>> i always do -- a hundred thousand is a rough number. >> [inaudible]. >> really, there's are you talking about taking over an existing situation or installation. >> what is a typical cost on hood and duct. >> a 20 foot hood over 2-3 stores much the hood is not expensive it's getting the duct up and out like laurence was saying. it's not just the duct it's the amount of space and would burglar the fire rated cavity or the fire rated blanketing system takes up a lot of room and adds huge amounts of cost. getting the duct. i have never broken it down by floor by cost but looking at it

that route 10-20 thousand dollars per floor would be the cost. the hood itself another 20. then you have the fire systems. there are so many components. >> that sounds right to me. these kinds of converters would add, that's an incremental increase. >> right. >> just the smog hog the unit to get it delivered to our shop is 50 thousand dollars. >> the number for the bay area area quality management district. 771-6000. or 749-4762. and talk to them. but also i want to give you another number. this is their complaint number. they have an actual number where people call complaints in that's; 1-800-334-odor.

[laughter]. that's -- i don't know. >> really you don't want to, okay. we had a question in the front and we will move to the back. >> i wondered about what the typical lifetime is for one of the hoods and ducts [inaudible] >> the question was, what is the typical life span for a hood and duct system. i've seen many that are decades and decades old. there's no reason that they should be out of date or -- there are maintenance items required. there is an interesting question that arises as to life expectancy. people ask all the time, is my building safe? i say it was safe in accordance with the rules at the time it was built. it was built in 1909 it meets

all of the 1909 codes so it's safe according to those rules. the same with hood and duct systems and anything else it would have been compliant at the time of it's construction. and there is nothing retroactive that says have you to go back and make changes to it. there is, however, for restaurants that are assembly occupancies the first big separations in restaurants in the building code where you have 50 or more people in you were restaurant it's an assembly occupancy it's no longer just a business. assembly occupancies have a survey done by the fire department. what they look for is that the fire extinguishing system has their tag on it. my experience has been that there is no real lifetime to

these things. >> only time we have come up in replacing when you have an out door section that may have rusted. and for sure having them cleaned out. the grease will build up inside. that's a safety factor for yourself. >> and keep the hoods and ducts clean. they all have -- the hoods have a gutter that run around to collect grease and that should be cleaned and the screens that need to be cleaned. they are required to have clean out doors in the ducts so you can get up and clean them. >> if you buy an existing restaurant that's code compliant at the time and you do remodeling and upgrading? >> no you are not subject to upgrading there is no retroactive upgrade requirement. often people will chose to do so but there is no upgrading

requirement. the same is true for when a building or house is sold the new owner takes the existing condition. we don't have inspection at sale. yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible]. >> okay. the mechanical code has a section in it called vent termination. which says it shall terminate above the roof. so, but all of our codes mechanical, building, fire, all of the codes have a provision in them that says equivalents are acceptable. so, we would accept that as a legal equivalent if we feel it

meets all requirements. if public works is happy we kep will accept that. >> are there fire rated [inaudible] available. >> all of these are fire have to be fire rated and they have to be enclosed in a fire rated shaft and fire protected. >> say we can't provide a fire rated [inaudible] outside the [inaudible] can you purchase? >> okay much the question is, is there a way to provide fire rating around the duct itself? there have been developed a number of products that will do that. you have seen them. >> 3m fire wrap. what the old standard was that you have the metal dubt and you would have a gap of air about 3

inches and a couple of layers of sheet rock. what's more efficient but not cheap is fire wrap a product from 3m it's like a thick blanket. a lot of times if you have a large duct run you have a shaft you go down because you don't want to see it from the rest of the building you put the fire wrap down and go down the duct. >> the stuff is mechanically fast and clipod it's not taped. it's a listed product. listed product, equipment used for commercial purposes has to be testing like a testing agency like ul. has to be listed by an approved listing agency. ul and inter~ national association of plumbing and mechanical officials has a listing agency, has to be tested

to the american national standards and tests and approved and the approval come from the city. when you put in one of these ducts with the wrap system, we and the city will say, is it tested according to a national standard? is it listed by a nationally approves listing agency and if it is we will approve that for use. but the system of testing this and approval leaves the final word up to the local building or fire official to approve. >> is it installed by a licensed. >> has to be installed in accordance in the terms of it's listing by someone familiar of how it should be done. >> we have another question? >> [inaudible]. getting back to the no retroactivity. [inaudible]. >> excellent. okay.

