taylo go with us, all of the the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm theater.

lavelle is the clock ticking for ukraine's former president zalinski. it certainly appears so it is hard to imagine him clinging to power after his arrogant meltdown in the oval office. can the europeans save him doubtful? maybe the ukrainian people should decide his fate. the cross talking zelinski. i'm joined by my guest, matthew crossed and in washington. he is a professor of national security and director of academic transformation at bowie state university in virginia. we have changed address. he is a former us diplomat and a former advisor to us senate republican leadership. all right, gentlemen, cross top rules and effect, that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate it. okay, i'm going to cut to the chase. jeremy, are you in virginia here? the basic question of this problem um fundamental question of this program is, uh um is that landscape finished? we seeing him exiting the stage. jim or i think the odds are very good. he'll be

gone by may 1st just throw in a number of by year here. i mean, look, as trump said to him in washington, he doesn't hold any cards. and everybody knows that's true. and europeans are still supporting him. but you know what? they don't hold any cards either. they don't have the money, they don't have the military equipment. they don't have the military production capacity. so they can talk a brave gain, but unless they somehow can get the americans back on board to back, stop them further, boots on the ground and planes in the air as mr. storm reported. they're out of luck to at this point, only of the americans and the russians matter, and they will decide what happens next. and let's get confused while we watch. i think the real question is, is whether his sponsor. ready is in c, i a or m i 6 or wherever else decide that he needs to go. maybe we'll put him on the free and then we'll put them on the per jim plan if you won't leave. well and,

and matthew, i'll all the more so, i mean, if you look at it, there's a, there's a silver lining to this. i mean, his awful behavior in the oval off is it gives a reason gives the trump administration to say, hey, we're done with this guy. okay. they didn't like him in the 1st place. he's a grifter, it is well known, and a trump has made it very clear that he does. he has no interest in furthering a war of bite and started senselessly involving the united states and a confrontational proxy war with, with russia. trump has bigger ideas, so the zalinski did him a favor, matthew to, to a certain degree. that's true. i'm always a little hesitant when we, we start replacing leaders and we're not exactly sure what it comes with. i don't know, hey the you hang on, hang on. at the end of my introduction i said maybe the ukrainian people should decide is paid. so i got, i covered all my bases that are go ahead, matthew. no, no, i know, and it's not even so much about that. it's more about i just feel rush has also been very, very adamant over the years now saying, we don't really care who's in office in tier,

right. as long as the neighborhood itself behaves the way we feel that it should and we have the greatest power in the neighborhood. and that's there is a certain amount of respect and a certain amount of acquiescence. and i don't mean that in a negative way is paid attention to the greatest power of the neighborhood. so asking could be in place and key if, as long as he sort of understood what the roles and the relationships are meant to be. and that's always been his biggest problem, you know, and tim, the, there's a, the french u. k. put a plan that there one a pass over to trump invasions, i'm quoting your temporary month long crews in the air on the seas and on energy infrastructure. and then that's when the western troops will come in. and it's not been very well explained to me, jim, is the truth. is this a unilateral truth on the part of the ukrainians or the russians supposed to be invited in the street? because owens asked them in, oh, i'll tell you they're not interested. so what is all this plus are coming out of

europe? these are all non starters, tim, as well as that they yes, exactly. uh, if, if the russians don't agree to it, and these troops enter in essentially as combatants, i don't think that's what the british and french have in mind. stormer and my problem came to washington to try to sweet talk. trump and back stopping them without which this is totally on viable, as is as large as the lensky goes, we had half a brain. he was come here, sign that stupid mineral deal, which doesn't mean much of that. he thinks it's a yes, mr. president. thank you, mr. president, hoping that he would get somehow the same kind of by end that stormer and um, a chronic, we're trying to arrange at this point. i don't know. i think they're still going to go back to the well and try to find some way to tell the americans, if you can rage a cruise to the russians, the russians say they won't settle for a see far. they only work permit settlement. but i think that's still what their head is, that that's what they're going to try to do. i don't see how it's going to work. yeah, matthew, i mean, i think is also sorry peter,

