to you, great miracles does exist as an essential threats to the united states unless the united states goes to war with russia. but then again, of course, of present bite and every european may so lead to send repeatedly that they would not comfortable with russia. so in taking that off the table, i'm going to, the trump is not actually sacrificed anything of the. the other aspect, of course is there's a great many people in the american establishment and within the trump administration things which is really china. that is the existential threat. to america, and that's that too is greatly exaggerated. bought um, what is quite obviously true is the trying. there is a vastly knowledge of richer and more powerful states and therefore relatively new potential rifle. the rusher is so from

a purely rid of this point of view, it makes like some sense to trying to reduce tension with russia and concentrate on china and trumpet ministration has basically been, you know, suggesting this is from nixon to china. moment in reverse, that trump is, is going to, in a sense, go to moscow or meet with with pollution and cruel brewton away from the russian relationship with china. yeah, i do want to get back to ukraine, but china, very quick. actually 2 of seemingly be much colder on the plan to reduce nuclear stockpile is by 50 percent. have, do you think anyone in the trump administration quite understands what's been happening these last few years and that some nickelodeon, leaving of badging and most coaches isn't on the cards because of the sanctions that we're yeah, imposed. i mean, do they understand that that's over i think i for quite

a long drive and there is this very foolish tool cuz you know, creating a, a breach between rusher and showing no turning roster in some sense into a, you know, arrival of china. that's not going to happen at the same time, but a lot of russians are worried about russian becoming too dependent on china values . you know, one of the things that we have to offer to rusher as an incentive to make peace and ukraine and reduce its dom honesty, right? the fact that, you know, as long as western sanctions and european refusal to buy russian energy remains, you know, china reason the buyer's market as far as russian energy is concerned. and therefore, you know, has the ability to dictate the price and, you know, the, the price, the price is being set by the chinese, i'm not favorable to russia. so,

you know, i think the, there's the terms a while on the other hand of groups, the close, the very close russian chinese relationship does. um, you know, bring a lot of benefits to the chinese in terms of energy security type, military technology, all those things. so, you know, i think there is the ability not to create a breach between rusher and china, but to, you know, to prices. this was an extra degree of distance between them. yeah. the zoom connections a bit off the washington. i don't know what the us department of government efficiency affecting zoom. what do you think then headed this european, extraordinary summit of why on earth, the europeans or an elite group run their your up at the moment. what, why they didn't have a plan b, a in case this kind of administration. i was ever to take office in the united

states that wanted to make peace, wanted the tool and to some kind. they don't seem to have any plan be, i mean, you mentioned the energy actually your been buying on the gray market begin to cheat from the who knows. maybe even more than china. we don't know. i mean, the sub, the cost of the war on ukraine is it was at the bretton in front of germany, a paying for the war on new grand now you play as somebody else. he's a guy go to hell. i think the point is that from many, many decades, from the united security and strategy point of view, european countries simply outsource the brains to washington. and, you know, not to one policy will be out of it to the bipartisan us establishment. i know that bobby pauses and establishment just ceasing to exist fluid. oh, sorry, but you know, you worked at some of the highest levels of you certainly within the scholarly

framework in, in britain and in europe as well as a, you know, within this bipartisanship how, how, i mean, you say that just to have picked up. they've just outsource their brains to the so called the state. i mean, why didn't they read your books? they just know like you are now and then it prints out also based. um, it is very old. um, you know, particular i think it was, it doesn't surprise me much in germany because only this comes out of post from the 2nd world war. and it doesn't surprise me so much in britain because for grace extent, the, the pressures establishment as most with the american one. and of course, the subordinate wrote, it was somewhat surprised me. the french have done this to such an extent. so, you know, they just were not thinking they spent, you know, the, the 1st trump administration, basically just waiting and praying for the democrats to came to come back. they

came back, they was so delighted that they subordinated themselves completely to biden's agenda and ukraine on until you know, months in some cases, literally weeks before the last election. many of them refused to believe that trump could be re elected. and they was so frank and of that because of course they, they don't want to think seriously about, you know, having to defend themselves, draw up plans for them and security, they're just not used to it. and i mean to be fab of coal, some as well. 2 things we won as we saw with a strong and speech empowerment. this is going to take a lot more money that they don't have. they didn't want to think about that this is, you know, going to be very, very painful. but the 2nd thing is, of course, that for a whole set of reasons. they trump themselves with directories against russia,

