ndustry at that time. do you remember wertham? do you have a sense of him? yeah, we got a sense of him when they first hit the airwaves, and suddenly we were being attacked all over the place, and i'm looking under the desk for what i was doing wrong. i couldn't figure it out, but it got pretty bad, and then, all of the sudden, kefauver jumped into the picture. estes kefauver. yeah, he wanted to be president at that time. so he found a great vehicle here, and he jumped in, and all of the sudden, the attack got vicious, and the people who were distributing books got very nervous, and they started slinging comic books back at us, and we were getting returns up to 90%, 95%. so we got desperate. while i'm not a fan of censorship, i can understand what happened at the time and why they needed a code at that period of history. so did you think dr. wertham was a distinguished scholar? no, he was a sickie. he was a sickie. he was a sickie. he's no longer with us, is he? thank god. [laughter]

neither is kefauver, too, by the way. any other dead guys you want to badmouth? no, no, that's it. give him time. i--i--and yet, he put great pressure-- tell me about-- but the reason for it, i mean, we got to go back in history. remember, at that time of history, or that particular time in america's history, we were a very different country, and gaines--bill gaines was putting out horror books, and lev gleason-- that's biro and wood-- were putting out crime books, and they were going to the extreme, there's no question about it, and gaines told me-- bill was a good friend of mine. and bill said to me once, "with this sort of stuff, "you got to keep pushing the envelope constantly. "otherwise, the readers won't get enough. it's insatiable." so apparently, he did such a good job that wertham saw this, and he found the cause, and, boy, he worked it over. now, some of those books that you're talking about, things like crimes by women and the phantom lady books-- there were a lot of-- i mean, you look at the comic book price guides today, and there's a premium for something--

"lingerie panel contained herein." so there was a lot of adult material, but wasn't it also true at the time that a lot of your readers were not kids? i mean, weren't there servicemen reading your comic books? yeah, yeah. basically, yeah, there was an awful lot of servicemen, but he didn't concentrate on that. he concentrated on the very young. he claimed we were destroying the four- and five- and six-year-old children, and that was the big point he had. and people became afraid to carry any-- well, it got to that sort of point where the publishers went crazy, and they didn't say nothing for a point, but then, when the distributors found out and they got the pressure, and all of the sudden, they were slinging them back. i think it was 90% or 95%, as i said, returns were coming in. they had to do something, and then they created-- they, the five publishers at that time. that was marvel, d.c., archie. help me, joe. who were the other ones? archie--harvey comics was involved too. and there were five, and they got together, and they created this code and put this gentlemen in charge.

we tried to figure out the name before, but i couldn't. and what did this code tell you, as a creator, you could not do? ah, i was an artist at that point, now. at that point, i was told i couldn't draw any blood, no--couldn't have any blood on the picture, no dead bodies, no women who were semi-nude. men and women couldn't sleep in the same bed. ah, let me see. kissing was out too, i think. kissing was out? yeah, they could point to each other, but that was it. [laughter] joe, you are in the business of running marvel comics, and you are the editor-in-chief. yep. and what is the business of comic books about today? at that time, there were servicemen reading the comics. there were also young kids. what's the market for comic books today? you know, i don't think it's really changed that much. i think we want to fool ourselves that comics are strictly for kids, and you know, it's an argument that's obviously raised by people that want to censor us, that we're doing it for the children. that's always the argument. "it's for the children." you know, we bring in the children whenever we need to try to, you know, force upon,

you know, our civil liberties, and quite frankly, i-- there is a significant adult readership in comics today. there's no doubt about that, and there are kids that read the books also, but i don't think it's really changed. i think we've fooled ourselves into believing that it was strictly young kids back in the '50s and '60s, when, like carmine said, i mean, you know, back when we were selling millions of copies, every book, millions of copies, we had tons of servicemen and civilians, you know, reading these books. i mean, i would venture to say we probably have fewer kids today, only because they have that many more things to take up their time and to distract them, and their dollar goes in a million different other places, not just comics. i mean, we have to compete with a lot of other venues, you know, like tv, movies, video games, you name it. but i think the demographics are probably the same. (paulson) now, marvel comics has very recently announced that this code that carmine described is no longer applicable to marvel comics. (quesada) right.