if i could just real quick jump in, is that what i've always believed? one of the biggest flaws of what happened in the oval office last week was the simple fact that when zalinski has been 3 years traveling all over the world, let alone western europe and all over the world where he has been constantly fed in lauded and praise and you can sort of buy into your own cool that you know you're drinking your own cool aid at that point. and i think he probably came to washington dc thinking, well, i'll be able to influence from despite whatever trumpet said in the past as far as what his positions are. and maybe, as james mentions the french and the english also thought they'd be able to maneuver that. but it always amazes me in this conflict overall is that certain sides of always stated very unequivocally where they stand and what they believe in . and just the other side is tempted to say, well, you don't really mean that though, right? we can, we can change that, can't we into like, no, no, you can't change that. this is what we believe. and we just refuse to, to buy into what they're telling us. and that's put us into problems for the that

they did this, the follow up of what you were say. i've been reading reports earlier today that doesn't. lensky had had been meeting with congressional democrats. and it's been suggested through this reporting that, that he take the stand that he did in the oval office. believing that that trump could be a would be a pushover. and obviously that didn't work out well, it's the democratic party that's also the problem here. matthew, wouldn't you agree if that's true and i will, if it's early with the district, if the, if that's true, i would say what that really indicates more than anything else is how much the democratic party has still not learned any lessons from the election. it just last that it's taking positions that are on tenable is say team positions that are not realistic and as a result, defeat comes from it. yeah, that's actually disappointing in tim. i mean again, if you just look at the main broad seats in, in, well legacy media,

they keep talking about a europe and peace plan, but they're not talking about peace at all. they're talking about the continuation of the conflict. and somehow, i hate using the term, but creating a back stop where the americans will come to the rescue. the europeans are not talking about peace at all. they want more, they are the, are the party of war. jim. it is at a speech that's an immediate fix, upset of the force goes in. it could not be a nature of force with an article 5 guarantee. but this is this, i think, a low dollar to democrats, but i think the europeans also want to try the trick for trump administration into approving such a back stop knowing that it would not be there to police a piece, but find some way to continue the war and get the americans involved in this war with a day to force. so i don't think was just the democrats advising a zalinski to do is, i think, was a voices from europe as well. i would say primarily from great britain, because after all kia star,

nothing sees the leader of the free world. so i think there's a bigger agenda going on here because what george st george ski is not his own man . he doesn't have much agency. he's a poppy for the people who pull his strings. the question was who pull the strings? what he met with truck. yeah. well and, and i think matthew's right he, you know, he's been drinking his own cool aid here. i've never, never be getting a push back to your under land the, the so called the president of the european commission. she says in the last few hours, europe is going to, um, she announced a $150000000000.00 euro defense a plan. matthew, where is that money going to come from? and did anybody in the european any, was anybody asked about that? okay. i mean, they're, they want a perpetual war. they want militarization of the european economy, which is in the dumps right now. that can only come from cutting social welfare programs. not a good idea, matthew, you know, and also is sort of it to an earlier point. you were mentioning peter,

who i've written about this quite extensively, and it's not a popular opinion here in america. but most of this positioning that terms of propping up ukraine militarily in this conflict, the entire 3 years never really had a possible realistic objective. a, we mean a war has been upside, russia is defeated, the war is over and ukraine wins. instead, what happens is just simply, we use ukraine as the meat grinder and we just sort of inflict damage and weak and rough as much as we can just for the sake of doing that. and that's really the only through objective and that is the one area of what i've tried to mention before. people accuse me of being a show for russia or i'm in the back pocket of food in the long side. trump is the simple fact that this is parting ukraine when you have this position because it's the, you mentioned, it's an endless fail me. it's a meat. the meat grinder is in ukraine. it's not anywhere else. so if you just continue along with no, when the people ultimately you're hurting this the ukrainians more than anyone else