ada. >> always a good time to talk about disability act it's such an enormous issue in restaurant and commercial businesses. first of all it's one of the highest priorities in the city. in the building department and other departments and the reason is because it transsends the concept of public safety into human rights. and individual liberty. and so the ada the americans with disability act is enforced by your local building department and the department of justice but way beyond the building code. we have been taking it to be our highest priority and i completely agree. there are 2 basics set of laws one the americans with

disability act and the federal guidelines that sprang from those acts. those guidelines are generally in conformance with the second set, which is the california title 24, which is the state building code disability access regulations. the disability access regulations for existing buildings are found in the california building code and in your hand out on page 5 and 6. and this is directly out of the california building code chapter 11 b. section 1134 b, which talks about how one must provide disabled access to an existing building. for a new building, all elements of disabled access have to be provided in accordance with the code from beginning to ends there are no exceptions allowed.

for an existing building there are exceptions and alternatives. i will briefly go through them but your specific question is is retroactivity triggered. disabled access at the federal level uppered the ada is triggered both by construction work you may be doing and also by something called readily achievable standards, this is the federal standard. if something even if you are not doing work, if you have a business you should be meeting what are called readily achieved bearial removal standards. if you can replace a door knob with lever hardware it's easy and cheap. you can do it quickly. that's the sort of thing you should be planning on doing. if you can put in grab bars in the bathroom even though you

have no replaced all the doors at least someone with arthritis has somebody to grab on to that's readily achievable. there is also an issue under the federal standard called reasonable accommodation and the state law contains similar language. that means if you hire an employee or if someone is a patron and asking for assistance to do their job or to be served you have the responsibility to make whatever is a reasonable accommodation to their needs. employee, you don't have to make every work station in a restaurant and handicap assessable if somebody wants to work at that work station the work station has to be adapted to their needs. under the state standard, there are 3 things. i think. i will go through them that

trigger disabled access. structural repairs. additions and alternatatio alte. structural repairs, additions and alterations. so, the question was, if i buy somebody's existing restaurant is there anything that would trigger me to upgrade to ada? if you are not doing any structural repairs this is not nonstructural repair you can change the carpet. if you are not doing an addition or altering anything, changing the carpet is not an alteration then, no, there is nothing that would trigger disabled access. however, there are so few case i know of where someone has taken

over a restaurant or bought a place without doing anything that usually you are doing an ateration work. you do structurural repair usually there is alteration work. how much disabled access do you have to do? if you turn to page 5 in your hand out. i here the paper, you will see that in the middle column are my hand written notes it says 2007 is 116 thousand dollars. if the cost of your remodel work excluding the disabled access work, is less than 116 thousand dollars then all you have to do is spend 20 percent of the cost of that remodel work toward making the building more

accessible. and how do you spend that 20 percent? there is a list on the left. exceptions number one. you read through all that stuff. it says 20 percent and the order in which you must spend your 20 percent. so, if you had a hundred thousand dollars remodel you spent the first on an accessible entrance. you would have to replace your front door or new door hardware so people can get in. this is the priority list. number 2, route to the area. you remodel the bar area the route of path of travel to the bar area has to be accessible. 3, one accessible restroom for each sex. you can use uni~ sex restrooms.

>> i can't find where you are? >> okay. page 5 on the left there's right in the middle of the page. >> thank you. on the left i was on the right. >> okay. >> sure. so onr one accessible restroom for each sex. if we have not run out of the 20 thousand dollars we would then go to accessible phones. they are talking about public phones not phones serving the restaurant. there is no cost to that the phone company will come for free and pet in the hearing ampliifiyers and adjust the height of the phone and accessible drinking fountains and when possible additional accessible elements such as parking storage and alarms. in order to qualify to use this 20 percent rule, you have to

submit to the building department a form we have about unreasonable hardship request and document what the cost is show how you will spend your 20 percent that should be reflected in the plans you submit and an inspector will check it. if's over 116 thousand dollars then everything has to comply according to the regular code. there are exceptions. that's sort of the global picture of the disabled access. restaurants eshg specially are sensitive because they have been the target of many lawsuits for accessibility for entrances and restrooms. not too many about employee work spaces. >> [inaudible]. >> no.

