hello this is a question of science. i am alexey semekhav humanity peered into space

with the naked eye for millennia, then just centuries. we have widely used telescopes for decades, we use space telescopes and radio telescopes on earth and the time has been measured over the years. we have learned to understand a new channel of information gravitational waves coming from space . more recently, new data has emerged, obtained in an amazing way from a combination of gravitational and electromagnetic waves from that, how do they influence each other? friend. what is the cosmic gravitational wave background? and what does he tell us about the structure and evolution of the universe? my guest is a doctor. physics of mathematical sciences deputy director, scientific work institute of space research. russian academy of sciences corresponding member of the russian academy of sciences alexander anatolyevich lutovinov

alexander anatolyevich hello, thank you very much for taking the time to come to the studio. hello, i am very glad, as always, to be with you. anatolyevich question that we want discuss it absolutely blows my mind because the combination of two different things and we saw them talking to each other. let us give a very brief summary of what we measured, and then we will look into the details, because they are complex, rich and interesting. briefly, what did you measure? in the signals from millisecond pulsars, this rapidly rotating fuck has detected a noise component that can be

described. uh, the merger of a large number of supermassive black holes that occurred in the universe we are looking at optical on pulsars, but we are not interested in pulsars, but in the merger of all the massive black holes occurring somewhere throughout the universe . absolutely right, only we are looking at the radio range, not in the optical range. let's go in order. let's have pulsars. well, pulsars are actually, uh, one of the most mysterious objects that exist in the universe, even black holes, less mysterious black holes. there you can write in three parameters, as some say, but pulsars, nevertheless. this is truly one of the most mysterious objects in of the universe, for a number of reasons, these are, in our opinion , neutron stars. this is a neutron star. just, well, pulsar - this is because the neutron star is pulsating, rotating quickly and because of this rotation we see a signal, like a beacon. just imagine you when the lighthouse is spinning. here you are periodically.

this is what runs through the eyesight. this is directed radiation. that's all, the sun, it's small. our dwarf, yellow resident will remain for another four and a half billion years and then will slowly turn into a white stone. but if the star is big, let’s say 20 mass sun, then her life will be short but bright. yep, it's going to explode as a supernova. and here is the end of evolution. here is a star, after flares from above, a new neutron star may appear, and because of this it rotates wildly quickly. magnetic fields have colossal intensities, which is why we see them from very far away. absolutely right and there is april. the rotation period is quite stable, and the rotation periods are quite stable; moreover , on the scale of several years, the rotation period is accurate. how can we measure them? are compared to atomic clocks, so pulsars, in principle, are one of those objects that are used for the very things that we will now look further to search for these uniquely weak signals that can come from merging than supermassive black holes. wow please tell me, uh, how

do you imagine? how many pulsars? i don’t know, well, either in this study, or how many of them there are? well, you understand that not everyone shines in us, not everyone hits us with their beacon here on earth, but uh, how can i imagine the number of pulsars that i don’t know are in use by scientists, uh, pulsars were discovered quite easily and simply, just, literally there, a little over 50 years ago. that is, this is an era literally for decades. as you said , radio astronomy has been there for decades . space astronomy, pulsars were discovered in the year sixty-seven by chance and when the first signal was discovered, uh, periodically. well, even this source was called lgm somehow little green man yes , it’s so periodic that it’s as if he artificial in fact, it is too precise to be artificial. that's it for now . uh, several thousand pulsars are known. about 3,000 pulsars, catalogs, pulsor radios, include approximately this number of objects. once again, what to imagine are these 3,000 pulsars, which would be called

scattered everywhere or is it in our galaxy, they are located in our galaxy, and in a number of nearby galaxies there. we also see them, for example, in the large magellanic cloud, but this is quite sharply close, so hurray! there is enough in our galaxy. well a number of pulsars. not so little at all. well, there are some that exist. each has its own circulation period. yes, of course , an important property of pulsars is that they have so uh in their orbital periods. that is, they are like beacons that stand , which are unique in themselves, and in addition , each pulsar, as a rule, has a rather unique pulse shape, so-called, so they were turned off quite easily. well, there will be profiles. where do you get the signal from, if you are determined by what in the in it, this is a neutron star, this is determined by the combination of the magnetic field, there again this is the relationship between the axis of rotation, the angle there, a mass of other factors there, well, yes, of course, the factors that determine the so-called