(paulson) why is a code a problem? don't we need to protect young people? um, i think that every publisher has the right to police itself and has the--i think has the wherewithal and the common sense to sell the appropriate material to the appropriate age group. i don't think that we need an outside source-- which, by the way, is a complete fallacy, because this outside source was the most inside source ever created. talk about that. well, i mean, basically, what was happening with the code is that-- well, we lost some of those publishers since the '50s, but i think the remaining code companies were marvel, d.c., archie, dark horse, and i believe, every once in a while, the guys-- bongo comics-- would join in for something, but basically, what was happening with the code was that we would sit together and talk about the rules of the code. we made up the rules, and then we would-- we would pay an outside source to watch our rules for us

and make sure that we behaved based upon our own rules. now, aside from the fact that this is ridiculously silly, aside form the fact that i could not for the life of me think of anything left over from mccarthyism with the exception of the comics code-- i just can't think of anything in today's world that's still here, aside from fear. but the interesting thing about this code is that it was-- everything about it was based on fear, and it was fear of our government coming down upon our heads, and it was--it was--i mean, i'm not one to really quote our nation's leaders, but in a speech given after the world trade center disasters, you know, when our president said, you know, "fear and freedom are at war"-- you can't have those two things exist in one world, but the biggest thing that scared me about the code was its inconsistency,

the fact that you rate an archie comic the same as you would rate x-men. okay, now, for the person-- for the layperson who doesn't understand, really, what that means in comic terminology is, imagine taking your child to the multiplex, and you look up on the big multiplex board, and there's little mermaid, and there's matrix, and they're both rated the same thing. how can you possibly judge? so at marvel, we felt that it was very inconsistent. it was probably more dangerous. people don't even know what the seal means anymore. it's become irrelevant. i mean, the mother on the-- a mother on the street who brings her child into a comic shop, who, you know, shows her child a comic, has no idea what that little scallop demon means or says. you know, for all they-- mean, it's good paper. they have have no idea. so we felt that it was-- first of all, it was time to get out, okay. it was stodgy. it was old. it's--it just felt dirty, to be honest with you. so what we're doing at marvel is, we're saying, "you know what? "if the book has no marking on it at all, "it's kid-friendly. "just get it; it's fine.

"if it's not kid-friendly, we're going to tell you. we're going to tell you what's in the book." as a responsible publisher, that's what we're going to try to do. joe, excuse me, but didn't kmart have their own census guys set up where they would look at the books and take the books and not take the books? i understand d.c. and marvel's books were being thrown out like crazy. am i correct about that? well, in a way, carmine. what was happening was that they were only taking code-approved books. that was the fallacy. that was the fallacy. but even those got rejected, didn't they? well, what happened was that there's this code authority, right? and we all meet with this code authority, and we all chip in, and we--and we give dues. we paid dues to the code authority. i remember that. and the code authority's supposed to protect us against this stuff. so one of my major questions at our last code meeting was, "okay, so what happened when we went into kmart?" well, you know what? a non-code-approved book from an independent publisher snuck into the pack. so i was like, "so what are we paying our dues for if we're not being protected anyway?" what's the difference if we're going to get-- i mean, you know, we keep talking that we need the code to get into kmart, and to the best of my recollection,

we've been in kmart twice, and we've been booted out twice because something non-code has-- but they do have their own censor board. that's what i'm saying. kmart does. am i correct? right, but now, in our conversations with companies like kmart that are looking for kid-approved product, before we did this sort of self-labeling, we approached them and talked to them about this system, and they really liked it. so we're in discussions right now. i mean, i don't want to get into marvel business plans. it's really not what this is about, but it was a red herring, this whole thing about kmart will not take you without the code, which was what we were being fed, you know. (paulson) well, and of course, we have that situation with wal-mart and cds today. right. if it's got a parental advisory on it, they won't-- they won't carry it. if you can get it shipped without any kind of advisory, and the content is shocking and appalling, you have a chance of getting it into wal-mart, 'cause they're not necessarily listening to everything. if you label-- if you label, you actually invite some censorship sometimes as well. you do, and i'll-- and i'll also-- i'll also venture to say that one of the reasons we got bounced out of kmart