with the even a grotesquely overblown language about russian genocide. russians, threats to europe, united cetera, et cetera. and, you know, it's easy enough the from the to reverse that because you know, he wasn't in power. it will be easy, i think, in a couple of years, if we see a dependent governments in front of for dependent government to reverse it. but it's quite difficult to know for governments which are being screaming on top of that voices. you know about how, you know, you train must, when we must back ukraine for as long as you takes of full then, you know, basically to turn on the dime and change that to language, which sooner or later they're going to have to do. but it's, it is difficult, except if you have an elite that is so out of touch with your own population, all of these lead is horribly unpopular, including stories only just been elected in, in britain. and you have no real education in diplomacy. i don't know,

none of the norms of diplomacy built up over hundreds of years in uh, in western europe. uh, being applied whatsoever. it makes it dangerous for most good, doesn't it? because as the united states may seek its own, deals with the russia. how to deal with the idea that with m, i 6, will be there, the, you know, off to any disagreement as for the nazis of the east, of you. great. and you don't to basically lensky and will be against any uh thing that zalinski is fullest design. how can they be dressed? it's because the drones are still there. and frankly, trump said the, you know, in a few days ago, weapons would still be flowing in just not more so and, uh, but we do know that the drum, your drum and johns low, well, he wants to supply a towards me. so i was easy to down in fans, but he's expanding the war difficult for me. months ago is what it is. and you know, there is so much talk in the west of how we comp trust the russians,

and that's why you know, the ukraine must have absolute guarantees and so forth. but the funds, of course, that the russians have at least equally good reason not to trust us. given some of the, the number of agreements that the west is broken. a little circle was um, you know, as a russian expert said to me recently, unit know, agreement made with us can be trusted beyond 4 years because of elections. and you know, another policy comes in and simply tags everything up. but do you kind of the, the or pins would be insane to, you know, undermine a piece process, a new crane because that would infuriate trump and it really might leave the europeans like trumps as they all are undermining them. jumps as they are undermining the base agreement and the coolest front and britain have you in security council vito's. so the united states rush here in china conte team up and

get a resolution to prevent these western european powers that i call them the european rump of your asia from acting some sort of madman strategy. do they not realize russia has the largest number of nuclear weapons and that they would be against policy in washington, moscow, and aging? i'm not sure that they do, frankly. um, i've been approved by the lack of serious strategic thoughts in europe. i'm. but as i say they're just not used to is i, you know, i mean the bushes tabs and basically so many years. and i was being used to getting its orders from washington, and in a sense it is still a bad and the orders of the last us administration. and when i have to, it seems still fully taking account of the fact that, you know, you have a very different us administration. i mean,

my theory is that this is so deeply, i mean, it was kind of genetically embedded in your pin for an insecurity establishments. that they had to spend the next 4 years, basically treading water. um, well, praying that the democrats come back in 2028 a box. you know, that is give them the general situation an extremely stupid policy to follow a professor, leave it on a copy of that well from the director of the i is your program at the quincy is if you are responsible state golf, after this break the,

[000:00:00;00] the the

the the welcome back to going undergrad. i'm still here with the director of the razor program at the quincy and since the 1st month was bankrupt, professor image will leaving present even at the end of the one you are talking about the possibility of european the leads just treading water and waiting for the jump to leave the office. do you think one thing that might concentrate their minds apart from their own electorates? of course, because they will be elections, you must in your a. but i'll give the may change policy is if trump starts to withdrawal us basis, say from germany which is now seems to be being discussed in the united states circles. he. he only gave a few minutes as far as i understand it, to the police present due to when he visited washington. although the total cause of moving these tens of thousands of american troops to, to poland. do you think that will make these european leaders understand? i know cause a lots of bases and britain as well. the items within they going to be moved as

well that that will kind of make them realize that arms control the tool. and these are the most important issues of uh, uh, lives off times right now. well, i think, i mean, if trent news troops from germany component it won't have any effect because this will actually indicate an increase on us commitment to defend eastern europe. however, uh, it could well be that the trump administration will make this proposal in order then to be able to bargain this away with russia as possible, wider owns and imitation agreement. as you know, out of the whole ukraine peace process. we'll have to see the thing is that some, i mean on the one hand, i don't think that there's any chance whatsoever the,

