatively, can we just establish, i mean, do you think the trump administration believes that the bible proxy war that it inherited on taking office signifies some sort of a existential threat to the united states, trump, again in a game in recent to wait days, weeks since he was, you know, he rated warning of world war 3 if a piece cannot be found. but i think that's it. trump does not freak out. and several of his people don't, the russian threat to you pray which coast doesn't exist as an existential threats

to the united states, unless the united states goes to war with russia. but then again, of course, of present bite. and every european may so lead to send repeatedly that they would not comfortable with russia. so in taking that off the table, i'm going to trump is not actually sacrificed anything of the. the other aspect, of course, is there's a great many people in the american establishment and within the trump administration things which is really trying to that is the existential threat to america. enough that to is greatly exaggerated box. um, what is quite obviously true is the trying. there is a vastly knowledge of richer and more powerful states and therefore relatively new potential rifle dom rusher is. so from a purely rid of this point of view, it makes like some sense to trying to reduce tension with russia and concentrate on

china. and the trump administration has basically been, you know, suggesting this is trumps. next some to china. and i mentioned reverse that trump is, is going to, in a sense, go to moscow or meet with with pollution and drill brewton away from the russian relationship with china. a. yeah, i do want to get back to ukraine, but china, very quick. actually. 2 of seemingly be much colder on the plan to reduce nuclear stockpile is where 50 percent have. do you think anyone in the trump administration quite understands what's been happening these last few years and that some nickelodeon, leaving of badging, and most coaches isn't on the cards. because of the sanctions that were imposed, i mean, do they understand that that's over i think i for quite a long time. and there is this very foolish tool cause you know,

crazy. a breach between rusher and charlie know, turning roster in some sense into a, you know, arriving with china. that's not going to happen at the same time. but a lot of russians are worried about russian becoming too dependent on china vouchers. you know, one of the things that we have to offer to rusher as an incentive to make peace and ukraine and reduce its dom honesty, right? the fact that, you know, as long as western sanctions and european refusal to buy russian energy remains, you know, china reason the buyer's market as far as russian energy is concerned. and therefore, you know, has the ability to dictate the price and, you know, the, the price, the price is being set by the chinese, i'm not favorable to russia. so, you know, you, i think the, there is the terms a while on the other hand of groups,

the close, the very close russian chinese relationship does. um, you know, bring a lot of benefits to the chinese in terms of energy security type, military technology, all those things. so the unit there is the ability not to create a breach between rusher and china, but to, you know, to create some say an extra degree of distance between them. yeah, the zoom connections a bit off the washington. i don't know whether it's a little most of the department of government efficiency affecting zoom. what do you think the head of this your be an extraordinary summit of why on earth, the europeans or an elite group run new york up at the moment. why, why they didn't have a plan b, a in case this coming the with ministration. i was ever to take office in the united states that wanted to make peace wanted the tool and to some kind. they

don't seem to have any plan be, i mean, you mentioned the energy actually your been buying on the gray market begin and see from the who knows maybe even more than try to. we don't know. i mean, the sub, the cost of the war on ukraine is it was at the bretton in front of germany are paying for the war on new grand. now you play as some of the policies of the go to well, i think the point is that for many, many decades from the united security and strategy point of view, european countries simply outsource the brains to washington. and, you know, not to one policy will be out of it to the bi partisan us establishment and know that by pauses and establishment to ceasing to exist flu a little sorry. but, you know, you worked at some of the highest levels of you certainly within the scholarly framework in, in britain and in europe as well as a, you know,

within his bipartisanship how, how, i mean, you say that just to have picked up. they've just outsource their brains to the circle, the state. i mean, why didn't they read your books? they just know like you are now. them it prints out also based. um, it is very old. and even in particular, i think it was, it doesn't surprise me much in germany because normally this comes out of post from the 2nd world war. and it doesn't surprise me so much in britain because for grace extended the, the pressures establishment as most with the american one. and of course, the subordinate wrote, it was somewhat surprised me. the french have done this to such an extent. so, you know, they just were not thinking, they spent the unity, the 1st trump administration, basically just waiting and praying for the democrats to came to come back. they came back, they was so delighted that they subordinated themselves,

