the nickel, 9 mozy, but at yale and that was the us and they said it was in on monday all the time after $110.00. seeing welcome to going under the broadcasting all around the world from the honda the me least this week. a defeated european union scrambles it to lead us together for an extraordinary summit to double down on the proxy war and russia through ukraine freshmen pointing trips to washington. france has been a good my cool. and then you case tom, i want to violate the russian red lines and send soldiers to die against russia after any trump row could agreement and economically suicide. all european rumble the razor. now it is isolated from the usa that boats with russia and china and the united nations. joining me again from washington, dc,

if profess rental living director of the razor program at the quincy institute for responsible state graft. thank you so much for hasn't even for coming back on with the things moving so quickly relatively, can we just establish, i mean, do you think the trump administration believes that the bible proxy would have it in the heritage on taking office signify some sort of a existential threat to the united states. trump, again, in a game, in recent to wait days, weeks since he was, you know, he rated warning of world war 3. if a piece cannot be found. but i think that's it. trump does not freak out. and several people don't the russians threat to you pray, which of course does exist as an existential threat to the united states unless the united states goes to war with russia. but then again of course of present by

and every european may so lead to send repeatedly that they would not comfortable with russia. um, so in taking that off the table um going to the trunk is not actually sacrificed anything of the the other aspect of course is that a great many people in the american establishment and within the trump administration. think that is really trying to that is the existential threat to america enough that to is greatly exaggerated about um, what is quite obviously true is the trying. there is a vastly knowledge of richer and more powerful states and therefore relatively new potential rifles the rusher is. so, from a purely rid of this point to view, it, make some sense to trying to reduce tension with russia and concentrate on china. and trump administration has basically been, you know, suggesting this is from nick some to china moment in reverse. that trump is,

is going to, in a sense, go to most go, we'll meet with with pollution. i'm drill brewton away from the russian relationship with china. yeah, i do want to get back to ukraine, but china, very quick. actually. 2 of seemingly be much colder on the plan to reduce nuclear stockpile is by 50 percent. have, do you think anyone in the trump administration quite understands what's been happening these last few years and that some nickelodeon, cleaving of badging and most coaches isn't on the cards because of the sanctions that were imposed. i mean, do they understand that that's over i think quite a long drive and there is this very foolish tool cause you know, crazy. a breach between rusher and charlie know, turning roster in some sense into a, you know, arriving with china. that's not going to happen at the same time,

but a lot of russians are worried about russian becoming too dependent on trying to vouchers . you know, one of the things that we have to offer to rusher as an incentive to make peace and ukraine and reduce its demands to you pray. the fact that you're not as long as a western sanctions and european refusal to buy russian energy remains. you know, china, reason the buyer's market as far as russian energy is concerned. and therefore, you know, has the ability to dictate the price. and, you know, the, the price, the price is being set by the chinese, i'm not favorable to russia. so, you know, i think the, there is the tons of, well, on the other hand of groups, the close, the very close russian chinese relationship does. um, you know,

bring a lot of benefits to the chinese in terms of energy security type, military technology, other things. so the unit there is the ability not to create a breach between rusher and china, but so you know, to crazes, suicide, an extra degree of distance between them. yeah, the zoom connections a bit off the washington. i don't know what the us department of government efficiency affecting zoom. what do you think the head of this your be an extraordinary summit of why on earth, the europeans or an elite group pro, run their your up at the moment. why? why they didn't have a plan b, a in case this calling the vid. ministration was ever to take office in the united states that wanted to make peace, wanted the tool and to some kind. they don't seem to have any plan be. i mean, you mentioned the energy actually your best being buying on the gray market. begin

to g from the who knows maybe even more than try to, we don't know. i mean, the sub, the cost of the war on ukraine is it was at the britain in front of germany are paying for the war on new grand. now you play as some of the policies are gonna go to well, i think the point is that for many, many decades from the united security and strategy point of view, european countries simply add source the brains to washington. and you know, not to one party or the other, but to the bi partisan us establishment and know that by pauses and establishment, just leasing to exist fluid. oh, sorry. but, you know, you worked at some of the highest levels of you certainly within the scholarly framework in, in britain and in europe as well as a, you know, within this bipartisanship. how, how, i mean, you say that just of pick up, they've just outsourced their brains to the so called the state. i mean,

why didn't they read your books? they just know like you are now. and then it printed off base and it is very old. you know, particular, i think i was, it doesn't surprise me much in germany because only this comes, i suppose, from the 2nd world war. it doesn't surprise me so much in britain because true. grace extended the, a pressure to stablish much as much with the american bar and as close as subordinate wrote, it was somewhat surprised me. the french have done this to such an extent. so, you know, they just were not thinking, they spent the unity, the 1st trump administration, basically just waiting and praying for the democrats to came to come back. they came back, they was so delighted that they subordinated themselves completely to biden's agenda and ukraine on until you know, months in some cases,