radiation pattern, which determines you. as a matter of fact, the shape of the signal that you see, therefore, in principle, these pulsars differ quite well, including from each other. and this is important, they can be used for public purposes there, well, in the national economy, that is, not only for science is great for searching the universe, but also for building system navigation for future spacecraft, this is precisely this property, because they are individual. yes because they are very good. absolutely right. you know, relatively speaking, you have uh? glonass satellites, which also each have their own encoding signal for the gps trigger, and you determine the same position here based on the quality of the situation. you have a unique one. great , someone has already worried about something like glonass being scattered all over our heads, the second half history, not pulsars at all, but completely different. generally different and not in our galaxy , damn it knows the headlights. yes, uh, we, as i said, know evolution. uh, massive stars, then you can get a pulsar, you can get a black hole, if there is a star there, say

30-40 masses, the sun. you can get, and a black hole of stellar mass, let's say 10 mass, the sun 20 mason and all that, but they are out there somewhere, it turns out. we have them in our galaxy and, moreover, just about such objects. well, heavier, there are about 60 masses of the sun, these are stars, and that’s all the same gravitational waves were recorded in the fifteenth year, which the liner and detectors saw for the first time, but in the centers of galaxies, including our galaxy, there is a black hole. this is what is called supermassive. that is, the mass of which is millions and billions of masses up to billions of times greater than meat, that is, we have approximately 4 million, the mass of the sun, in the center of the black mountain there is such a small one, yes , and accordingly, there are such galaxies in the sky hmm. there are millions of them in the galaxy, in the center of which, for example, about literature spectrum x-ray gamma is a little different, it is in the x-ray range, but she should have seen about 3-4 million supermassive black holes of other galaxies, but they always sit and

that a gigantic amount is eaten, and not in the head. here, but uh they sit in themselves sit in the holachtic, but the galaxy. after all, they also move in space in the universe and such situations occur. by the way, it is believed that in several billion years. there, perhaps, andromeda will also merge with the milky way and a rather interesting roundabout carousel will begin. when you have, well, we have a lot the masses of black holes differ. what if you have two galaxies, for example, merging or flying by? bone spirit through each other, in which there are two supermassive black holes. well, such decent masses of a billion mazdas and 100 million masses of the sun, at some point they are in addition to all these interactions. there the graceful ones begin to cling to each other and begin some kind of dance, each other around each other. strictly speaking, to form a double system. they actually merge in this dance. yes, in such a dance there are such systems in the sky with double black holes of gray massive ones they are being watched, but one must understand that the time scale here is

millions of billions of years. but it seems to me incorrectly that this is a very rare event. you will now tell us what it is and measure the effect of it. that is, you want to say that this is a fairly frequent phenomenon over the past hmm 14 billion years, in fact, the universe used to be smaller and galaxies closer to each other were awarded and questions. by the way, where do you even get a supermassive black hole in the galaxy? to give birth there is conditional, when uh the universe was just there somehow, there are 700-800 million years or a billion years in total. you could very quickly bring a lot of food, a lot of food. you need to somehow create this supermassive black hole and one of the options is, when you have black holes formed, uh, well, let’s say there, well , there are a little more intermediate machines there, and they begin to intensively merge, and around such uh with black holes, some galaxies or just galaxies can form and then they begin to merge and such events, perhaps in the history of the universe there were very, very many, respectively. that's a lot of a lot of and when you have these two objects. where do

the coordination waves come from? again , the great man einstein showed that within the framework of the general theory of relativity , evolutionary waves must exist ; they exist only then you have the so -called sub-double-field moment. this is when you have, uh, massive bodies moving with acceleration , uh-huh, so, if it moves, just one evenly, but not initially. well, how to make movement with acceleration? yes it's simple dual system. why did we see it from merging black holes or then from neutron stars, then we here you have two massive two massive objects, two massive supermassive black holes rotate, and they can radiate. actually gravitational waves. they are obliged to emit them. according to shane’s theory, i understand correctly that it ’s easy to navigate those gravitational waves that we detected are not supermassive from relatively relatively light ones. there are 15 20, 30 40 mason. yes, uh, black holes, and these are the waves emitted at the last moment when in and. they are already happening now, the most