completing to biden's agenda and ukraine on until you know, months, in some cases, literally weeks before the last election. many of them refused to believe that trump could be re elected. and they was so frank and of that because of course they, they don't want to think seriously about, you know, having to defend themselves, draw up plans for them and security. they're just not used to it. and i mean, to be fair, of course, some as well, 2 things we won, as we saw with the stallman speech empowerment. this is going to take a lot more money that they don't have. they didn't want to think about that this is, you know, going to be very, very painful. but the 2nd thing is, of course, that for a whole set of reasons. they've trapped themselves with directory against russia, with the even a grotesquely overblown language about russian genocide. russians,

threats to europe, united, cetera, etc. and, you know, it's easy enough it from the to reverse that because you know, he wasn't in power. it will be easy, i think, in a couple of years, if we see a dependent governments in front of for dependent government to reverse it. but it's quite difficult to know for governments which are being screaming on top of that voices. you know about how, you know, you training must, when we must back ukraine for as long as it takes of full then, you know, basically to turn on the dime and change that to language, which sooner or later they're going to have to do. but it's, it is difficult, except if you have an elite that is so out of touch with your own population, all of these lead is horribly unpopular, including stories only just being elected in, in britain. and you have no real education and diplomacy. i don't know, none of the norms of diplomacy built up over hundreds of years. up in uh,

in western europe. uh, being applied whatsoever. it makes it dangerous for most go doesn't it? because as the united states may think its own deals with the russia, how to deal with the idea with m, i 6 will be there. but you know, oft or any piece agreement. as for the nazis of the east of you agree, and you don't to basically lensky, and will be against any uh thing that is a lensky. as far as design. how can they be dressed? it's because the drones is still there and frankly, trump said the, you know, a few days ago weapons would still be flowing in just not more. so and uh, but we do know that the drum new drum and johns low. well, he wants to supply uh tours me so i was easy to down in kansas, but he is expanding the war difficult for months ago is what it is. and, you know, there is so much talk in the west of how we comp, trust the russians,

and that's why you know, the ukraine must have absolute guarantees and so forth. but the point is, of course, that the russians has at least equally good reason not to trust us. given some of the, the number of agreements that the west is broken, a little circle was um, you know, as a russian expert said to me recently, unit know, agreement made with us can be trusted beyond 4 years because of elections. and you know, another policy comes in and simply tags everything up. but do you kind of the, the or pins would be insane to, you know, undermine a piece processing new crane. because that would infuriate trump and it really might leave the europeans like trumps as they all are undermining them. jumps as they are undermining the base agreement and the coolest front and britain. have you in security council vito's? so the united states rush here in china. conte team up and get

a resolution to prevent these western european powers that i call them the european rump of your asia from acting some sort of madman strategy. do they not realize russia has the largest number of nuclear weapons and that they would be against policy in washington, moscow, and aging? i'm not sure that they do, frankly. um, i've been approved by the lack of serious strategic thoughts in europe. i'm. but as i say they're just not used to is i, you know, i mean the bushes tabs and basically for many years. and i was being used to getting its orders from washington, and in a sense it is still a bad and the orders of the last us administration with heights. it seems still fully taking account of the fact that, you know, you have a very different us administration. i mean, my theory is that this is so deeply, i mean,

it was kind of genetically embedded in your pin for an insecurity establishment. i don't think i'm to spend the next 4 years basically treading water. well, praying that the democrats come back in 2028 a box. you know, that is given the general situation, an extremely stupid policy to follow a professor, leave it on the copy of the law from the director of the i is your program at the quincy. and so if you are responsible state golf after this break the welcome back to going undergrad, i'm still here with the director of the raise your program at the quincy. and since you 1st month will stay across professor and that will leaving are present even at the end of the one you are talking about the possibility of europe and the leads

just treading water and waiting for the jump to leave the office. do you think one thing that might concentrate their minds apart from their own electorates? of course, because they will be elections in wisdom your but i'll give the may change policy is if trump starts to withdraw us basis, say from germany, which is though seems to be being discussed in the united states circles. he, he only gave a few minutes as far as i understand it, to the publish present dude, when he visited washington, all the talk is of moving these tens of thousands of american troops to, to poland. do you think that will make these european leaders understand? i don't cause a lot of bases in britain as well. the items with they're going to be moved as well . that that will kind of make them realize that arms control the tool. and these are the most important issues of uh, uh, lives off times right now. well, i think, i mean, if trent move strips from germany component it won't have any effect because this