literally weeks before the last election. many of them refused to believe that trump could be re elected. and they was so frank and of that because of course they, they don't want to think seriously about, you know, having to defend themselves, draw up plans for them and security, they're just not used to it. and i mean to be fab of coal, some. well, 2 things we won as we saw with a storm and speech empowerment. this is going to take a lot more money that they don't have. they didn't want to think about that this is, you know, going to be very, very painful. but the 2nd thing is, of course, that for a whole set of reasons, they've trapped themselves with directories against russia, with the even a grotesquely overblown language about russian genocide, russians threats to europe, united cetera, etc. and you know,

it's easy enough that from a to reverse that because you know, he wasn't in power, it will be easy, i think. and to couple of years if we see a dependent government in front of the pen government to reverse it. but it's quite difficult to know for governments, which would be in screaming on top of that voices. you know about how, you know, you training must, when we must back ukraine for as long as takes a full them unit, basically to tell them on the dime. i'm change that to language, which sooner or later they're going to have to do, but it's, it is difficult except if you have an elite that is so out of touch with your own population all easily does horribly unpopular, including stories only just being elected in, in britain and you have no real education and diplomacy. i don't know. none of the norms of diplomacy built up over hundreds of years. up in uh, in western europe. uh, being applied whatsoever. it makes it dangerous for most good, doesn't it?

because as the united states may seek its own, deals with the russia. how to deal with the idea with m, i 6 will be there, the, you know, off to any disagreement. as for the nazis of the east, of you, great new to into basically lensky and will be against any uh thing that zalinski is forced design. how can they be trusted? because the drones are still there, and frankly, trump said the, you know, a few days ago weapons would still be flowing in just not more. so and uh, but we do know that the drum new drum and johns low. well, he wants to supply uh tours me so i was easy to down in kansas, but is expanding the war difficult for months ago is what it is. and, you know, there was so much talk in the west of how we comp trust the russians, and that's why you know, the ukraine must have absolute guarantees and so forth. but the funds, of course, that the russians has at least equally good reason not to trust us. given the

number of agreements that the west is broken. uh, but also because, um, you know, as a russian expert said to me recently, unit know, agreement made with us can be trusted beyond 4 years because of elections. and you know, another policy comes in and simply tags everything up. but do you kind of the, the or pins would be insane to you know, undermine a piece processing new crane, because that would infuriate trump and it really might leave the europeans like trumps as they all are undermining them. print jumps as they are undermining the base agreement as the coolest front and the britain have a un security council vito's. so the united states rush here in china conte team up and get a resolution to prevent these west and european powers that i call them the european rump of your asia from acting some sort of madman strategy. do they not realize

russia has the largest number of nuclear weapons and that they would be against policy in washington, moscow, and magic? i'm not sure that they do, frankly. i be opposed by the lack of serious strategic salt in europe. i'm. but as i say, they're just not used to is uh, you know, i mean the bushes tabs and basically so many years. and i was being used to getting its orders from washington, and in a sense it is still a bad and the orders of the last us administration. without it, it seems still fully taking account of the fact that, you know, you have a very different us administration. i mean, my theory is that this is so deeply, i mean, it was kind of genetically embedded in your pin for an insecurity establishment. like i just spend the next 4 years basically treading water. um, well,

praying that the democrats come back in 2028 a box. you know, that is give them the general situation and extremely stupid policy to follow a professor leave. it also helped me with that well, from the director of the i is your program at the quincy and city of responsible state golf evidence. frank, the if you think about russia, what does your mind picture the landscapes open up before your eyes? the 11 does, can you imagine the,

the discounts dodge the journey? the, the you ready to come along the welcome back to going undergrad. i'm still here with the director of the razor program with the quincy and since the 1st month was bankrupt, professor and it's all leaving present even at the end of when you were talking about the possibility of european the leads just treading water and waiting for trump to leave the office, do you think one thing that might concentrate their minds apart from their own electorates? of course, because they will appear elections, you must in your a. but i'll give the may change policy is if trump starts to withdrawal us basis,

say from germany which is now seems to be being discussed in the united states circles. he, he only gave a few minutes as far as i understand it to the published present. dude, when he visited washington, all the talk is of moving these tens of thousands of american troops to, to poland. do you think that will make these european leaders understand that? i know cause a lot of bases and britain as well as with with it they're going to be moved as well. that will kind of make them realize that arms control the tool. and these are the most important issues of uh, lives off times right now. well, i think, i mean if trent a new streets from germany component it won't have any effect because this will actually indicate an increase on us commitment to defend eastern europe. however, it could well be that the trump administration will make this proposal in order

