hello, this is a question of science, i’m alexey semikhatov, since primitive times, humanity has been peering into space and thinking about how it works. we now know quite a lot about the variety of phenomena that can be found in space, from possibly habitable exoplanets to super-powerful quasars, we have. an idea of ​​how all this diversity arose during the evolution of the universe, over the past year and a half, almost every day we receive new, previously inaccessible data about the structure space from the james web space telescope, which of our ideas about the structure and functioning and evolution of the universe are confirmed by these new data, and which may need to be revised.

my guest today is a candidate of physical and mathematical sciences, senior researcher at the laboratory of theoretical observational cosmology, astrospace center, lebedev physical institute , russian academy of sciences, sergei vladimirovich pilipenko, sergei vladimirovich, hello, thank you very much for taking the time to come to studio, hello. sergei vladimirovich, james web telescope, is this an epoch-making event? yes, of course, i would like to compare it, you know, very briefly with the paradigm shift that happened, well, in the 20th year of the 10th century, we suddenly learned that there is not one galaxy in the universe, but that there are at least many of them, they are terribly far away, and space is colossally large , but i don’t know, in the 60s we learned that space, the universe, is not just expanding, but

we got an idea of ​​​​what was happening in the dense hot phase, like the universe developed after the big bang, space telescopes appeared, radio astronomy appeared, and we learned a lot, a lot of things that we didn’t suspect before, now to what extent is it just new, new, new, radical, new? it has not yet become radically new, in my opinion, so far, and the james web telescope only gives potential, shows its potential to... make real breakthroughs in science, but among the results that it has already obtained, there are many very important, but i would not name any of them yet straight up super-breakthrough, and that is, you say so, all the time you have shown this, you have shown everything, scientists need to doubt this, they need to reconsider this, the web is still training, yes, it’s still just training, oh how great, let's go over what he has already done over these year and a half, well, let's start with our immediate ones.

whether we want it or not , we’ll end up wandering around the universe quite a bit, but we’ll walk across the entire universe, and as i understand it, the telescope has several different instruments and because of this it looks like close in close in our solar system, and far far away the most distant galaxies, yes, its main feature is that it observes in the infrared range, in the near and far infrared, but for different parts of the range it has different instruments. but with the same instruments he actually looks close and far , in particular, these instruments allow him to see what is not visible from the earth, for example, a water molecule, our atmosphere is full of water, therefore it is enough to study water in other bodies from the earth it’s complicated, but from outer space it’s the best thing, and in the solar system, something new about water, right? yes, he found, for example, water in some objects of the asteroid belt, for example, he recently observed a comet, in the asteroid belt - this is

a rather rare phenomenon, well , water was found there, it is very important to study water in order to understand how - water, where water came from our earth, because when the solar system was formed in the place where the earth is located, it was too hot for water to be preserved there, it came later, the question is where, and that is, thank you very much, that the earth was bombarded by bodies from the distant surrounding solar system, and we are now trying to understand how much of it is left there, and what? these were bodies, they could be bodies from the same asteroid belt, they could be from more distant regions, such as the kuiper belt or the ovart cloud, this is one of the tasks to figure out where this water comes from, okay, that means detecting water is contribution to the understanding of evolution, and the solar system, have we seen anything of what is happening now, the satellites of the planets, i don’t know the planets themselves, what he managed to see during this time and where he managed to discover something. he observed the satellites of the planets, in

particular, he again observed eruptions of water from saturn’s satellite enceladus, these eruptions. in fact, they have seen it before, the casini spacecraft flies around saturn, which perfectly took pictures of incilate with good detail, but james werb was able to see these eruptions in all their glory, that is , over a long distance and evaluate their power, in general it became clear that some of saturn's rings are formed here this water that erupts from enceladus. we move further, outside the solar system, distances are measured in light years, stars begin in the tens, then thousands of light years, and we are already on the scale of the galaxy, where is one looking?