was because the quality of the books was terrible. you know, at the end of the day, if those comics were selling through the roof. (infantino) but, joe, the important thing is, who the hell are they to make the decision what goes in and what doesn't go in? well, they do have the right to make the decision. i mean, they choose the guy. they give him the job. he probably makes about 70 bucks a week, and if he likes a book, he puts it in. if he doesn't, he throws it out, and he's in charge. yeah, it doesn't make sense. let's get wendy-- let's get wendy into the conversation here. wendy represents another part of the industry. yes, we're those evil independent comics. you're the independent voice. yeah, that's right. [applause] this is clearly an evil, independent comics audience here today. you produce--you produce a series of graphic novels called elfquest. could you talk a little bit about what that is and where that fits in the comic book universe? (pini) absolutely. well, it began with my husband, richard, and i being fans of comic books when we were teenagers, and i was particularly a marvel fan, and just growing up, understanding the medium and how it's put together.

my career in my early 20s was as a science fiction and fantasy illustrator. i illustrated magazines and book covers and so forth, and it never occurred to me to consider the profession of comic book artist, but in 1977, there was a real upsurge of popularity in fantasy. star wars was out. lord of the rings was very popular. and so i told my beautiful husband the idea i had for this epic series called elfquest that had hundreds of characters and a long, soap opera-ish plotline that's still going strong after 24 years, and he gravitated to it right away, and so we began to just sort of publish it by the seat of our pants. prior to that, what had been going on was something called the underground comics movement. these were comic books published in black and white with fabulous artists like robert crumb, and the work in these comics

was purely adult-oriented and extremely, um-- oh, um, iconoclastic, and so apart from being a regular comics code fan, my husband and i were also fans of these very outspoken, very, very liberal-in-their-thinking comics, and it never occurred to us that it wouldn't be okay to publish a comic book ourselves. so we did, and-- did you finance it yourself? yes, we financed it ourselves, and-- you got guts. we were very lucky. you got guts. thank you. our first run sold out right away. how many did you print? at the time-- this was in 1977. it was unusual. we did 10,000. wow, that's great. first time around, that's great. and it sold out and quickly developed a cult following. i believe it did so because elfquest really kind of crosses the border from comics fandom

to science fiction and fantasy fandom. so we were able to bring in an entirely different kind of audience for a comic book than had ever existed before, and lo and behold, and something i'm happiest for, we were able to bring in a large female audience. to this day, elfquest's audience is pretty much half-and-half male and female and more on the older side. we have a pretty wide demographic, but i would say college age is still our primary audience. (paulson) now, you are not subject to the comics code. no. you decide on your own what to put in the book. yes. which explains the orgy issue. [laughter] oh, i knew you were going to ask me that. well-- [laughs] as the story progressed-- elfquest is about a race of beings that are somewhere between humans and angels. we call them elves, and they live by an entirely different moral code

than humans do, and being immortal, they-- there are certain things they don't have to worry about that we here worry about. we have laws and religion to cover that. they don't. so they're-- the issue in question that you've just brought up is-- they were about to go into a horrendous battle out of which not many of them would survive, and so naturally, they partied very hearty the night before, and we thought this was just the natural thing to do, and this was the first issue that we published where we put a warning to our audience, not for the sexual content, which, while it was done in very good taste was definitely there, but for the violence that followed, because that's where the battle-- that's also where the battle took place, and people were bashing each other's heads in, and there was blood everywhere. we've never worried about blood. so-- [laughs] so much to our great surprise, the hue and cry was not about the graphic violence. it was about the sexuality.