. yeah, well um, essentially what the reason why they're doing this is because the crane is losing and it's losing badly at gym. and this is where we get this desperation or, i mean, you know, looking at the proclamation is coming out of europe, i caught you, i call it officially sponsored paranoia. and the russians are going to take paris any minute now, didn't you? didn't you know that, jim? well, you know, i, i, this is everything that's just been said. i think there's another institutional ingredient. look, we've seen raised for the 1st time by eli musk by a representative massy. i think a center lead from utah, the ideas of the americans might actually leave nato. and, and of course, this is something i've been, you know, calling for for years. because remember on like a treated it has to get through the said the president could pull us out by his own signature just like trump did from the i there pretty and bush did with the abm treaty. i think that terrifies them. it also terrifies the you, cause what is the you,

it's not much more than nato's concubine. so you've got people like uh they don't have a fond of lion and kaya carlos or somebody like this. i think they're terrified that at some point if the americans try to europe lose their individual european countries are gonna start looking out for their own interest rather than what these new york results are. jim is we hit the break here, may be with the us will pull out, it's back, stop as i say, the europeans would sober up and actually negotiate something. oh, come on. i know it's very inc, capable right now, but they might have to be forced. all right, i'm not, no gentleman, we're going to, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break,

we'll continue our discussion on zalinski say, without the, i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except we're such shorter. is that conflict with the 1st law show your mind. anticipation for should be very careful about our personal intelligence. at the point, obviously is to makes a trust rather than fit the job. i mean with the

artificial intelligence we have summoning the theme in the a robot must protect this phone. existence was on the 1941. the radical right wing was stone shall be nice. ation seized power and foam. the independent state of croatia, pull on 3 in a sense, what kind of a problem with a still a system of these 3. i mean one of the main targets was children. historical sources say the gosh, killed over 72000 children business it my god, they have done a roll of nose up that of course i say you were important down by may have done one of the, the up to done with general to go

a b c on that and even the germans themselves were horrified by the atrocities committed by the stash reflection of that. so there's a lot to deal with only staying now 3 months, at least our stuff to possibly be through dice. and that's, and i mean there's a little research on the welcome back across software. all things are considered i'm peter level to manage. we're discussing zalinski, the ok. now we're joined by patrick headings and in plymouth. he is the editor in founder of 21st century wired comp. welcome to the program, patrick belatedly. but welcome. and i, i don't know how much of the program you've already heard,

but i want to go right to the u. k. prime minister. he said this and the last new cycle, russia is a menace in our waters in our air space. and on our streets. obviously, he's trying to imitate churchill in some form or another very badly i would say. so patrick, you're in plymouth right now. right. right now, yes. that's okay. uh, can you look out the window, are there any rushing troops on the streets? no, i the i'm, if i, if i'm listening to the u. k. prime minister that that's the assumption that you draw patrick, i hate to disappoint you. peter, yeah there's, there's no sign at all of, of the red army, you know, patrolling the streets of plymouth. know this, and this is of the fetish size ation of, of history the, the, hitler eyes ation of the russian president. these are all problems that are emblematic of everything that has gotten europe into this mindset right now,

which is a very dangerous mindset and they can't pull themselves out, is just quite extraordinary that is curious storm or is that i think political called him the, the leader of the free world now, according to the headline this morning, and it's, it's so funny how it's kind of brought a britain back together with europe, you know, breaks it and everything. bury the hatchet. we're all together all for $11.00 for all. and this is called me, this is your own 8. 0, now this is natal without the united states. but the problem is the main card that they've been playing for the last 3 years is the threat of an article 5 trap or like a trip wire. and are they going to get that article 5 trapped with without the united states? you see, because everything hinges on that threat of the old, you know, the ultimate war that breaks out. oh,

is attack on one. is an attack on all. this is what everybody has been banding about in europe in order to poke russia and ukraine was supposed to be the ultimate trip wire, zalinski himself. so this is my mission. this is the reason for my existence is to bring ukraine into nato. and if that's not going to happen, which doesn't. yeah, but he's going to happen. yeah. but he was, he was on the casting couch and he got the job. okay. so i'm not sure if it's his mission. it was the people that hired them. a matthew, you know, we had the french president again in the last new cycle. but, you know, if we don't, and i'm paraphrasing right now, we don't stop the russians now they're going to be in mail, dove in romania. i mean, does he have any knowledge of geography? is advisors have any knowledge of geography? how are they going to get there? they're going to have to go through all of ukraine. i mean, these people are imbeciles, matthew? well, i think what's funny is how we use we don't even have to go that far back in the history. we can do just more recent history, modern history, to know the absurdity of,