important ones, the horizon uniting, a splash of energy spilling out. a and. a. there's something different here. absolutely right. and there’s even one there. uh, there was such a factor that you can hear the sounds of black smoke pouring out, because the frequencies there are precisely the frequencies that the human ear hears, and by and large. there was a sound there. this is roughly how one could imagine how two uh ordinary black holes merge, it happens very quickly depending on what scale there is, let’s say, well, seconds are more likely, there let's say it that way. here, and here, here. and here it depends on the fact that the scales are very large, and at what distance they rotate from each other. well, that’s the average for a hospital. at what distance are two supermassive black holes in uh, ordinary merging ones is such a problem of the last park. uh, when could you make uh a supermassive black hole, and slowly bring them closer together? but further on, when they approached to a parsec,

approximately how many light years there are of us. about this distance, a then this problem arises with the last parquet, that you couldn’t scale them. there are billions of years to collide and it is believed that this is due to gravitational waves. you can try to solve this problem of the last clearing by emission. sleepy waves ensure losses. eh, here's the rotational energy, so that in the end they lose energy and then, thereby, do not get closer. yes , absolutely right, that means now, that is, the characteristic distances between them are a light year, well , more, that is, this is it, yes, and they are on this at a distance they already feel each other naturally, well, of course, not exactly how long each other has been there, as it turns out, they suddenly somehow capture each other. that’s the frequency there. why is this called a collaboration? she is a count. that is, these are nano-hertz frequencies. that is , this, well, is not humanly heard. now this means now this is the period of conversion. this is something like 10 v in

reverse. if you do, that is, my degree is there. yes, yes seconds. yes more there further yes in the tenth. yes, that is, these distances will be huge. and here they are, that is, they must radiate. these ones, in fact, they are so very long. well, that is, if you have a low frequency. you have a lot of length. well, the opposite factor. here comes the next question. is it possible that such, well, people always think about this theorist, as soon as they came up with a black hole , they started thinking about it and is it possible to see such graceful waves, the story is completely different from this rent-a-lock from playing completely different, because, well, you won’t see it on such a scale. and now it turns out people are talking about this and it’s very nice to say that it was our compatriot mikhail soot in 1978 who wrote a short article in which he proposed. as a matter of fact, uh, a method of registration. these are the kind of aviation waves that can come from supermassive black holes using observations of just millisecond pulses. sazhen suggested

using frightened pulsars to the police, for which it was determined that it would be possible to register such. it’s not like people just took a look and saw something. that is, it really is. e big and carried out very long systematic work. they are not caught by gravitational waves, they are caught. he didn't offer to catch. tectors of migration waves. he proposed the proposal of pulsars as a detector of revolutionary waves. explain, that is , you have a point. you have land, maybe there is a puzzle here, our puzzle is coming together, two parts of the story are coming together, the signal that comes here is the pulse, the signal is emitted. here he is coming towards us. if a gravitational wave passed along the road, it came to me, yes, from someone far from here. she changed the metric a little space in this place. well, it was a little crooked. and you, accordingly, will be delayed a little, uh, delayed or a little earlier, a signal will arrive, which should come from the pulsar strictly, like a clock , the pulsar signal will respond with a form or a

time delay, a time delay. yes there are time delays. yes, you must have some kind of time delay or advance. well , it doesn’t matter in tula , the time of arrival of the impulse should change in a different direction. well, it lies in dimensions, it is something small, incredibly small. here we are talking about which is not what they found. well , there is absolutely no measurement of the change in arrival time from one pulse. 67 pulsars were observed, 67 good pulsars were specially selected from those three thousand, 67 good pulsars. even the bad ones excellent excellent yes , in which they are suitable for this task and for 15 years. that is, in fact, this is not the first article. the same collaboration came out on graf, there was a five-year , nine-year catalogue. the last one was, i think, twelve years old. well, they took it, and the data set was for 12 years. it didn't look right three large instruments. and there they have, as if this signal was accumulating , accumulating, accumulating, and now they have added, and to the previous 3 years for people and added