the trunk ministration will leave native old will withdrawal the main us basis from your because, you know, amongst other things ramstein, nashville space in in germany, in naples, naval base and the mediterranean are very important to projecting american power in the mix. i'm sorry to interrupt the if the talks in riyadh inside your area, which we don't privy to happen to mention that as a overarching security architecture discussion outside of ukraine and palestine. do you think because the nuclear weapons i understand are in red stain right at targeting run? yep. um i, i just knew that, but i mean, uh, what i'm sure is that, you know, they use at least really government and these riley loyalty would have hysterics if they sold that america was actually withdrawing from europe. and even while the trunk is not going to listen much to european governments, he is going to listen. one seems to and that's on yahoo. up and then you know, there,

there is the in apple databases and intelligence gathering based and in britain. but on the other hand, of course, i mean so a fearful all the europeans and the germans. and of course, the polls and in particular about any us with the tool that it would only take a raw the limits hit us withdrawal threats of, of withdrawal. you know, not closing down wrong starting um, but you know, between some us troops basically for a bucket of cold war for them and tell them, look, you better, listen, when we tell you that, you know, we, we want to peace settlement with russia. so i think that could well be the approach to the trump, the ministration. they also turned in a mood to send some pretty stuff messages to your to yeah, know that the j

d balances message at the munich for them and elsewhere about the lack of free speech in western europe seem to do much them me. so i'm going to remain in police and joe just cool front router and remain is electra, which it has been referred to. again, i think by j. b, j. d. but you don't have to shed values. if you're jailing people, you don't have shared values. if you can think of the actions because you don't like the result that happened in your romania, but i suppose they'll get the message. these european, the late said the, they better take the old is just as they took me, what is it blinking and biting otherwise they're in big, much bigger trouble than even would have been wielded. uh, how would it be wielded by the blink or? i think so. i mean, if you look at the new drug and sean solicitor's magnets the key, what from black rock for most of his career electronics, atlanta system is, is, you know, they extend to his bones. and so i strongly suspect that all through his talk

of your pin independence in the end he will defer to, to, to, to washington. but the other thing, of course, is that new advances remarks have been portrayed as america against your, you know, in america cutting itself off from your husband. fence is kind of tool of what firms is trying to do is position himself as the leader of a new international, conservative movement, including the ones like the pen in fronts and gonna asked in germany, that's very different from, from who don't, who genuine is not give a damn about ideology, you will europe for many other things. but this wasn't violence against you or this was vance siding with this new wing of european politics against the old european which anyways, if, when sending to which anyways in the attendance because of the sales sanctioning of the 3 is since $20.00 to $82.00. i mean,

these are all yesterday's men in effect as incredibly unpopulated, unpopular they live hugely divided populations between rich and poor. and then we get to comment like method fredrickson for denmark. thing kind of piece is more dangerous than war. i mean, a window hear about them eventually realizing they have to follow washington's orders, but that isn't what is being site. this isn't what it's been sounding like for the past. the days since the munich security summit, again in the game except for macro in washington looking like, uh, uh, like his yeah, puppy dog. i mean they, they keep saying this is dangerous, trump is wrong. the americans are wrong. and what was the germans talking about? some, here's what the americans talking against nature was the germans seeming to suggest the hand of nato and going out alone, a pariah continental west and consummate. that is the crazy thing about that is

really to really i'm sure of the americans, few and future american support. that should be a most it's, you know, to, to end the war in ukraine and reduce tension with russia. and you know, i have reminded some danish tells us that russia and no russian government, as far as i know in the whole of russian history. leslie bruton has ever claimed or threatened a single inch of danish territory mange. i'm well aware of, of course the us administration has just all exactly to monday, but so we say suggested very strongly but denmark my times over 83840000 square miles of danish territory. most of the in fact, oh, well, i mean it's not really denmark, but still, but it's just very old. i mean, you know what it is done,

but we're going to allow that trump the story to but it is grandma, i was just, i like to bring it to his birth, you know, but i mean, in a western academic, so i like to, to preston in a part for an icing fashion, about pos dependency of russia. you know, it's tied to its history and pos dependency of china and wherever. but you could hardly find a more pop dependents. a lot of them, uh, you know, the, the pin for, and security of the, to the moment they, they put themselves on a railway track of facility to russia and they seem incapable of getting upset. i mean, they will eventually, but i'm my god, it's taking a long time because they, when it'll take generations. and of course, it's not just be a leads. some polls show that a convincing numbers of population of western europe is the realm of your raise. you do believe all the propaganda and so on and to see russia as the