we received so many letters and phone calls. "what have you done?" we received our comic books ripped into confetti, shoved into envelopes, and sent back to us. would you say, in europe, you didn't have a problem? well, at the time, we weren't selling in europe. oh, you weren't. these were our early years. it was primarily in america. but you didn't have this problem when you sold in europe, did you? well, no. later on-- 'cause they're very liberal in that area. absolutely. our content is tame over there. i know. i know. so, yes-- (paulson) did you--did you-- i mean, do you market-- did you market the orgy issue intending that a 14-year-old might see it? absolutely. absolutely, and one of the things we were most grateful for, we got a letter from an 11-year-old saying thank you for not talking down to us. have you had a-- is it an annual elf orgy issue? or is that, ah-- [laughter] (pini) let's--let's put this in context. elf--my husband and i believe that the purpose of fantasy is to, in some way, symbolically, make a commentary on the human condition,

and we don't believe in censoring ourselves in any way, whether it comes to the emotions the characters feel, the relationships, the sexuality, the decisions they make regarding violence. it's all up for discussion. elfquest-- most--the theme that is most often expressed in heroic fantasy is good versus evil. okay, it's very simplistic. in elfquest, our theme is knowledge versus ignorance. we often tackle stories about racial prejudice, using the elves as the victims of these feelings and how they overcome it, and what they do leads to understanding. (paulson) let me push you a little bit here. all right. you've got explicit elf sex, and you've got-- not that explicit. not that explicit. um, and you have, really, what you describe as grisly battle scenes. yes. and you have an 11-year-old who says thank you. yes. do you want that letter from a seven-year-old?

well, let's take into consideration the fact that elfquest was created in 1977. kids are more mature today than they were back then. seven-year-old? and if a seven-year-old is capable, with, i think, parental guidance, because very often-- you know, elfquest is multigenerational now. parents who grew up reading it are now sharing it with their younger kids. we often get letters from parents. so if a parent chooses to share that with a seven-year-old and the seven-year-old understands it, we think that's entirely appropriate. and i don't want to distort the content of elfquest. the orgy scene is an exception. one issue. there's no-- one issue out of many. there's no centerfold involved in-- no. but you're saying that publishers have an obligation to warn parents and to invite parents to be part of that. so you have the freedom to publish what you want, but you can do it with some guidance. yes, exactly. i mean, bringing it into this year, we are reprinting some material that was first published in europe, and as you brought up, carmine,

it's much more liberal over there. much more. i know. when i was there, i noticed that. yeah, and this gives an artist more freedom. much more freedom. they prefer the work over there than here, actually. yes. i found that too. yes, and so voluntarily, for the reprint in america, because we know some comic book retailers get into trouble for selling questionable material to minors, we are voluntarily taking out some of the naughty bits for the american audience. (paulson) how do you feel about that? aren't you watering down your art? yes. and you're okay. yes, but the point is, i got it out there. it's out there, and for the serious collectors, they can collect the european comics, and so there--we're presenting an alternative within the alternative. if you want the milder version, you can have the milder version. (quesada) ken, there's also-- there's also a certain amount of responsibility-- and i know what wendy's talking about here-- that we have to show towards certain retailers in certain parts of the country, because there are cases right now or past

where retailers have been arrested for selling what is considered questionable material. (pini) yes. and that changes from state to state, and we're not talking about a ticket, you know: 50 bucks, go pay the court. we're talking hard jail time. so in situations like this, you know, it's a tough and very fine line that you have to walk between labeling and not labeling. do you--you know, do you inform the retailer? is the retailer solely responsible? is the parent solely responsible? and i think everyone-- everyone makes their own sort of educated decision. but there--but there are laws that we have to be very, very careful of, you know, in certain states, that are still there. there are a lot of people out there, and i don't know how many, but there are people out there who think that harry potter suggests some satanic influence. (pini) yes. have you faced that kind of backlash yourself? occasionally. i have heard that we were honored