and here he has two main objects of research, these are the areas where new stars of the planet are formed, that is, these are some kind of clouds of gas and dust that gradually condense in them, young stars appear, very interesting questions, how the interstellar medium interacts, with which something - drums waves from supernova explosions, are these shock waves capable of giving birth to new stars, due to the fact that they densify this interstellar medium, this is one of the views that the solar system could have been triggered by the explosion of some not too distant supernova , yes, it is believed that this could cause the formation of the solar system, here is james web, he observes this process directly, where, where, in different nebulae in our galaxy. you have to look close enough and he still manages to see it our universe, excuse me, our galaxy is still quite young, it continues to give birth to stars, yes, stars continue to be born with might and main, and james web can see this process at its different stages, and due to

the fact that he looks in the infrared range, it can do this more easily than other telescopes, such as the hubble telescope that observed before it or ground-based telescopes, and because it is in the infrared range, it is more transparent. these young objects are usually covered with dust; in the infrared range dust appears the gas is a little more transparent, so we see more details in these objects than we saw before, we managed to capture something like this in this process of star formation, i will allow myself this remark, the only thing is, these are instantaneous images, we can’t wait there are millions of years of evolution, here we saw this stage, here we saw this stage, here we saw this stage, really. whatever it falls on is what these moments in time in evolution fall on, what, what interesting moments from evolution, i don’t know what to call it, protostellar, protoplanetary systems, we managed to spy, well, for example, we managed to spy how jets shoot out of young stars, these are directed jets, substances

flowing out of them at high, fairly high speeds, and perhaps once upon a time there was such a jet around our sun, well, from its field who who forces the jets, who creates pressure there so that they blow in different moans, this is a complex interaction of the magnetic field, and the pressure of the gas that still remains around the star, not all the gas from which it was formed went to the formation of the star of planets, that’s still there there are around her such a dense shell, it all together creates these same jets, and as soon as the star ceases to exist? actually no, we have seen this, it’s just that james web can see it better, that is, we see these jets in stars where we have not seen them before, so now we can

study this process in more cases, moving from stars further, we caught the moments of the formation of planets in planetary systems and young stars, something about stellar. no, he didn’t look to the center of the galaxy, what else is remarkable and interesting in our galaxy, what the web looked at, or maybe is preparing to look at, probably the most remarkable thing it looks at is exoplanets, these are planets existing around other stars, more than a thousand exoplanets have now been discovered, most of them, of course, are not similar to the planets of our solar system, but there are also some systems that vaguely resemble it. this is an extremely interesting topic, because this is how we can understand whether we are alone in the universe, how many potentially habitable solar systems there are, and specifically james web was made with with the expectation that he will be able to open the atmospheres of exoplanets, and

this is what he did shortly after his launch, that is , he’s great, is this based on the spectral analysis of the planet at the moment of passage across the disk of the sun, from which the spectrum of the star is subtracted, or what? one of the methods, indeed, is when a planet passes against the background of a star , otherwise he can see the spectrum of this planet, well, yes, subtracting from it... the spectrum of the star, but this is not the only method, for example, he can observe some planets generally separate from the star, that is, if the planet is located far enough from its sun, then james web has a so-called coronagraph, which can cover a star to see only a separate planet, then its spectra can be obtained and anything, i can show a picture, here is an example of a spectrum, the exoplanet vasp 18b, which was just

was obtained by the james web telescope, in this spectrum, characteristic features are clearly visible, indicating that there is water in it, again water, and what do the dots mean, the red dots, these are lines measured by the web, i don’t know, there are radiations there, for some specific lines, this is brightness, depending on the wavelength of electromagnetic radiation, and this is simply an analysis by division by brightness, and how to read such graphs, which means that it goes up here, it goes down here, for a specialist, apparently such bursts mean something characteristic, yes, water has a characteristic spectrum of absorption and emission, and these rises and falls are located at certain wavelengths, which... are indicated in microns on the horizontal axis, and just correspond

to water, what else can it determine? and also he, as i said, it can directly observe individual planets, here is the first image of the planet obtained by james web, and the image of the star here in the lower pictures is closed, and just with the coronagraph, only the planet is visible, it is visible quite poorly, that is, on its surface nothing can be distinguished here... by and large, this is a point that is smeared into such a spot by james's optics, but from the brightness of this spot one can already draw some conclusions about the properties of this planet, we are waiting for something interesting, yes, more, well specifically on this there is no planet yet, this was again a test result, but james web will be able to detect planets from many, oh, detect atmospheres from many.

no, including terrestrial planets, that is, small rocky planets that are at different distances from their sun, including in the habitable zone, so-called, this does not mean that it will receive a signal from the little green men, but it can tell us where we have a better chance of finding a world similar to us, including with an atmosphere, and not some red-hot piece of stone, yes exactly, finally, the web looks into the distance, it looks as far as a telescope can now look, a telescope is a time machine, the further it looks in space, the earlier objects it sees, what is new, revolutionary and what is most important, these are the conversations that the web forces us to reconsider the evolution of the universe after the hot big bang, what is happening, what it discovered, what does not fit into our picture, this is where the next paradigm shift may be outlined, which is already, so to speak, on the brink.