if you are over 116 thousand dollars this little exception we are reading that exception would not longer apply. you would have to go back to let's see -- look at section 1134 b.2 general on the top left second paragraph. it says all existing buildings and facilities when alterations or repairs are made shall comply with all provisions of division one new buildings except as modified by this division and the modification is the part that says where you are less than 116 thousand dollars you get the exception. basically it sends you back to the regular code for new buildings. there a few other exceptions which are technical and in the building department we will be

happy to help talk with you about it. we have a lot of people who spend a lot of time and money trying to figure out how to meet disabled access requirements. we will help you. >> yeah. >> [inaudible]. when you are over 116,000 you are required to [inaudible] is that for the scope of the entire restaurant or the scope of the alterations you are making to the restaurant. if you have a large restaurant and you are remodeling half. you ada the whole space? >> just the work you are doing has to comply. the work you are doing always has to comply. if you are bldzing a new restroom the new restroom should be accessible. if necessary under these laws. then it's just that area. the path of travel to the area

must comply. the restroom must comply and drinking fountain and phone and everything that relates to the business that relates to that area. you don't have to go to the second floor and do that part. >> [inaudible]. >> right. they are in division 1 and 2, the other sections of the code where it has the details of that. and we can give you copies, anybody needs it. you have my card give me a ring. >> laurence, the building department put together an informational quick sheet guide. it's 11 by 17 and gives a great many examples of clearances through bathrooms, entrances,

work spaces is and counters. we have a hand out. this so called quick sheet which provides a lot of that information. >> do we get that here today. >> go to dbi and get it or call me and i will send you a copy. >> called quick sheet? >> quick sheet. >> you have a uni~ sex bathroom? >> okay. >> what about transgender? >> good question. restrooms can you have uni~ sex restrooms? how does the city transgender law role in to whether you need separate restrooms. a lot of restaurants in the city do have uni~ sex restrooms much the important thing from the building department's view is we have a sufficient number of facilities. that number is found in a table in the building code. table 829 a.

i have a copy here. basically have you to have a sufficient number. the building code specifically says that if you have 4 or fewer employees, regardless and there are not more than 49 occupants in the restaurant you can have a single uni~ sex restroom serving the facility. that's in chapter 29. typically restaurants need separate sex restrooms or figure out how many they need. once they are developed, we actually the policy is a little fuzzy. we don't care how you mark them as long as they are disabled and there are enough of them. and i have been trying for 4-5 years to get the transgender ordinance to be conformed to the

building code table for restrooms. there is a lot of resistance from old time people who do public works and public services who say, we don't want to have restrooms open to uni~ sex. we want separate. if you go to a lot of restaurants they have separate stalls that are private but a shared lavatory area. it complies with the specific requirements, i believe. but a lot of people are not happy with that. i think we could approve it but there are issues. without getting into the whole thing. i think over the next year i hope we resolve it. i'm work width transgender law center to satisfy the needs. it's a tough problem. can you have uni~ sex? there are a couple of things in

the code that say, yes. one is the section i think you have it right here. >> hang on one second. look on page 6. in the top left. the third paragraph says, where it is technically infeasible in the area of an alteration to make restrooms cocompliant and install separate facilities for each sex you need at least one uni~ sex per floor being altered permitted. there is an allowance where it 3ú'm technically infeasible. there is another similar exception in the california state historic building code. i'm going to talk a little bit

about historic building code. karl knows about that. i enforce it on behalf of building inspection. this is an important code for you rerotsdzing in older building. any building 50 years or older may qualify to use the california historic building code. the merit is determined by the building and planning departments working together. it's a fairly low level. have you to be a landmark or certified to have anything. it's a building which may at some point may be deemed to have significance. it's quite a low level to use the state historical building code. if you qualify, then there is a raft of alternatives that help you. for example, there is the

preferred alternatives for disabled access. you need a door that's at least 32 inches wide. 36 at the main entry. you can get it down to 30. it allows you to have a 29 and a half inch main door if necessary. if you have a ramp you have have a steeper ramp in an historic building. it says you need at least one toilet facility that can be a uni~ sex facility. that's only if the creation of more than one would be somehow disrupting the historic fabric of the building. you have to show that somehow you can't do it or you would impact the historic fabric of the building. in many cases we use it from front doors and facades of older buildings where we are trying to preserve store fronts especially

in china town with the wooden store fronts. but it it is allow uni~ sex toilet facilities. there a few other things, it does not use of that a lighthoullowsñi you an exemption for the california energy code. which is a difficult code to meet where you do substantial remodel. there are structurural provisions and others in a historic building. yes , sir. >> [inaudible].

>> actually -- let's repeat the question for the televised. >> it's when folks step in in your the question was, when you buy an existing business or you are signing a lease you will turn to a restaurant it was not previously a restaurant. are there times when you sign on and you find out later that it's

completely a different animal than you were expecting. costs are completely different. yes, that's a big, yes. there are heorror stories out there. we are brought in to help a gentlemen out who signed on for a national franchise much the national franchise has a basic construction cost. they handed out what it will be per square foot. the franchisee who bought the rights to the san francisco area one signed a 10 year lease with 25's and paid for the franchise in advanced. he did 250 percent of the expected construction costs would be. he did not get terms in his lease for venting or purpose gas being brought up to that level and electric. he ended up folding. he walked