by being featured on some christian fundamentalist station as being satanically influenced, along with the x-men, i believe it was. did it increase your-- increase your sales too? i hope so. but naturally, when you work with characters that have pointed ears and sort of elfin features, you're going to get-- well, mr. spock received the same kind of criticism in star trek long ago. but it's nothing we've ever worried about. i think one of the greatest things about our experience in doing elfquest, and it has been going for 24 years now, is that we've gotten away with so much. we live in an environment where we really can express ourselves freely and choose the kind of imagery we want to put out there, and we really haven't received that much backlash in that regard. (paulson) carmine, as an--as an artist and then later as an executive, were there times when you could not communicate your message in comics because of the code? were you ever--

did you ever censor yourself because of the code? no, no, i always felt that we could be more creative by having--being-- have this restriction. that never bothered me, and my editors felt the same way, or if they felt it, i would say, "no, no." you have not been reluctant to share your views here, and i want a candid response to this question as well. is joe wrong to get rid of the code? no. no, no, no, no. you've got to remember something. we were at a different period of history when we had that trouble. this business would not be around today if we didn't have a code, 'cause that's how bad it was. it was really destroyed. when you get 95% returns in comic books, you're dead. it's over. so they had to do something, and these five gentlemen who ran the company put this thing together. they didn't like it, but they did it, and the numbers began coming back. the distributors began handling the books, but they were getting sales of 30%, 35%. we were told to get-- taking cuts in salary, and i'm telling you, we hid our names. i'd sign different names all over the place.

it was a scary time, but now, no, no. i'm not in the business now, and whatever joe does, i applaud. (paulson) okay. do any of you think that violence in comic books encourages violence in kids? that is one of the toughest questions you could ask, because there is such a thing as imitative behavior. i'm remembering that movie where the kids were lying on the yellow line on the road, and the cars going by, and-- (infantino) someone calls that darwinism. kids were imitating--darwin. [laughter] when superman first began-- when superman first began, remember, kids were jumping off roofs. they thought they could fly. there was a problem at that time. how much they-- how much it reflects, i think it's the particular personality. some kids are going to be strange no matter what you do. [laughter] [applause] (paulson) that sounds like a benediction right there. where we experienced that was, one of our characters died,

and his mate cut off her hair in mourning, and we got a box in the mail a little while later, opened it up, and one of our fans had cut off her braid and sent it to us. so, you know, imitation. echoing carmine's comment there. this has been a terrific conversation, and i want to thank all of you for being a part of it. i think a lot of folks who see this show will have learned a great deal about the comic book industry. there are a lot of people who have the sense that it is-- it is just about kids, and there are no mature themes, and there are no mature messages. for those who do have an interest in the history of comic books, i want to recommend an extraordinary book, the amazing world of carmine infantino, a terrific new book, contains a lot of your artwork. (infantino) buy them-- (paulson) what's that? (infantino) if they buy them, i don't have to worry about food stamps. all right, let's keep carmine-- [applause] well fed. thank you all for being here. our guests today: carmine infantino. wendy pini.

joe quesada. thank you. [applause] i'm ken paulson. back next week with another conversation about free expression, the arts, and america. i hope you can join us then for speaking freely. captioning provided by the first amendment center, funded by the freedom forum. captioning by tate at captionmax www.captionmax.com

>> about four years ago, [inaudible] look at how beautiful this was. there is our relationship to the planet. these regions are the wealthiest, the most powerful. that really has impacted the planet.

it is almost impossible now to go anywhere and had it really be completely dark. there are very few locations that you can find. that means our relationship to the sky, there is a way where we dominate the sky. we cannot see anything really. we are blinding ourselves in a way. >> you can look at the images, they are beautiful.

when i started four years ago, there was a conversation about environmental issues that was very different. this is not being talked about in the way it is now. . this has just been like an amazing growth. i anticipate the project to be something that opens a dialogue to public interest in these ideas. so the work is really made to be seen in this environment. it's been show in museum, in gallery, but never in a public setting. and it's kind of ideal for both myself and the works to have this real dialogue with the public not only in san francisco but people coming from all over the world. >> since the dawn of

electricity, that light is something that people feel connected to and inspired by. personally, there is space to keep that alive, just finding balance. the key is to find some balance.