as a small-business person, each of you needs to understand, it is complex, but there are a lot of tax incentives and investment in business that you should take aware -- advantage of. >> we have two questions in the back. just to be mindful for everyone's time, we will go for about five more minutes. >> my name is david. i am an internet or entrepreneurs. in general, to the lenders, what type of vanity do you traditionally see approach you for loans, an llc, corp., and who is liable, for whose borrowing the money? >> as a micro lender, we expect the principles, the corporate form, to provide guarantees.

>> personal guarantees. >> the same. 20% ownership in the company. [inaudible] >> [inaudible] >> i heard something about sba guaranteed loans. maybe i missed something. does that have to do with the sba guaranteeing the entity? >> the question on the sba guaranteeing a entity as the order of the business, whether it is a corporation or partnership, for any small business lending, you should expect to be guaranteeing that long personally. as a small-business owner, from

a lender's point of view, we want to see that you are as invested in the business as you are asking the bank to be. the idea that non recourse loans, the way you describe it, loans that you get without having yourself personally liable is not the way it works. you should assume you will guarantee the loan regardless of the structure of your business. the good news, though, for businesses like you are describing, internet business, is that the capital requirements for that type of business is generally small. you are able to get yourself further along and share in revenues with a smaller amount of credit need. that is where we see a lot of businesses and personal service or internet business get started, and generate revenues and be able to show growth without needing any capital,

like a brick and mortar business might. >> my name is terry said. i have a retail business in san francisco for 22 years. i have a 5 04 -- 504 loan. it took me three years to get. we need more capital. i tried to get a line of credit from wells capital. i was decline. where does someone like myself go? i have a loan, i need additional funding. >> did you try through the sba? >> i already have an sba loan. i went to wells fargo for a line of credit and they would not give me one. >> i can speak to you about it. when we look at funds that are needed, the biggest thing we look at our cash flow.

i can address that with you. unless there is an issue, at that point -- [inaudible] >> let's talk, ok. >> i have a couple of more questions. i know that the panelists have agreed to stay after for those who have specific questions. i do have one question for wells fargo. what are the typical rules for applying for sba loan of less than $50,000? how much money do we need to have in your bank to apply for a loan? >> i am on the smaller side of the bank. i am a transaction guy. i do not technically require one

to have an account to do a loan with. what i look for, i generally start at 100,000 and up. when it is a requirement of 50,000 or less, i tend to call of the micro guys to help me out. that is right in their box. for us, the capacity for us to do the smaller side is not there as much as it is for them. on getting a loan through my side of the bank, i do not require an account to do that. we would like to have it, but i do not require it. >> last question for the opportunity fund and a critic representative. are you a cdfi?

is san francisco and s.p.a. in support of cdfi's being established in san francisco? >> yes, we are. we were founded in 1999 with a small business loan. that is how we started our tenderloin office. >> opportunity fund is a certified cdfi, so we are providing a benefit to low and moderate-income communities. he is the city establishing support for new cdfi's? >> mark wanted to address that, in support of cdfi's in the city. >> we have a wealth of partners in the city.

s.p.a. is just now rolling out a program for r -- will be the case by the summer. let me get one last point and on the question about relationships to lenders. the question was, do have to have an account with a bank in order to get a loan? may answer is no, but the real answer to it is certainly want to do that. one of the things we see as an important thing for you, as a important thing for you, as a small-business person to