about the reasons for the current aggravation of the conflict between israel and palestine and its possible organizers, as well as the consequences for the beneficiaries. we will talk about all this with the scientific director of the institute of extrusion of the russian academy of sciences, vitaly naumkin. vitaly vyacheslavovich, hello, thank you for taking the time, of course, now from every iron, as they say. there is a conversation about

the middle east conflict, it directly reminds me of my childhood, when we had these all-union radio repeaters on our refrigerators in the soviet union, and there was constantly hama, well, not hamas, there are beirut, arabs, israel, war and so on , so many years have passed and nothing has changed, on the contrary, the situation is only getting worse, unfortunately, how do you see the reason for the current deterioration? well, strictly speaking, there is nothing surprising here, the reason for the aggravation, in my opinion, only the lazy did not say a lot about it, it was expected, aggravation occurs periodically, this time , given that, i think, let's start with the palestinians that the palestinians have lost all hope that they will somehow...

national rights, which first of all should consist in the fact that, in accordance with the decisions of the un security council , an arab, palestinian state should be created in parallel with the jewish state, there is no hope that this state will be created, despite the fact that the palestine liberation organization, as a result of peace negotiations that had been going on for many years, but mostly unsuccessfully, agreed that only 22% of the territories would be included in this zone of an independent state, and even this did not help, and even the word occupation, which is key in this whole conflict, it has ceased to be used at all in israel, it has fallen out of use, and this is the most important thing, this is the reason that gives rise to... an escalation of the conflict from time to

time, because the occupation is becoming intolerable, now everyone is talking about the cruelty of hamas militants, yes, of course, there are cruel, unacceptable actions that we do not like, but they are caused primarily, in my opinion, by the position of israel, and there were no less cruel actions on the part of the israeli security forces, the police, the army. and the situation simply became intolerable, this is the despair that dominates among the palestinians, it led to the situation becoming so aggravated, and the hamas organization, which is actually, although it is now called there, is an increasingly large part of, say, the state, the world and first of all, israel, the united states, a terrorist organization, we generally don’t think so , it is, first of all, an organization, yes

, radical, yes, with islamic content, but i must say that with islamic content, i would say so, yes , well, she's radical, yes radical, of course islamic content, but here we can talk about this for a long time, what is radical, what is non-radical , but an occupying power that forgets that occupying powers bear a certain responsibility under international law, the occupying power bears a certain responsibility, has an obligation , vitaly vyacheslavevich , let’s clarify right away, our tv viewers will now ask the question, what kind of occupation, what are you talking about, this topic has disappeared from conversation, there is no occupation, there is a democratic israel, which is fighting for its rights, the safety of its citizens, has the right to retaliatory attacks and so on, what kind of occupation , where did it come from, why did we stop talking about it, since it disappeared from the israeli vocabulary, which is why, in

fact, this conflict has escalated , because foreign territory is occupied, there is international law, there are resolutions, but i can list them all, and 242, 338. and 1811, with which it all began, must be created, and our president just said this, you do you think that the president who said that a palestinian arab state has not yet been created and that the occupied part of the territory, which should not belong to israel, means he was mistaken? i don’t want to operate, so to speak, with the authority of the president, but in my opinion there is no specialist who does not understand that there is... occupation, many of my friends in the west believe this is exactly what it is, that it is occupation, of course, occupation, unjust occupation, that is now, that is now, and the israeli army, well, under the pretext , protecting their

citizens, restores order in the occupied territory, i understand correctly, there are not only occupied territories, but there are occupied territories and there are those that are part of others, there are, so to speak, three segments there, territory a, territory b, territory c, well again now we won’t go into cartographic details, but of course, it brings order to the occupied territory, what else, and is there an independent government there, or what? on the west bank or in the gaza strip, where 2 million people live, in total there are 7 million palestinians, and this state, which you say is democratic, some consider it a party state, some i repeat, my western colleagues, we just recently had at a conference the head of such a large, large structure,

the united states , islamic world, daniel levy, by the way, by his name, it is clear that it does not belong to the palestinians, so he directly named it, and nothing else, it is worse than occupation, because no palestinians have rights, and cruelty, right now they say that there are children there, that someone was beheaded there, i’m not sure, i know that a lot of lies are coming through channels, but in any case, regarding western lies, we know how they can stage a situation, in ukraine the butches were organized. severed heads of children, only to the anglo-saxon media, there are such reports, yes, we see bags with corpses, they are there, how can we understand all this,

on the contrary, they should say, guys, those who support them anyway, they need to be shown to other journalists, say, you see what is hamas doing, why don't they do, ask them why? they don’t, i think, because all this information is not very reliable, of course, there are excesses , of course, cruelty on both sides, and i saw dead children on the palestinian side, burned, and dead, well, i didn’t see the heads that were chopped off, but in any case, the fact is that an order has now been given to those forces that will attack, on the gas, in general, so to speak , not to take into account any orders, any... ethnic cleansing, this is ethnic cleansing, to destroy everyone, and how can you separate a hamas member from a non-hamas member, that it’s easy to destroy any palestinian, who is he, is he a hamas member, or could he be someone else? by the way, there