, before that they had a set of forty. seven pulse from forty. seven pulses. now it’s not 21. yes, it’s become more than 68, they are used there. and the question is that you have to add up two factors, firstly, you have to remove all the pulsations, as we know, there are periodic signals there, everything that we remove all the noise, which exist and look at that power spectrum, which he will remain, firstly, according to the predictions of the general theory of relativity. yes. that's because you have a lot of signals, you don't have just one. you see, your entire universe will be filled with immigration waves, which will immediately begin to arrive, at each specific pulse, and i proceed from the fact that along the way, signals from it over these 8-15 years of observation, the signal was randomly subjected to the subtlest, but random, what can be extracted from here you can extract from here, if you cleaned everything correctly and removed all the useful and useless functions, as conditionally regular conditionally regular, then you should remain. uh, the so-called signal. what when we say, we are building a power spectrum, which should have a certain slope, which is known there, white noise is zero there with us. yes, he is so smooth

, there is flicker noise there, which is the only frequency. there is red noise. this is a kind of red noise. only its slope should be 13/3. this is from the prediction, here are mergers, merging supermassive black holes, here is an inclined there should be noise there 13 13, third you say an amazing thing. you are saying that the calculations that are being made for something that is extremely far out there in the universe and is located absolutely randomly here happened here did not happen. it happened here. here it happened now here then and so on, when they get to where the light is coming from the selected pulsar, they in a certain way introduce, as it would be expressed, disturbances in the nature of the signals. you can say that, right? this is probably how it can be said for a long time it is necessary to observe, because the frequencies are such frequencies of time for 15 years statistics. just statistics. you need it from you. it’s just that these signals are quite long and you need

to conduct regular monitoring of pulsars to ensure that you are not in every pulsar. you are still looking at all the pairs of pulsars, because they must still be connected to each other, because the signal, well, you know. the black hole signals it interacts with one pulsar and above. well, i mean, merging a black hole, it interacts like one pulsar so on another pulsar. therefore, if they are located close somewhere. well, the angular distance is large, then you have a mother there. even the signals must have this noise and also be correlated. if there are two pluses and the road of light it is approximately. yes, they should move, approximately to the same effect. yes , therefore there are two factors. the first should be a power spectrum, and the second - a certain curve should be a correlation and dependence on the angular distances between pulses, you know statistical methods. on the one hand, we are used to him, because there is artificial intelligence. today. this is where processing big data and extracting from it the most valuable information. it's kind of weird here. we are not talking. not about any single one-time act. i'm also talking about some averaged impact. there are two

black grills here, flying five light years away. ten here, one and a half here, and so on, and on average for some reason this gives something regular. this makes noise. yes no separate signal is currently registered. now is the first stage, as the team itself says it has won, and that’s all. they don't say that we register some object. well, so to speak of some kind of system. and if i do this, there are merging black holes, no , supermassive black holes, they say that the entire universe is filled with such noise, which can be seen in the signals of correlated pulses, the noise must have certain characteristics. and these characteristics suggest to theorists that if this is a supermassive gift, then the noise will have some form. in fact, there are other explanations for this. the same command does not reject. their. there perhaps some primary processes. there are related to the constitution of the universe, and so on, but everyone wants to see supermassive mergers.