will actually indicate an increase on us commitment to defend eastern europe. however, it could well be that the trump administration will make this proposal in order then to be able to baldness away with russia as possible, wider owns and imitation agreement. as you know, out of the home you train piece process, we'll have to see the thing is that some, i mean on the one hand, i don't think that there's any chance whatsoever. the, the trump, the ministration will leave and they took the old will withdrawal the main us basis from your because, you know, amongst other things around starting that full space in, in germany, in naples, naval base in the mediterranean are very important to project in american power in the mix up, sorry to interrupt the if the talks in riyadh inside of your

a view which we know privy to happened to mention that as a overarching security architecture discussion outside of ukraine on palestine. do you think because the nuclear weapons i understand are in red stain, right at targeting, run yeah, i'm, i don't know that, but i mean, what i'm sure is that, you know, they use at least really government and the use riley loyalty would have hysteric space. so that america was actually withdrawing from europe. and you know, while the trunk is not going to listen much to european governments, he is going to listen. one seems to and that's on yahoo. up and then you know, there, there is the in the esl databases and intelligence gathering based and in britain. but on the other hand, of course, i mean so a fearful oh the europeans and the germans. and of course,

the polls and in particular about any us with the tool that it would only take a raw the limits hit us withdrawal threats of, of withdrawal. you know, not sizing down wrong starting. but you know, between some us troops, basically for a bucket of cold war for them and tell them, look, you better, listen, when we tell you that, you know, we, we want to peace settlement with russia. so i think that could well be the, the approach or the trump the ministration. they also turned in a mood to send some pretty stuff messages to you or yeah, no, that the j d balances message at the munich for them and elsewhere about the lack of free speech in western europe seem to do much them and me. so i have them to remaining police and judges school front bumper and remain is electra, which it has been referred to. again, i think by j. b, j. d. but you don't have to shed values if you're jailing people,

you don't have shared values. if you can single reactions because you don't like the result that happened in your romania, but i suppose they'll get the message. these european relates to the they better take the old as just as they took the old is blinking and but otherwise they're in big, much bigger trouble than even would have been wielded. uh, how would it be wielded by them and blink or i think so. i mean, if you look at the new john and sean solicitors, mallets the key, what from black truck for most of his career electronics, atlanta system is, is, you know, they extend to his bones. and so i strongly suspect that all through his talk of your pin independence in the end he will defer to, to washington. but the other thing, of course, is that in advance is remarks of being portrayed as america against your, you know, in america cutting itself off from your husband fence. his plan,

the tools of what firms is trying to do is position himself as the leader of a new international conservative movement, including the ones like the pen in fronts and gonna asked in germany, that's very different from trump who doesn't, who genuine is not give a damn about ideology, you will europe, or many other things. but this wasn't violence against you or this was vance citing with this new wing of european politics against the old european, which anyways, if we decided to which anyways in the attendance because of the sales sanctioning of the 3 is since $20.00 to $82.00. i mean, these, these are all yesterday's men in effect, as incredibly unpopulated, unpopular they live with huge, really divided populations between rich and poor. and then we get to comment like method fredrickson for denmark. thing kind of piece is more dangerous than war. i

mean, a withdrawal he about them eventually realizing they have to follow washington's orders, but that is what is being site. this isn't what it's been sounding like for the past. the days since the munich security summit, again in the game except for macro in washington looking like, uh, uh, like his yeah, puppy dog. i mean they, they keep saying this is dangerous, trump is wrong. the americans are wrong and was the germans took about some years old, the americans working against nature. it was the german seeming to suggest the hand of nato and going out alone, a pariah continental west and consummate. this is the crazy thing about that is really to really i'm sure of the americans, few and future american support. that should be a most it's, you know, to, to end the war in ukraine and reduce tension with russia. and you know, i have reminded some danish tells us that russia, no russian government,

as far as i know in the whole of russian history. leslie bruton has ever claimed or threatened a single inch of danish territory mange. i'm well aware of, of course the us administration has just exactly to monday, but so we say suggested very strongly. but denmark my times over a 100 as 384-0000 square miles of danish territory. most of the in fact, oh, well, i mean it's not really denmark, but still, but it's just very old. i mean, you know what it is done, but we're going to allow that trump the story to but it is getting the right to bring it to his birth, you know, but i mean in a western academic, so i like to, to preston in a patronize in fashion about pos dependency of russia. you know, it's tied to its history and pos dependency of china and wherever. but you could