are organizations even more radical than hamas, there are less radical ones, there are many fronts, the palestinian resistance movement has existed from the very beginning of the conflict , for 80 years there has been a period where wars are interspersed with some periods of pauses of peace, but in general there is a tightening, especially, i repeat, i cannot say that, that there is an arab side, the palestinian side is soft and fluffy, neither in no case, in no case, but of course, the root of the conflict lies today in the tough position of the israeli government , in which there are, especially some ministers who would simply like to gather all the arabs and send them somewhere far away from the territory in which they lived for thousands of years, that’s how you look at it, vitaliyovich

, hamas called the operation flood alyaksa, and we just remember that the israeli security service, well, they just behaved boorishly in this muslim shrine, for some time back. we don’t know this, but even if this is so, they acted there extremely , extremely carelessly, so softly, let’s say, and now they say a lot that the whole conflict is going on like this, has a religious background, and we probably won’t discuss this with you yet , but nevertheless, and nevertheless, if , uh, how do you feel about this idea, and that the blind-deaf-mute intelligence services of israel, which are considered one of the best in the world, uh, became like this not by chance, and in any case, at least they didn’t report to the leadership of israel that they were preparing all the provocations, but how do you feel to this version of events?

i treat this with great humor, because it just can’t be like that, because no intelligence service operates like that, and well, the only thing i don’t agree with is that this is one of the best services in the world, because today only the lazy ones don’t they are kicking those special services that slept through the active preparation of such a powerful operation , which, well, as the palestinians say, was carried out for 2 years, from these... tunnels that were dug, moreover, taking into account the experience of vietnam, korea and japan, wherever there were tunnels, and today they are preparing a tunnel war there, and so this is the information that american channels are broadcasting today , i watched during the day, fox news just showed these tunnels, excuse me, it’s the tunnels that they say that they go up to 30 m deep there land, someone says that there are even options where there is almost up to 70, i don’t really believe in this either, you see, there is such

an exaggeration of the capabilities of the parties and the cruelty that it produces, but these are mutual cruelties, and when if in general , the root cause of the palestinian explosion is the fact that they believe that they are being discriminated against, they have absolutely no rights, they have no ability to self-govern, and... if they continue to be treated as prime minister netanyahu says today, that they are savages, someone else will he even called animals, animals, well, maybe it was translated incorrectly, we fight animals, we fight animals, you know, if they treat people like animals, and they bear responsibility for those whom they took under their occupation, so today they were deprived of electricity and water.

yes, the main thing is that they don’t really let you out anywhere, they blocked the border, well, it’s clear with israel, they’re bombing with egypt , so why not go to a press conference, they asked a question, but now the electricity has been turned off, and what about the newborns who are in these ditches, there are cuvettes , so these, you know, baths where premature babies are raised in maternity homes, right now. electricity, that’s it, they’ll all die right away, is this the fight against terrorism or what is it all about? ben, completely enraged, began to scold this poor journalist, if this journalist, well, explain that he doesn’t understand that how to fight terrorists, this is how they will fight, and the main thing is what this will lead to, they say that all these millions of people, they will destroy them, as they say, but nothing like this, there will be even greater radicalization, which will fall into even greater despair, they will, there will be a next

october war, there was in 73, now in 2023, well, i don’t know, there will probably be a next one, not so, we’ll have to wait a long time for the next war, there will definitely be resistance, there will definitely be resistance, of course there is a certain measure, a legitimate response to cruelty on the part of the israeli security forces, but i repeat that with all of all, with all my sympathy for the victims and on the israeli side, on the palestinian side, absolutely, here is a violation of the basic rights of warfare, but the root lies - in the injustice that was committed - in relation to the occupied territories, the palestinians in general, these are the people, yes, vitalislavovich, it is clear that no one would want to justify terrorism and so on, such radical methods, but you are right, without

understanding the underlying processes, it is impossible to solve the problem, it has been being solved for 80 years, well, there will soon be even more, perhaps they don’t want to solve it, there is no political will, which means it is impossible, whoever doesn’t have this will, it’s easy to solve it, the israelis first there is no queue, i say that the palestinians have their own, so to speak , problems, they are relaxed today, there are radicals who , so to speak, do not want at all... to see israelis on this territory, but basically there was a slow progress of everything- after all some kind of moderation, you know, there was the oslo agreement, what can i say, normalization with the arabs is happening, who once did not want to hear anything at all about the jewish state, about israel, yes, these are negotiations between saudi arabia and israel, about which a lot has been said, this measurement was determined by saudi arabia and iran recently with the mediation of china, russia , that is, there seemed to be silence there, suddenly hamas, then hamas came, realized