of the paranoia that it would just spoken about is russia didn't do anything when the baltics joined, made it, it didn't do anything when poland joined made of it didn't do anything when hungry joined may, though it didn't do anything when jesse are joining nato. but now that they were flirting with ukraine and it always at all from the very beginning, you cream is our red line. we can't allow this for multiple and many reasons. please believe us that we're not bluffing. and we challenge the bluff obviously. but so right, you're telling me that russian is going to spend 3 years going through the meat grinder, that's ukraine. and that's their leaving pad into the earlier places that they could have jumped without any interference. it's just, it's a, it's a logical, it's a logical in a rational. so you just make sure have to ask, why do we talk that way? and i think it was mentioned earlier by a buyer, a new guest is that that feeds the panic that has its own agenda, an interest in europe, if we can make people afraid of the russians again,

the way we used to be afraid of the soviets then we can do certain things in our own, in our own neighborhood that we want to have the defense wise, militarily european power wise. yeah, well, to me, i would advise europeans to be afraid of their leaders. they're more of a threat to their life. and then then the russians are, you know, tim, it's interesting is that, you know, we've had nato, which is the european security architecture. it was designed without russia and against russia. they want to redo this all over again. they do not want to be in a position the europeans that is to negotiate with the russians. that's the fundamental error, jim. well, that's right. i mean, look at what was the original formula americans in russians out, germans down and you can write that large as europeans down. you know, we, we talked earlier about, well, well, you've prayed even people at some point decide to replace the landscape. i mean, right. i remember that the other russian demands are, do you not certification demilitarization? something's got to change and what is ever left of ukraine? and i think the same fear exists in other european capitals that the leaders,

they currently have these, these, these people who are really, i think traders their own nations. they need to read to be replaced as well to at some point the peoples of europe, whether they will, english germans differential ever need to decide that they need better leaders and the ones they have that you know, patrick. over the last few weeks i've been debating, discussing, with my guess like a yell to 2 point o and more specifically, um, uh, nicks and goes to china in reverse. i think this is, you know, this is what trump is thinking about if he can do it. i don't know. but i think that's what really motivates him. and on top of it, you know, when you have the british and the ukrainians yelling at the top of their lungs, trump remembers russia, russia, russia, they're not scoring any points with him at all. the is trump thinking big picture and i want my audience now. i have a lot of problems with a drums foreign policy,

but not on this issue. patrick or what do you say you all to, to point out peter, you know that, but i don't, i don't rage. i don't say it in a negative way. i don't think it's a dirt. oh no, no, no, it's not. it's not. but you remember you all to it was the winners of world war 2 coming together. so what trump is doing is trying to re position himself to be on the winning side. he doesn't want to go down with this disastrous proxy war. this vanity project is i'd like to call it nato's vanity project. europe's vanity project, trump wants to be on that you all to stage with vladimir putin and whoever else is sensible, insane enough to want to sit next to them to make it a you know, a try factor. so this is the other problem is europeans have scope through the language. you guys have talked about this previously, this unprovoked war or, or pollutants or of choice, the full scale invasion, full scale invasion. yeah. right. okay. there's

a reason for this and even all the troops about the budapest, memorandum, and russia invading georgia in 2008. all these things are on these watch. we're drawing heavy rotation because they want to preclude any chance of diplomacy. so they're, they're built, they've been building a narrative. that rusher can't be trusted to do diplomacy, they'll never abide by any zalinski. did it again when he started in the oval office put in as violated all the seats fires, gluten violated the minced agreements. we tried, but put in can't be trusted, that's what this is for. and then the other thing is reparations. the whole thing about ukraine being destroyed, most of the damages in russian control is going to be in russian controlled areas. they're going to be doing the reconstruction. russia is but the one that struck reparations. what, what's that? that's the $300000000.00 plus in russian assets and reserves and risk escrow and euro clear. so they're, they're making a play for that. par lang that as quote reparations and then the reparations that probably get shared amongst western europeans and perhaps america,