discovery, and james web discovered galaxies at very large distances, in principle it was expected that there might be galaxies there, but he discovered a little more of them than previously thought, and these galaxies turned out to be a little heavier than previously thought, this is surprising because galaxies, in order to be observable then, had to grow in an extremely short time, less than half a billion years, right? years have passed since the big bang, and these first galaxies discovered at such distances raise the question: could this even have happened? in the usual big bang theory, but in fact the hype raised in the press on this score somewhat exaggerates , let’s say, the depth of the discrepancy between what james web discovered and what is expected, in principle, what he found so far can be explained within the framework of the existing cosmological paradigm. this is what it really destroys - this is the paradigm of the formation of the first stars and galaxies that existed before, we need

to change it, that is, we must either assume that our star formation is extremely efficient in the first millions of years of galaxy formation, or else some new processes must be taken into account, perhaps chemical ones, which we do not yet know, it seems that at this time the cosmos is structured quite simply. gravity acts in it over large distances, it is mainly filled with hydrogen, well, with a little here and there with a certain amount of helium, under these conditions we must correct our star models, it follows from observations on the web, right? yes, yes, and this is apparent simplicity, that is, hydrogen and helium - this is before the formation of the first stars, and as soon as the first massive object is formed, it cannot yet be called either a star or a galaxy, it is simply some kind of condensation, a condensation of gas, and the gas

begins to gradually become denser and at the same time thermodynamic processes that are quite complex occur in it, there is an exchange of radiation between different parts of this cloud, at some point it may become opaque, then the radiation cannot leave it, it cannot carry away heat from it, this stops further compression of the cloud, on the other hand, if next to this cloud already once the star has lit up, it irradiates it with ultraviolet light, and this immediately greatly changes the properties of the gas in this cloud, and its evolution proceeds completely differently, it may even collapse into a black hole instead of forming. it’s difficult because the system is complex, the dynamics are complex, we don’t really understand it, so we’re learning it, right? yes, we are learning, in particular it depends on the power of the computers that are used to simulate this star formation, this picture actually shows the very

objects that can destroy the paradigm formation of the first galaxies, where to look? look here at the most inconspicuous spots, which are circled in squares, and these are those very distant galaxies, since they are so distant, they are very faint and even the james web telescope sees them only at the limit of its capabilities, like these faint spots . let me ask if the definition of mass is correct then , because you said that they are too massive, too heavy to fit into the diagram, and... not as far as we are we determine the mass, and the mass can actually be determined in several ways, the simplest of which is by the brightness of the galaxy, and although it is quite rough, in general it is difficult to make a mistake in this case, yeah, that is, we know the distance from the redshift, and so thus , how long ago, how far into the past do we look, and the mass in general, thereby

the amount of light coming out, if we know the processes that go on there? yes, there are several... pitfalls here, and firstly, we may actually know red incorrectly displacement, not for all distant holaptics discovered by james web, it has still been measured accurately, that is, for many of them this is just an estimate, and secondly, the conversion of the brightness of a galaxy into its mass depends, for example, on the dust content in this galaxy, if a lot of dust has managed to form there, then it turns out dim, uh-huh, and this is one of the explanations for the discrepancy that james has just discovered. is that these are not the same galaxies that he discovered are abnormal, they are just ordinary, they just don’t have dust in them, therefore they are bright, and the galaxies that are closer, which were previously observed by the hubble telescope and thought that he saw the most distant, earliest galaxies there, they are just covered with dust, so they shine faintly, and we barely saw them,

in fact , these are galaxies as massive as those that james web found, yeah, well, that is , the idea that they are too passive for their... maybe massive beyond their years, this idea is not at all, well here it is, here it is growing before our eyes, its significance, yes, yes, yes, what else, the web forces us be nervous or, on the contrary, be happy that hurray-hurray a field for research is emerging, here further there are most likely only potentials , that is, observations are already being carried out, for example , which will make it possible to possibly solve the problem of the so-called hubble tension, this is a discrepancy between the hubble constant, which measures speed in our country , expansion of the universe , but were obtained from different data, that is, from supernova stars and galaxies, as they scatter, this is one method of measurement, the second method is based on cosmic microwave background radiation, this is the most distant radiation that we see from big bang, while our measurements were inaccurate, they overlapped each other, yes, and as soon as they became more accurate, we saw that the two methods diverged, they gave

