yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible]. >> permits necessary for operation. i think in the question is do they have to be renewed yearly? the business license is annual. >> a health code operator permit is yearly and you will have yearly inspections. >> the fire department is an annual. entertainment, you have to renew. sidewalk occupancy do you have to renew that every year? pardon me? every year. okay. >> why don't you use the mic. we can't hear you back here. >> hello. you hear me? right into the mic. yeah, a lot of times commercial spaces what we find out people get a lease and apply for

permits and there might be an issue with accessibility issues. i seen some people lose their lease because they can't meet their requirements. >> that's a good point that the disabled access issues where the interface of the sidewalk hits the front of the building, you have to have a front door with a level landing outside. however, the building code allows you an alternative with you have the power door buttons. if you have one you don't need to have a level landing you can have a slopped sidewalk up to the door. and if you have that you don't neat the strike side clearance. if you have a button you don't have to worry about the door opening pressure which is strictly regulated. the power door operators. everybody likes them much the disabled community likes them and they resolve problems at the

interface between sidewalk and building. yes, ma'am. >> i have a cookie question, do you know where we can buy those. >> where can one buy the power door operators. >> the power door operators come from a glazing contractor. they install the doors. any time we purchase them. they are cost effective. they sound like a big deal they are not. they take normal line voltage it's a big closer on the door. like a 15 thousand dollars item. >> 15 thousand dollars item. >> roughly. that's a lot of times so much cheaper than making a ramp or level landing and changing doors out and getting strike side clearance. >> does that include contractor fees. >> that's a single installation. >> okay.

>> yeah. >> okay. thank you. >> i heard some that are less. that's the scope. >> the electrical and the carpenter. the permits. >> yeah. >> where were we. sidewalks. that was the department of public works saying, pay attention to the sidewalk issues. sidewalk occupancy -- okay before i get into what level of plans we have charlie salter who is an a kucoustical expert. he's worked on so many a kouftal issues in san francisco for clubs and adjoining building and he was an expert witness when we

were sued in a lawsuit against cable car noise. i mentioned there were 4 noise impacts dou agree with that categorization? >> i expanded laurences list he has in his hand out. is everybody familiar with the hand out page 3 item f under noise issues? so i was just going to cover the area of restaurant acoustics from my experience in san francisco. i have been working on restaurant projects in san francisco for 35 years. i have been involved in 150 different projects. breaking restaurant acoustics into various categories we have noise in the dining area itself. that's a subjective issue. it's not somebody the building department has standards for. some restaurants want it to be quiet so their patrons can carry

on conversations. other restaurants want to be purposefully noisy so the customers come in and leave they don't want the customers to linger so they are noisy. and there are others where the restaurant thank yous it adds to the spark of the restaurant to have it be noisy and make it noisy. sometimes these restaurants need to be retrofitted because so many customers complain. i had one restaurant who had the following perspective about restaurant noise. he said to me, that every day he had one or more custody mers walk up and complain about the noise and explain that that customer would never come back much the restaurant owner being a veteran said that for every

customer in my restaurant that complains there are 10 who don't complain but will never come back because of noise. he found it necessary to retrofit to make it quiet because of noise of overwhelming. in addition to this dining area noise, we have noise in the kitchen. and so in the kitchen you have chefs who want to carry on conversations with their staff and to the extent the kitchen is noisy they can't communicate. you have hearing damage risk considerations as laurence listed on the issue. there are some restaurant kitchens that are so noisy that there is concern about hearing loss. and as you may know in the state of california and the united states there are hearing loss limitations and to the extent

that because of noise exposure people's hearing is damaged. there is a compensatable cost involved with that. then you have the issue of waitresses and waiters not hearing what the customers are saying because it's so noisy they can't get the order right. independent of the issues i mentioned so far, we have noise transfer to the neighbors. and so we have the airborne noise of activity in the restaurant. people talking. bothering neighbored. if you are residential or commercial neighbor of a restaurant, you don't want to sit in your office or home and hearing the activity noise. you would like it to be [inaudible]. there is a good chance you will complain or sue because it's hurting your business or home

life. and so then we have mechanical equipment noise. now, the city of san francisco has a noise ordinance that laurence has kindly copied in the back of the hand out. and this noise ordinance was start 35 years ago and out moded and ambiguous. it's my perception when the police and the public health department have to invoke this noise ordinance, they really don't follow the guidelines as is written. i would be glad to explain that in detail if anybody cares to hear more about that. i understand the city of san francisco knows their noise ordinance needs to be modernized and made clearer.