hardly find a more puff dependent. lot of them. uh, you know, the, the pin for the security of the, to the moment they, they put themselves on a railway track of facility to russia and they seem incapable of getting upset. i mean, they will eventually, but i'm my god, it's taking a long time because when it'll take generations, and of course, it's not just be a leads. some polls show that a convincing numbers of population of western europe is realm of your raise. you do believe all the propaganda and so on and to see russia as the biggest threat to their existence. not realizing that the reason defense expenditure was lower was not because since the 1991 wasn't because of the united states were paying for it, it was because they brush or pose no threat to the as well. exactly. i mean, one of the crazy things is, i mean, i suppose this is also this,

the sites my age. but nobody seems to remember gorbachev will go up the mania about him and his idea of a common european home. um, you know, whichever, whichever one was of july, sort of that kind of calls in his legs. he is going to trust. i mean, he strangely criticized booted. but he also bits of the come to the west, so betrayed that vision and roughly, i think. but of course, when it comes to your pin publics, well, what can you expect the look of person? i mean, it's the bbc. i am the times. i'm the daily teller growth and even they've gone to a unit and the magazines all in say exactly the same thing and the read, basically getting back to from government funded. think turning, switch all unanimous on the same subject. you know, i mean,

you come expect probably people to know any better they, they all mean that's the thing. so we talk about russian misinformation, uh, bought by different parts of tools. but even if you look at britain today, um, in the very mean in a sense, there is no public debate. there is no public serious public discussion about british interests, british priorities, international realities. miller tre, reality is you know, it's really authoritarian regimes would have to work very, very hard to create the kind of, you know, absolute media and intellectual consensus that you see in, in britain though, in spanish during this the are who i have the guts to say that things, those are lead, still want are detained in my country, are and,

and you are going to, you can present and r t is bad. the goal is that fox news is banned from broke cost . effectively. there's enough comb agency that prevents view points and presumably some scholars press t v from a bunch of and they just don't allow these. they rumble in front is banned. do you think we'll ever see a free press again in western europe as possible? what's been going on as in uh, q have and moscow when i hope so, but of course the fear is, and i mean, i think you've seen this in america that, you know, let's face it is the democratic policy and it's media or allies, you know, winton for a, you know, as, as it turned out almost totally on based unit campaign of misinformation against trump is a russian agent. in the process of pools. all of this will come out of

inventing material or adopting totally, you know, on base material and the schools manipulating the u. s. secret services. well, now you see of course, the trump administration hitting back during the same unit the same. but if you're like even worse, i mean, this is my fear of quotes that the, the present order will collapse. but you will see a new from, you know, the more radical rights in europe. and which will then try to impose its own and forced consensus, which will be different, but not necessarily better. just finally got had a buzz is extraordinary. so i'm it. so what, it'll just be a bunch of days any, it will be a real mood don't seem to understand the new realities. what the,

what does it say about scholars, interior politics and international relations, scholarship and international relations in diplomacy, in these western european capitals. will it take a generation to get people to understand the group think is the enemy of being a scholar. while i have to say, i mean for me, this is a deeply depressing because i was, as you know, which one's best and on a pulled by what's happened to westman john, listen and an academic terms. i'm a combination of the international relations, the textbook, and as far as i can see, i are as an academic subject has, has become totally useless. it's contributed nothing new value in policy terms to the formulation of policy. but historians are very good at discussing the immensely complex reasons for the origins of the 1st. well, i'm, you know, jen, jen generally agree in that. they went complex on the old phone to room,

but she wasn't on one side or the other. um, but have withdrawn was totally from any attempt to suggest that this might have lessons for the present to lessons of the unit, the self righteousness of the present. and the area start is um for us. i believe it right. uh but uh so yeah. well, i am in a mood of dispatch. maybe i hope that be correct itself provides rather to leave and thank you. that's it for the show you. some it's on ukraine is scheduled for thursday. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch with our lot social media results, huntsville, country, and channel going undergoing to feel normal dot com to let you know that as a going undergrads is either the

the headline stories this our over 30 residential curse, cal cap, the by be creating an armed forces are in the process of returning home. also coming up coordination of the warring fronts and the u. k. push their chair side and pitcher planned who puts boots on the ground in ukraine while admitting that can do that with i think us and washington isn't the exact same rushing to get on board. i've asked every foreign minister i meet with. tell me your idea of how this turns out most don't have a plan. a few have said, well, let's give them another year fighting a year from now a year later after another year of death, another year of destruction. essentially, ukraine is on life support.