that he does not like israel, strange, yes, yes, nothing strange . we expected it all and they have been talking for a long time that this will all happen when no one knew, i agree, unexpectedly, but that such a situation will happen, it’s absolutely obvious, well, obviously, i don’t know, all the experts were trumpeting about it, everyone told us, but no , well, now there is already a palestinian problem and conflict, it has been thrown into the crosshairs of international political life, by the way, in the west the dominant point of view is that hamas was created by israel. this is of course a wrong point of view, many say that masad participated in israel, well, such there are statements, to what extent we don’t know exactly, of course not, there is an element , it’s true, an element, it certainly did not create hamas, but in the year eighty-two, when hamas appeared and was created as an organization of islamic resistance, of course, israel,

the israeli the authorities of the special services, they decided to support hamas, to oppose them to the palestine liberation organization led by yaserat, we saw it all with our own eyes, and it happens that you choose among your opponents the worst and try the best mix one with the other, so they split them, and today the palestinians are still split, of course, hamas is an authentic movement, it was born on the basis of islamic slogans and on the basis of, of course, international legal acts, decisions of the security council, but certain, certain traces of the fact that some circles from israel supported hamas in order to put an end to arafat and his structure, because it was supported by the absolute majority of the then palestinians, it was believed that this was dangerous for israel, well, if only the soviet union

supported her, and america and israel were not at least friends of the soviet union at that time. friends, of course, you are right, today the situation with israel has changed a little, but you will see that if you look at despite our generally normal, even good relations with israel, today our criticism of israel at the official and unofficial level is very large, very serious, because this is impossible, and says that we will completely wipe everyone out - from the face of the earth, if this is a ground operation of 300,000, there is an army of three hundred thousand, if they are now, like they say that the entire northern part, at least the gases, will simply be turned into a desert, and then they will start smoking out of there, blowing up these very tunnels, where

, by the way, apparently the 150 hostages that were taken are located, including americans, and even russian citizens, so then... it is unknown what, what will happen from all this, they even talk about very serious types of weapons that came from america, more serious than those that israel has, about tear gas, which may be fired in the event need for these tunnels, but here's the experience, which the vietnamese had, as well as the japanese and the koreans, when this tunnel war with america and american puppets ended in favor of the vietnamese, of course, there were jungles there, there was a powerful partisan movement, but nevertheless, when there is a tunnel war, i think that it will not end quickly, i am afraid that it will be a big , long bloodbath, and which, in general, will not bring anything by and large, and

vitali vacheslavich, by the way, the germans and romanians of our partisans in odessa also smoked and in other cities, they tried to do this, the catacombs are famous, but for a long time they could not do it, of course, there were huge casualties, nevertheless, vitalislavovich, after all, let’s speculate a little about how this conflict can be ended, at least theoretically, if we will imagine that the israeli authorities will come to their senses, conduct a punitive expedition, show everyone that they have responded and there is no need to attack anymore. yes, is there such an option, even the pope has already gotten involved today, but his representatives, they are warning israel from excessive use of force, excessive, correct. the pope, in contrast, in contrast to his position on ukraine , here he is acting absolutely correctly, this is exactly what needs to be done, no, so that there is no excessive

use of force, and most importantly, there are no these ugly, completely boorish statements of the israeli rulers about , that there, in general, everyone just needs to be destroyed, we won’t conduct any negotiations with anyone, negotiate with anyone, except not with the enemy, well, yes, they committed terrible actions, some of the militants, well, the israelis did the same thing, because it turns out, you know, a vicious circle, if you do it in place, well, in general nothing will come, there should probably be some kind of negotiations between the conflicting parties, the resumption of the peace process, probably still with some kind of participation of international actors, the international community, the un, probably that he is also responsible for the implementation of the resolutions that sarbes adopted, it must be said that he does nothing, and there is also a quartet of international mediators, which is not bad

it would be possible to restore it, it exists on paper, too, to say, there is little use from it, and first of all, this is, of course, the destructive position of the americans, who take a one-sided, unfortunately, position of supporting one side, and vitalislav, look, we are like with you the situation turns out: israel is fighting for its security, it protects its citizens, and it is allowed these things that you are talking about, and which make statements, and official statements, israeli representatives, official representatives of the authorities, which to my taste, it seems to me that nuremberg is straight, heading straight down the straight path, but, but this is a struggle of a democratic state for its rights, russia is conducting a special military operation... for its safety, does not make such statements, and most importantly, does not take such steps to destroy peaceful population, is trying in every possible way to minimize the consequences of hostilities, we are aggressors, and