different, different values, yes, now they diverge, and hubble for whom, which hubble? excuse me, james web for whom? and, uh, james web has not yet made his choice , but he may find the answer, since, again, he observes in the infrared range, in which dust has less influence on the radiation of those very supernovae or cyphiid stars, which are used to determine distances to distant galaxies, to measure this constant, and that is, one of the solutions to this hubble tension is that due to incorrect accounting of dust in galaxies, a subtle systematic error crept into our measurements using methods, despite the fact that, of course, everything was discussed there 20 times, but there is something unaccounted for, right?

yes, either that, or it turns out that there is no error, and this is still some kind of unusual physics, but what do you expect about the web and for you, what is generally the most unexpected and most intriguing for you from what is on what's the web hints, maybe just hints, and what are you waiting for? and the most unexpected thing is, of course, the distant ... galaxies that he found, which i already talked about, but maybe, firstly, he will find galaxies even further away, and secondly, a very important question is to understand whether there are in these galaxies there are supermassive black holes, and what fraction of the mass of the mass of stars there they make up , and because we also know that black holes are objects that do not emit anything, but they are there in the centers of all galaxies, they have colossal masses of billions of masses the sun, and now in very distant galaxies, in very distant galaxies, they are seen so massive, it is not yet clear how they are formed, how does he know that there is a black hole there, it is not visible, but according to indirect data,

that is, when matter falls onto a black hole, then this matter emits very brightly, so-called quasars are formed, very bright objects, so they are seen almost as far away as the most distant galaxies, but james web has not yet particularly looked for quasars, so if he looks quasars are suddenly on this already there will be a big problem for cosmology and a very interesting problem. how did the first black holes, and supermassive ones, form, when did they manage to eat enough matter to become so massive, collect masonic billions, and what is the mechanism of their formation? well, this is the expected result in the future, but there is no data yet, not enough. you know, it often happens that when you look. understand better what is happening here, james web looked at neighboring stars, at the stars in our galaxy,

to distant galaxies back, back in time, we, our galaxy, our solar system, this is still our region here, this is still something special, we are hidden in a place in the universe where it is quiet, calm, where the stars first formed, then no one interfered or what, in the midst of this... space , how best to assess what we are, this is where we are, where we live, where we live, and how many such suitable places are there in other places, the answer to this question has not yet been received, of course, and the development of this matter is in progress, so far the data they say that rather we live in a not very ordinary place, that is, the sun lives in a place where supernova explosions do not occur very often, perhaps because it rotates with the same one. that there are spiral arms in our galaxy, and we have not yet found very many planetary systems similar to the solar one, and we

are actually just developing a similarity criterion; in order to finally develop it, we need to understand what planetary systems are like and how they evolve , the james web telescope will help us with this. and the very last question is how he could show it. us that someone lives somewhere, could, from having their own tools, potentially, what, what the signal could be, and what it will be, and if it is, then from your point of view, what kind, let’s imagine it like this, for one of the discovered exoplanets, not necessarily discovered by james web, observation of the spectra of this planet will show the presence of water in the atmosphere, and calculation of the orbital parameters of this planet and the parameters of the star will show that the planet is at such a distance that there is water

must exist in a liquid state, and accordingly the water that is there in the atmosphere can indicate that there is water on the planet, and accordingly there may be life there, this is the maximum that we can, that is, we still need to hope for statistics that if there is a lot of this, then maybe someone somewhere will start one. in principle, yes, your, your assessment of how many such worlds he will open in 10 years, this is your feeling as a person working in this field, even if it is not scientifically substantiated, but the feeling is about five, about five in 10 years, we’ll probably look forward, wait for new discoveries that tell us how our universe functions and explain, to some extent, how we came to be here. i thank you for this interesting story, all the best, thank you very much, goodbye.

i’ve been working towards this all my life, we expect to do it in 10 days, it will be a record, cut, on the verge of possibilities, we are all with him, because he is the only one, at the maximum height, higher, don’t rise, you... you'll just fall stone down, at the speed of the wind, this is a super cyclone, a killer cyclone , it’s like it’s chasing you, what do you want, master of the wind,

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