yes, and it seems like it’s at the level of four, but you can’t say that this ending is really like that. that is, i would say this, probably there is no one to indicate, because the signal is still at the level. this is about four sigma will say so. not bad, but in order to hit yourself in the chest with your heel and talk. we saw it, probably after all, a bit too little, right i heard that they are fully aware of it and express some skepticism. they say, we have this, but of course, we can probably explain it like this. although, that's how you say it. the explanation slowly begins to converge there, and it begins to converge, that is, this is a very good indication; moreover, that is, it is important to note that several articles were published at once. that is, this collaboration is on its feet. this is from north american canadian sanctions scientists. that is, they used three or two telescopes. so one bang in reciba telescoparisiba was like this big, as it were, unfortunately, yes, yes, that ’s the use of the villa. and that means this is a 20.7, in my opinion, 25 m telescope grid. they used this there further, which means that pulsars

or the capital connected their own. this is in their park, the telescope has its own group, which we will install, you know, europe has its own and india has its own . so, it seems, it seems, that is, articles from these collaborations have also been published and they also see approximately the same thing, and it seems to confirm . and here, as i understand it, is the next step. they want to consolidate their data. here already everything and then you will succeed, firstly, it’s like every time you add a pulsar, it linearly increases you, well, the statistics with this whole thing, and time works like a square. that's great. so, uh. let's assume. uh, so optimistic with reasonable optimism that this is what we are. this is such an amazing thing. so for us , uh, we mean thanks to the pulses. they told us that the universe is filled with just this gravitational and purity, which the ear, to put it mildly, cannot hear. why is he teaching all this? what's this

speaks about the universe and our concepts of how it developed, but, for example, the number of these mergers is not estimated at all. this says, i’ll tell us this correctly, that at the moment we correctly understand how the universe works, and we correctly describe it correctly. so , i’m so karetny correctly, i will say that einstein’s theory of general relativity and , accordingly, all his conclusions, which are sufficiently confirmed. that is, we understand nature correctly enough. well, here to the extent that this is connected with this particular result. this is a very important plus. and if i understand correctly, i’m trying to conclude for myself the presence of, indeed, supermassive black holes and characteristic periods of revolution, probably, this probably affects the signal, characteristically affects the signal, and moreover, there

are even such systems . uh, well, individually people know that, for example, this system most likely consists of two, uh, supermassive black holes, they may not merge, but they rotating towards each other. there are objects in the sky that are observed there quite regularly. in the same radio range there or in optics. last year there was quite a lot of noise, but it turned out that an article by hmm chinese colleagues appeared in the archives, who even called a certain system tick tock. well, it’s so fashionable these days, this is because according to those measurements, well, the data that were, in my opinion, in the x-ray observation range. in optics. they supposedly. they saw a periodic signal like this, fading with increasing frequency, that is, they they suggested that these are two supermassive black holes that are about to merge, and, to be honest, we even conducted a series of observations of the older telescope x7, not the peacock one, on board the popsis, that is, the x-ray gamma spectrum and the american telescope. well, we continued to monitor xrt, but for some reason

we didn’t get such a signal of continuation of this periodicity. at the same time, we carried out eight more simultaneous observations at the big six. the telescope on our largest in optics and there are visible, by the way, very interesting changes in the spectral lines of evolution and so on. we are currently working on this article, most likely, after all, they say that there is some kind of dual nature there and there is a possible rotation to the calculated holes, perhaps it will not merge, as the chinese said on the scale of months or years, but there is something there, so these objects are terribly interesting. they are interested in a lot of them. they are not just double black holes in the universe, but double supermassive black holes. need to accept that among all the diversity available in the universe there are also such, i don’t know, exotic , quite amazing, powerful objects that will probably still be studied, of course, this is a huge step forward from the point of view. well

, as it were, i say both understanding and confidence that we understand correctly, just built-in nature, and in fact. this is a giant step taken by colleagues who were involved in data processing. during that time, after all, they greatly changed the situation compared, for example, to the fact that it was 5 years. they improved the algorithm tremendously. this is a very difficult task. it’s just that i sometimes thought that it was too difficult to lift, but it turns out that the human mind can solve it. still, it’s quite a powerful tool for solving such problems, and what’s more , they have now for the first time laid out, firstly, the data and secondly, they’ve laid out all the waste so that any person out there who more or less understands it. i could take it and check it, in fact , on my own, which means it’s a physical phenomenon, amazing, and the idea of ​​statistical analysis and methods. uh, and observations and observation analysis data. i thank you for this interesting story. thank you very much. best wishes. goodbye.

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