they are democratic fighters, how does it happen, well , it turns out that the more you look there, the less you want to use the word democracy, i already tell you cited as an example, this is not only daniel levy, with whom we... we are friends , an english anglo-american expert, so to speak, a powerful very leader of a large movement, who simply uses the word apartheid state, that apartheid is a democracy, what kind of democracy, if there are 7 million palestinians in the world, but maybe someone lives outside the territory , outside both the palestinian authority and gaza , what rights do they have, what kind of democracy is there, maybe there should be democracy for everyone, there should be something. .. we need the security council fulfill, there should be a palestinian state, but it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work out, so i wouldn’t even talk about

democracy now, what kind of democracy is there if there is a call to simply destroy everyone, i myself listened to the same netanyahu, what if the military if they destroy some militants, then there will be no demand from them, if a person wants to catch him, he will shoot him there according to primitive laws or what? an eye for an eye, a tooth for a sub? well, if so, then it will be this vicious circle, it will continue for a long time, because the palestinians they won’t go anywhere, that these are all millions of people, they can be destroyed, or what, what... forced to remain silent, but it will all

end someday, it will all end someday. this is a terrible failure of the israeli intelligence services , the american intelligence services helping them, they missed it, how could they miss it? now now only the leninists don’t scold the government and the special services, well, that’s a rhetorical question, yes, there are a lot of questions for him on this issue, thank you very much, vitaly, we’ve run out of time, unfortunately, the topic is very big, a lot books, dissertations and so on have been written , so there is always something to discuss, thank you very much, i will remind you that we talked with the scientific director of the institute of higher education, academician of the russian academy of sciences, vitaly naumkin. well , further, about a person with a very difficult fate, like victor bud, who was a guest on our broadcast half an hour ago, the heroes of the next

report. was imprisoned in the united states on trumped-up charges and was kept in inhumane conditions. today konstantin iroshenko is 55 years old, 12 of which he has already spent in prison. how does he live and what is he doing now? alexey petrov will talk about this. last april, he was the only russian journalist who met yeroshenko in his homeland. the festive table in the iroshenko family, the tea has boiled, the cake can be cut. how are you in moscow, i already feel at home, but i’m not yet, now konstantin works in the management of a large russian airline, is a member of the public chamber, and the main thing for him is the revival of the domestic aviation industry, namely to raise our aviation industry, namely our aircraft, so that they are produced in large quantities, that the enemy was always imported equipment, we simply no choice. in 2010, american intelligence services actually kidnapped konstantin iroshenko from liberia in violation of all possible laws

and conventions, and a year later... an american court sentenced him to twenty years in prison, then there were interrogations, beatings, endless psychological pressure, there are guys there too of course, there are bad ones, there are also good ones, there are normal ones, there are also a lot of people in america, and not the law of the land , there are also a lot of people, a lot of people, because they have such a system, the american prison - what is it, this is a business on blood, everything has to be bought there, it all costs very much, very expensive, in april last year the pilot was exchanged for a us citizen, trevor reed, here is the very moment of the exchange in turkey, entering the plane, eroshenko wipes away tears, shows marks from handcuffs on his hands and feet, years of abuse. at these moments, my wife and daughter were already waiting with us for the arrival of the special flight to vnukovo. my father taught me a lot, strength of spirit, perseverance, and the ability to achieve my goals and never give up. of course it's me,

when i heard that he had already been exchanged, i was done, the stone that i had been carrying for 12 years just fell from me, that is, his release, the release of our entire family, the first minutes of freedom, footage that touched the whole country, eroshenko in some the moment the plane that brought him to his homeland even crossed himself, did you realize for yourself that you were finally in your homeland, free at home? only now, when i saw my wife and daughter, it’s a pity that my mother hasn’t waited for me yet, only now i understand that i’m finally back home, almost a year and a half of new life has passed since that moment, now of course i worry about him all the time, here he is in zhukovsky , i constantly call him, where are you, where are you, where are you, i’m twitching, well, probably this one my fear has not yet gone away that i don’t know where he is, over the past year and a half they

have traveled a lot, in the family photo album of st. petersburg, belarus, lugansk, pictures from the victory parade on red square. the old tradition of bringing refrigerator magnets from trips has also been revived, in rostov the refrigerator is completely covered on three sides, but here it’s like a new life has begun for us. there is also a photograph of gagarin on the refrigerator. this magnet was bought when konstantin was still in an american prison. we were somewhere, i don’t remember somewhere with katya, katya said, let’s buy something for dad, well, we bought it and hung it on the refrigerator, he waited. here now, in addition to working at the airline and social activities, konstantin eroshenko is busy with one more thing, he is writing a book: it should be published at the very soon. alexey petrov, elena fenoshina and victor vinogradov. with this, i, alexander karievsky, say goodbye to you, all the best to you, but after a short advertisement, our program will continue to be broadcast by the duty department.

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