they are working on it. they are working on it. so, one of these days we may have something that's a little more straight ford. we have mechanic cal vibration. you have the kitchen, exhaust fan, equipment on buildings, people feeling vibration and complaining about that little vibration even though it's not a part of the noise ordinance. but it is an issue in terms of developing i restaurant. and so as laurence and i were discussing a couple of days ago, one idea for a restaurant owner or may be the building department to think about is as a part of the design process, be as a part of the contracting with mechanical contractor who will be tasked in doing it right

the first time. why not have an acoustical review to make sure you don't have problems. because retrofitting this equipment after the fact can be very, very difficult. and the litigation that can ensue as a result of people suing the neighbor can take many years. and so the restaurants in the middle and so if it's just something that is clarified as a part of the design and the specification and the contract with the contractors with respect to meeting the airborne limit and controlling the vibration, that seems to me to be an adroit approach. in san francisco it's handled on a complaint basis. other cities they require an acoustical analysis prior to

permitting to avoid the impact on the neighbors as a result of accessive noise and vibration. we have the independent topic of music noise transfer handled by the entertainment commission. so, the entertainment commission basically uses a sound level limit for bothering neighbors. 5 decibels above the ambient as written in the noise ordinance. clearly to the extent people hear music it can be annoying they will complain. it's a matter of balancing the needs of the neighbors with the needs of the people wanting to entertainment. then, this is my experience not speaking as a lawyer but i have seen this invoked.

you have the alcoholic beverage commission which is a state organization. a lot of times they have as their standard inaudibility for music noise. they is take away liquor licenses as a result of oddable music noise transfer. and my experience is the alcoholic beverage commission looks at it on a case by case basis based on complaints and based on their experience in the neighborhood et cetera. i will stop now and answer any questions anybody might have. >> i have seen some of these retrofits with extraordinarily expensive as they put in acoustical ceiling material.

dealing with it up front is cheap and easy and later is expensive. we had a question back here. >> [inaudible]. have you come across any cases or experiences where [inaudible] where a customer is hard of hearing and goes into a restaurant that's so noisy [inaudible]. >> so the question was, have you heard of ada complaint related cases? >> i have not. ada was fundamental in getti acoustical standards for school using teachers and students that are hard of hearing are required to have a fit environment. because of ada we now have acoustical standards for schools. i'm not aware of the same argument being made in

restaurants. one. saddest experiences i had is when you have a noisy dining facility in a rest home or old aged home. what's sad about those situations is that people are forced to have meal there 3 times a day. we can go to a restaurant have a bad experience and never go there again. these people dine there 3 times a day. i have been told by these facilities that to a great extent these people in the homes the highlight of their day is seeing their friends. talking to their friends at a meal. to the extent they can't carry on a conversation because it's so noisy it can have a profound affect on these people. that is one of the most point iant acoustical aspect for

dining i have seen. i had the bad experiences in san francisco where the architect and the developer of the dining facilities didn't think about acoustics. >> sure, please. >> i represents a number of clubs in san francisco that have pretty much close to they were all almost shut down because of neighbor complaints. one thing i want to say about that once you are in operation don't ignore it, it doesn't go away. address it. it can be as simple as calling somebody in to go over to the neighbor's home, to measure the noise levels find out what's acceptable for them and go back to your place and put a limiter on some of your sound equipment. the problem will compound, we

had some cases where clubs almost lost their entertainment licenses over it. so, if you do get a complaint, address it, try to work it out first. and then you know call some of the city departments in to help you. we did a big club owner in san francisco almost lost their ability to operate. we did something as simple as putting a hot line in from the d. j. booth to the residents as soon as there was a complaint they call indeed and turned it down and control today. so you know very important to act on that if there ever is a complaint. >> not to deny it. you can't say, no, that's not a promise, you are wrong. >> address it. >> right. >> yes, ma'am. >> i didn't get your name and title.

>> i'm louise dawson, the lead restaurant consultant for the san francisco small business development center. >> lead restaurant consultant for the small business development center. the free resource girl. [laughter]. >> yes , sir. >> [inaudible]. >> there are and charlie can speak to that. >> there are minimum code requirements. state building code. but then you need to pay attention to complaints. what we do in mixed use project system we specify that commercial tenants have to

submit their plans for ventilation, plumbing equipment attached to the residential ceiling construction above. as part of the leasing provision to avoid problems because as i say, once you have the restaurant or other type of establishment below the residents they can care less about the residents. they are doing business and the people upstairs are annoyed by the noise vibration. so, the mixed use developer is interested in having it be a lease arrangement rather than something that's over looked. and they get stuck with this continuous problem. >> building code is strict in california 74, i think that california building code required acoustical separation between dwelling units and

common areas or parking or hallways or other uses in buildings. and also restricting noise from outside in the street to where people are living and sleeping. we are still trying to figure out how to enforce this it's ens r expensive to enforce but has been in the code for many, many years. >> several examples laurence mentioned before and charles, we worked with his company on multiple projects, after the fact is extremely expensive not only in construction but because you are shutting down our business. it's not just residents but someone had a yoga studio and someone had a law firm. they were great. the club or the lounge part of the restaurant would turn on at 5 or 6 o'clock. it's commercial and everybody it ends up a lot of times have you to build a physical separate ceiling to lock it off.