biggest threat to their existence. not realizing that the reason defense expenditure was lower was not because since 1991 wasn't because of the united states of paying for it. it was because they brush or pose no threat to the as well . exactly. i mean, one of the crazy things is, i mean i suppose this is also, this was sites my age. but nobody seems to remember, gorbachev will go up the mania about him and his idea of a common european home. um you know, whichever, whichever one was of july, sorry about that. of course in his late he is going to trust. i mean, he strangely criticized booted but he also mentioned that you come to the west, so betrayed that vision and roughly, i think. but of course when it comes to your pin publics, well, what can you expect? look person. i mean,

it's the bbc am the times i'm the daily tyler growth. and even they've gone to a unit and the magazines all in say exactly the same thing and the read basically getting back to from government funded. think turning, switch all unanimous on the same subject. you know, i mean, you come expect probably people to know any better. they, they all mean that's the thing. so we talk about russian misinformation of books by different parts of goals. but even if you look at britain today, um, you know, they're in a sense, there is no public debate. there is no public serious public discussion about british interests, british priorities, international realities. military reality is donovan, i'm going to really authoritarian regimes would have to work very,

very hard to create the kind of, you know, absolute media and intellectual consensus that you see. and in britain though, in spanish during this the are who i have the guts to say that other things, those are lead still one tar detained in my current. and you're going to be in prison of. and i t is bad because the fox news is banned from broke cost effectively. there's enough comb agency that prevents view points and presumably some scholars press t v from a bunch of it, they just don't allow these, they rumble in front is banned at. do you think we'll ever see a free press again in western europe as possible? what's been going on as in uh, q have and moscow when i hope so, but of course the fear is and let me know. i think you've seen this in america that,

you know, let's face it on the democratic policy and it's media or allies, you know, winton for a, you know, as, as it turned out almost totally on based uh, even a campaign of misinformation against trump is a russian agent, in the process of pools, all of this will come out of inventing material or adopting totally, you know, on base material and the schools manipulating the u. s. secret services. well now you see of course, the trunk of ministration hitting back. during the same, you know, the same, but if you're like even worse, i mean, this is my fear of quotes that the, the present order will collapse. but you will see a new from, you know, the more radically right in europe and which will then try to impose its own and

forced consensus, which will be different. but it's not necessarily better. just find the head of those days. extraordinary summit. so what, it'll just be a bunch of days any it will give you a real mood don't seem to understand the new realities. what the, what does it say about scholars, interior politics and international relations scholarship and international relations in diplomacy. in these western european capitals, will it take a generation to get people to understand the group think is the enemy of being a scholar? well, i have to say, i mean for me, this is a deeply depressing because i was as you know, which on the best and on a pulled by what's happened to westman john, listen and an academic terms. i'm a combination of the international relations, the textbook, and as far as i can see, i are as an academic subject has, has become totally useless. it's contributed nothing new value in policy terms to

the formulation of policy. but historians are very good at discussing the immensely complex reasons for the origins of the 1st. well, i'm, you know, jen, jen generally agree in that. they went complex on the old phone to room, but she wasn't on one side with the other. um, but have withdrawn, it was totally from any attempt to suggest that this might have lessons for the present to lessons of i do know the self righteousness of the present and the area start to use um for the time. but uh so yeah, well i am in a moody dispatch. maybe i hope that will corrupt itself provides rather to leave and thank you. that's it for the show you. some it's on ukraine is scheduled for thursday. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday until then keep in touch with our lot social media if it's not sensitive country and channel going under warranty, if you're not able to come to us, new and old episodes are going under grants is either

the in the 1870s, the colonial expansion of the british empire and denial valley in greece, the british decided to get complete control over sudan. however, the deeply religious people of that country did not want to obey 4 laws. the unceremonious intervention of british officials led to people's discontent. it's spokesmen was the theologians mohammed off thought. the drug blamed himself the mahdi the design. he began to gather an army against the invaders. by

1884, most of the sudanese cities were in the hands of the modern great britain decided to intervene directly. but the troops of ahmad gave the invaders at dropping. in $1885.00, the rebels to the capital car to the feet of britain was totaled only by the very end of the 19th century. after the death of ahmad, the british were able to regain their control of sudan. unable to defeat the living body. the british took revenge on the dead. what his remains were drawn out of the mazda liam, and thrown away into the nile odds had was brought to england as a trophy. however, the victory of the modest revolt became the 1st 6 as the action of the peoples of africa against the colonial oppression, and remained at dark stain on the reputation of the british empire.

the hello and welcome to across the full board. here we discussed some real in the