a black rock and whoever it's a heist is what it is. it's a k for 8 when i just add to the word patrick. same because i think there's a really great point to that isn't being talked about here in the states, at least that when it comes to you also 2 point oh and the only mixing you're going to china, really a critical element of both of those situations was that in terms of, in this case, the quote unquote adversary, russian and china were more respected like as legitimate partners on a global stage. and there are too many actors on the western side right now that are really steadfast, determined to prevent russia from having that kind of position, that it will not be allowed to have any respect on the global stage. and russia has spoken about this openly for years, is that part of this maneuvering in ukraine has been the idea that you, we will make you see us because up to now you refuse to see us. you will not listen and you won't see. so this is the only thing you're going to respond to and,

and it's just ridiculous because when you see what's going on in gaza, in the sense of the full scale invasion, just google image, gaza, and google image downtown, p of. and let me see, let me see if you can compare full scale and visions. i gotcha, that's absolutely spot on here. jamie, i could say you wanted to jump in, go ahead. yeah, yeah, just a, just to pick up. all of you said about nixon to china. and wouldn't matthew set about providing some respect to russia? i mean, look of china and, and the soviet union were all very much at odds back in the days of dixon. i think that part of the thinking of washington would be, not only can we do a reverse nixon to try to, but we can somehow drive the russians and the chinese a partner. i think that's part of one of our strategic thinking is going on. i'm sure the russians are aware of that, and that's not gonna work. so i, you know, again, i think part of the, the basis of what is a seems to be the attempt here on the part of washington is isn't going to come to fruition. yeah, patrick. yeah i,

i take it on board. what you said about the winter is that you all to absolutely brilliant observation and that's what trump is. that's what trump wants because he wants the major powers going back to a early 20th century 19th century paradigm. the only difference is the u. k is thought at the table and that's why there's so angry, they've made themselves so irrelevant. go ahead and i'll say this is the big danger right now is if the united states pulls out of ukraine or is not occupying that diplomatic and that geo political space, there's a danger that in the vacuum, someone else can slide in and cause a lot of trouble like britain, for instance, that would drag the united states back in later, after provocations against russia who's been behind all these provocations every time there's been a potential breakthrough. all of a sudden zalinski attacks targets inside mainland russia is happened time and time again or something happens. and so these provocations could really cause trouble and it could both force the us back in that to me is

a huge risk. and trump and the united states have to be very careful that they don't, uh, you know, so come to that kind of an outcome because that would be, could potentially be a disaster. that is going to cause a whole nother well face any problem in my defense. i've got a lot of push back a few weeks ago even a couple of months ago. but i said this could always escalate. and now i think this is where we are right now. the foolishness in short sightedness of the europeans. they obviously want to escalate. i hope the russians and a trump don't fall forward gentlemen. absolutely fascinating conversation, much appreciated, and that's all the time we have one to think up my guess in washington, virginia and in plymouth. and of course i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz. see you next time. remember,

cross on the the, the lordship last putting the mark, the shift of the rub for you, but i'm just, that was something you might not be up when you minus 32 for me. i should list the list, go school, but it was to retail to, to the yeah. well water is something source with me. my loan number is, you know, bo on well, pretty much. okay. good. so, so hold on the mobile one with serious why the to them for the,

for you the most of the ship. meanwhile i missed a lot of the pregnancy is or was they still little control the when they're supposed to be thing is that it's the beginning of the april tech sort of the oh, what else seemed wrong? just don't you have to shave house after kids and engagement because the trails when so many find themselves will

support. we choose to look so common ground the the pressure has become as i speak to you and for the years to come a threat to from and to europe. frances president rumps up the rhetoric against moscow in a tele, via is the address going so far as the suggest expanding par says nuclear options to determine who's in the russian brand for the remarks. gomez, washington, the 9 says it's no longer sharing intelligence with ukraine, leading to a deepening spot with brussels. it follows the white house officially holding on another tray to prove loving. there is