then to be able to bargain this away with russia as possible, wider owns and imitation agreement. as you know, part of the whole ukraine peace process. we'll have to see the thing is that some, i mean on the one hand, i don't think that there's any chance whatsoever the, the trunk ministration will leave native old will withdrawal the main us basis for your because, you know, amongst all those things ramstein, nashville space in, in germany, in naples, naval base in the mediterranean are very important to project in american power in the mix up, sorry to interrupt goods update if the talks in riyadh inside your radio, which we know privy to happen, to mention that as a overarching security architecture discussion outside of ukraine on palestine. you think because the nuclear weapons i understand are in man stain, right?

that targeting run and yup, i'm, i don't know that, but i mean, what i'm sure is that, you know, they use at least riley government. and these really nobody would have hysteric, since they sold that america was actually withdrawing from europe. and even while the trunk is not going to listen much to european governments, he is going to listen. one seems to and that's on yahoo. up and then you know, there, there is the absolute databases and intelligence gathering based and in britain. but on the other hand, of course, i mean so a fearful oh the europeans and the germans. and of course the polls and in particular about any us with true that it would only take a raw the limits, hit us withdrawal threats of,

of withdrawal. you know, not closing down wrong starting but, but you know, between some of us troops, basically for a bucket of cold war for them and tell them, look, you better, listen, when we tell you that, you know, we, we wanted peace settlement with russia. so i think that could well be the, the approach or the trump the ministration. they all said to me in a mood to send some pretty stuff messages to you or yeah. know that the j d balances message at the munich for them and elsewhere about the lack of free speech in western europe seem to do much them and me. so i'm going to remain in police and judges school front runner and remain is electra, which it has been referred to. again, i think by j. b, j. d. but you don't have to shed values. if you're jailing people, you don't have shared values. if you can think of the actions because you don't like the result that happened in your romania, but i suppose they'll get the message. these european relates that the, they better take the old is just as they do the, what is it blinking and,

but otherwise they're in big, much bigger trouble than even would have been wielded. uh, how would it be wielded by them and blink i think so. i mean, if you look at the new john and sean solicitors, maddox, look, he, what some black crooked for most of his career electronics atlanta system is, is, you know, they extend to his bones. and so i strongly suspect that all through his to him cause your opinion dependence in the end he will defer to, to, to, to washington. the other thing, of course, is that advances remarks have been portrayed as america against your, you know, in america cutting itself off from your husband fence. his plan, the tools of what firms is trying to do is position himself as the leader of a new international conservative movement, including the ones like the pen in fronts and gonna asked in germany,

that's very different from, from who don't, who genuine is not give a damn about ideology or europe or but many other things. but this wasn't fence against you or this was vance siding with this new wing of european politics against the old european which anyways, if wouldn't center which anyways in the us. and it's because of the sell sanctioning of the 3 is since $20.00 to $82.00. i mean, these are all yesterday's men in effect as incredibly unpopulated, unpopular. they live hugely divided populations between rich and poor. and then we get a comment like method, fredrickson for denmark, thing kind of piece is more dangerous than war. i mean, a window hear about them, eventually realizing they have to follow washington's orders, but that is what is being sent. this isn't what it's been sounding like for the past. the days since the munich security summit, again in the game,

except for macro in washington looking like, uh, uh, like his yeah, poppy dog. i mean they, they keep saying this is dangerous, trump is wrong. the americans are wrong and what was the germans talking about? some is all the americans talking against nature, was the germans seeming to suggest with hand of nato and going out alone, a pariah continental wisdom. confident that is the crazy thing about that is really to really i'm sure some of the americans, few and future american support. that should be a most it's, you know, to, to end the war in ukraine and reduce tension with russia. and you know, i have reminded some danish times it is that russia and no russian government, as far as i know in the whole of russian history. leslie bruton has ever claimed or threatened a single inch of danish territory mange. i'm where as of course the us

administration has just all exactly demanded, patrice? i suggested very strongly. but denmark mice, hyundai is 83840000 square miles of danish territory. most of the impact. oh wow. i mean, it's not really denmark, but still, but it's just very old. i mean, you know what it is done, but we're going to allow that trump the story to but it is getting the right to bring it to his birth. you know, but i mean, in a western academic, so i like to, to preston him to patronize in fashion about pos dependency of russia. you know, it's tied towards history and pos dependency of china and wherever. but you could hardly find a more path, dependent lot of them. uh, you know, the, the pin for, and security of the, to the moment they, they put themselves on