you would be shocked how sound travels. through pipes and electrical and up the wall. get an expert in for a few hours of advice ahead of time is so much cheaper. >> sure, go ahead. >> just on that note, california real estate law dictates if you are a tenant or owner you have the right to quiet and peaceful enjoyment. going back to don't ignore a complaint. get on it. try to mediate it. try to find a way to coexist. take control of the situation. it's very important. >> okay. i will continue along here. stay up here there might be questions. what time are we supposed to be done here? 11 something. >> 11:30, okay. i will talk about the kinds of

plans you need to submit to the building department. first let me say, we will, don't give us too much. okay. we will look at whatever you give us. the more you give us the more we will look at. [laughter]. don't give us too much. it's a common problem. people gives a okay, that's anything i will study their poem and finishing details. this is interesting or at the acoustical stuff is not required you may wish to include it but if you put it in there i will give it a good study. give us what is necessary to look at. what are the things we need to look at? plans needs a lot they need to see the location, the adjoins uses and often want to see paragraphs atached to the plans of the building facade. you should call the planning counter 558-6377 and ask them

exactly what they would like to see for your submittal. the building department almost always you will have an architect, i hope, preparing this. there is no such thing in california as an unlicensed architect. >> okay. there is no such thing. i have an architect that he's not licensed. there is no such thing. an unlicensed engineer, there is no such thing. they are people, a guy on the street. you are a licensed professional or you are not. most plans for commercial work are prepared and can signed and stamped by a licensed engineer or architect. they know what's required. they know the ada riefrmeequire and the mechanical requirements and all include a layout, a clear designation of the use of every area. something that is often over looked. and based on that clear designation we can calculate an

occupant load. the occupant load determines whether you are 49 or less a b or 50 or more and are an a opposite. it has nothing to do with how much people you want to put in your restaurant. it has to do with how many square feet of space. in your hand out on page 4, the title of the table 10 a is minimum egress requirements. if you look at item 4 you see it says assembly areas less concentrated dining rooms and 15. in an open dining area we will consider every 15 square feet to be one person, whether you have

more or less it doesn't matter it's how we calculate it. for waiting areas on item 3 above it, it says 3 square feet per person. perhaps, although we don't do this if you have a clear waiting area we may say, you have alot of people waiting and we will increase your occupant load. for dance floors, also we would look at item 3, 7 square feet per person. we will add it to your occupant load. we will also look at item 26, storage rooms. 300 square feet per person. we would look at bars that had fixed seating and count the number of fixed seats. or if you have booths that are fixed booths we will count the area of the linear number of

inches. i think it depends what the use is 18 inches per person, i don't remember the details. fixed seating is calculated. but based on our calculation of the occupant load we come up with a classification of a b or a. if it's a we talk about the impacts you become an assembly and need the fire department inspections. if you are b you are like another business you may have a health inspection you will not be subject to the assembly of the fire department. usually your plans when you submit them will have an occupant load calculation by your licensed design professional. they will designate the areas and give you a chart and we will review that. that way you get to decide how you want to use your space and

what you think your occupant load is otherwise it's up to us. you may or may not agree with us. >> yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible]. >> hold on. >> [inaudible]. >> that's regulations adopted by the state fire marshall where they vary from those adopted by the building standards commission. >> this only aplies to 50 occupancy or above? >> no it how you calculate the occupant load for anything whether it's a factory or resident, dwellings or anything. >> a cafe? >> a cafe, we would use the less concentrated because it's a dining room. the code says we assign it to the thing it most closely resem

b bells. >> probably. we have people coming in and says you know that ridiculous stuff. we say that's not what it resembles. no it's what we think it most closely resembles. i want to the board of appeals and someone said it was a storage place and it had a fire place and a bathroom. >> trying to get exclude? >> yeah. >> in your submittal your architect will do a calculation. space layout, we need to see all the disabled access features. this is the most difficult and expensive part o expensives parts of your plan. we do that by seeing it on the

plan and confirming it's built right. we don't need to see plumbing or electric or some mechanical the general plan where the hoods and ducts go and penetrations through fire walls. we need to see detailed energy code plans. the energy code makes building in california more expensive. this is a restrictive code. tells you what kind of windows and lights you put in how you ventilate it. and the cost gets tighter every year. it's part of the green building movement. and this is a good time to mention and may be others want to mention, green building and the allied slow food. the green building movement has a big impact. we see a lot of restaurants where we are recycling everything food waste and other

stuff and that should be built into the planning process and not an add-on. it's required for residential construction. there has to be a place to collect and pick up garbage restaurants say i will take care of that but if you don't plan up front you will not find the space per it later. the biggest is the mos conny center food preparation much the kitchen is unbelievable. they served the largest sit down meals in the history of the staechlt an 1100 person sit down dinner. see if you can get a tour of that it's neat. anybody want to say anything about green buildings. .