a railway track of facility to russia. and they seem incapable of getting upset. i mean, they will eventually, but my goal, it's taking a long time because when it'll take generations, and of course, it's not just the leads. some polls show that a convincing numbers of population of western europe is a realm of your major. i do believe all the propaganda and so on and to see russia as the biggest threat to their existence. not realizing that the reason defense expenditure was lower was not because since the 1991 wasn't because of the united states of paying for it, it was because the russian pose no threat to the as well. exactly. i mean, one of the crazy things is, i mean, i suppose this is also this, the sites my age. but nobody seems to remember gorbachev or gold, the mania advice him and his idea of a common european home. um you know whichever,

whichever one was of july 30th and of course in his legs he is going to trust. i mean he strangely criticized pollutant. but he also bits of the come to the west so betrayed that vision and run to the i think. but of course, when it comes to your pin publics, well, what can you expect? look person. i mean, it's the bbc am the times i'm the daily tyler growth. and even the gone to a unit and the magazines all in saying exactly the same thing. and the read basically getting back to from government funded, think turn switch all unanimous on the same subject. you know, i mean, you, you come to expect probably people to know any better than they all are. and that's the thing. so we talk about russian misinformation a box by different pulse of goals. but even if you look at britain today,

um, you know, there have been, in a sense, there is no public debate. there is no public serious public discussion about british interests, british priorities, international realities, military reality is none of it. you know, it's really authoritarian regimes would have to work very, very hard to create the kind of, you know, absolute media and intellectual consensus that you see. and in britain though, in spanish during this the are who i have the guts to say, the things those are leads don't want are detained in my car, in your guns, you can present of an odd t as band of go. as the fox news is banned from broke cost, effectively, there's enough comb agency that prevents view points and presumably some scholars

press t v from a bunch of and they just don't allow these. they rumble in front is banned at. do you think we'll ever see a free press again in western europe as possible? it's been going on as in uh, q have and moscow when i hope so, but of course the fear is, and i mean, i think you've seen this in america that, you know, let's face it on the democratic policy and it's media realities, you know, winton for a, you know, as, as it turned out almost totally on base, a unit campaign of misinformation against trump is a russian agent. in the process of pools. all of this will come out of inventing material or adopting totally, you know, on based material. and this goes manipulating the us secret services. well now you

see of course, the trunk of ministration hitting back. during the same, you know, the same, but if you like, even worse. i mean, this is my fear of quotes that the, the present order will collapse. but you will see a new from, you know, the more radical rights in europe and which will then try to impose its own and forced consensus, which will be different, but not necessarily better. just finally got ahead of us these extraordinary summit . so what, it'll just be a bunch of days any it will give you a real move don't seem to understand the new realities. what the, what does it say about scholars, interior politics and international relations scholarship and international relations in diplomacy. in these western european capitals, will it take a generation to get people to understand the group think is the enemy of being

a scholar? well, i have to say, i mean for me, this is a deeply depressing because i was, as you know, to invest and on a pulled by what's happened to westman john, listen and, and academic terms. i'm a combination of the international relations, the tax buzz, and as far as i can see, i are as an academic subject has, has become totally useless. it's contributed nothing new value in policy terms to the formulation of policy. the historians are very good at discussing the immensely complex reasons for the origins of the 1st. well, i'm, you know, jen, jen generally agree in that. they went complex on the old phone to him, but she wasn't on one side with the other. i have withdrawn on was terms of from any attempt to suggest that this might have lessons for the present to lessons of i do know the self righteousness of the present and the area start to is um for the

time. but uh so yeah, we'll bring them in a move dispatch. maybe i hope that will corrupt itself professor rather to leave and thank you. that's it for the show you. some it's on ukraine is scheduled for thursday. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday. and you'll then keep in touch, i would love social media if it's not sense of new country and what channel going on. they're going to be hon dot com to let you know that isn't going on. the grounds is having the

there's no end in sight over how you're going to continue to destroy the earth. is the case of the med, most of the people. i tried to go to the gym, but i'm certainly not ready to fight russia. this is also a pursuit, this is the 3rd world lunacy re washington as well. so the funder line likes to say, we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to help me living on that. we have very close propaganda. you know a price here in new york. i think we don't know the aftermath any time that you're not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. the more questions ask the better the answer is will be no. yes. if i did it. yes. it was a chrysler that goes to is this when you talked about shift, you have no problem, go to a boy or girl was, is there and there guy, pretty busy with this machine. yeah. so i think i said that a pretty i'm pretty easy to understand too much for getting it and you have such a key.