to keep that in mind when you sight them. that's one of the layers of thinking that we're not falling short to city provide a balanced community when we take on identification and larger numbers of the last thing i was taking notes on when you were speaking , the neighborhood vision statement, i think it's -- and i'm coming around full circle. it's very easy to support something which has indeed a clear mission statement. it's very easy to do. it is when everything goes. when you kind of don't know where to draw the line. and i want to express my appreciation for all of you in the way you spend your own time reminding us over and over and over again. so i think this is a congratulations to all. i would be very happy being involved in that process as you

are. president olague: commissioner antonini. commissioner antonini: a few comments on various things. just on the side. i don't know whether this is within market-octavia or not. but i've been coming down golf recently and notice a new building that's almost finished. the citing is going on. i'm not sure what that project is. and i'm not really impressed by its appearance so far. >> that's because it's not in the plan area. [laughter] >> we'll worry about that later on. but it's looking pretty bad. ok. then in terms of affordable housing, as you know, ownership is not affected by palmer. so that's still an option. and if there is a chance for some land dedication opportunities, that's -- what we really need, and i've said this many times, is that we need income -- housing for middle income people. and we're not building any. and so we have to devise a

method to do this. and it has to be in market-octavia's borders and other parts of the city. one concept would be the builder would be required to do a higher percentage of inclusionary but they would be able to raise the income level. so it would be above the 1 20th percentile but they would have a higher requirement. the reason this might work is the amount of subsidy required per unit as you raise the cost, then it becomes less. and you could probably do more. i'm just throwing that out as a suggestion. i've had some conversations with supervisor weiner and he understands this and might have some ideas. because that's an area that in that range, just to throw out rough figures, for ownership purposes, $300,000 or $450,000 or something like that which would be the part that's almost impossible to find anywhere. in terms of the conditional use

for parking, it's always been my feeling that most of the congestion is people passing through an area. and so if in fact sometimes congestion is added to by people not having a garage and going around in circles looking for a place to park. so, i mean, i think where it's appropriate, and we feel it's ok, giving conditional use to one-to-one parking or higher levels of parking, might actually decrease congestion, not increase it. because it's not going to be a choice between whether you have a car or not. it's going to be what you're going to do with the car and how many trips it's going to take before it goes to rest. so fee deferral program, you know, not -- not -- i think it's a very good idea. i wish there would be more programs moving forward and projects. but because of the economy, it isn't. i think what we need to do is try to figure out as a city a way to work in some of these

community improvements as part of our normal budget. whether it be through operating expenses, not really likely in today's climate. but by bond issues, maybe. you know, by deferral of some expenses that are being used for other purposes and city government and more toward infrastructure which is really what cities should be doing first before they do anything else. except maybe for public safety, i think the next thing they should be doing is infrastructure. then they get into the more elective type things. the area from van ess to goff to market is in pretty bad shape until you come to zun yifment -- zunny cafe. there are a lot of hotels that look questionable there and i'm not sure what's happening on that. whether -- there is zoning in place. but i'm not sure what's being proposed. because that's an area that could be really a great area to

develop. because there isn't a lot of places that would be historical or couldn't be demolished in there. let's see. what else did i have in regard to market-octavia? you're going to have a traffic impact with two-way hayes and all of these because the cars that would normally be going on there would be forced to, you know, make a turn, probably rather than proceed on and they might end up going on franklin, a block out of the way to then get back to governor to go the way -- to goff to go the way they want to go on goff. there will be some ramifications but overall a pretty good idea. and what is this vehicle size idea? could you tell me a little bit about this? you can't have an escalade in market-octavia or what? >> that's right. no. this is an idea from the c.a.c. that's actually a fairly

creative idea that isn't really related to any of the policies in the plan. i'm not familiar with any agencies in this city that focus on regulating car size. at this time. but we are looking at parking management as a way to make sure that we're efficiently using all of the on-street parking. so that isn't something that the department imagines going forward with in the short term. >> are you saying the parking places would be too small to accommodate larger cars? >> the con isn't was -- the concept was if everyone had smaller cars there would be more room for them. >> a smart car in every garage. >> that's right. >> there are people who have larger cars. so it's interesting. i don't know where that's going. ok. thank you. >> sure. >> it's an interesting idea. and i've been fantasizing about it myself for a long time. every time i see a hummer on the road i think they're taking up not just a lot of space when they decide to park on a

sidewalk and take up about two or three spaces but then the amount of fuel that's used to -- energy that's used to sustain that kind of an automobile. i just think it's not sustainable and kind of contrary to the values of, you know, folks that are into the idea of sustainability. so it makes sense that it would come out of a c.a.c. market-octavia discussion to me. it's in keeping with that. and i think that definitely i'm -- i support any efforts to increase affordable housing in that area. because not much has been built outside of the redevelopment areas. but i think as a result of the plan itself, i don't think much has been happening there. so we'll look at your editorial and your hayes valley thing. but i think that middle class housing is encouraged and it should be that it shouldn't be at the expense of very low-income housing for sure since we've more than met our

needs as it relates to market rate housing. so i think we're kind of at a crossroads here. where we really need to look at how we can encourage the construction of affordable and middle income housing. in this area. and i'm excited to hear about the two-way hayes thing. and of course i support a lot of the ideas around c.u.'s and parking and this kind of thing. and it seems that the working relationship is good -- is good at the moment. between our staff and the c.a.c. and i want to thank the members of the c.a.c. for being here, mr. henderson, and mr. levity, for -- levitt, for all your leadership in that area. it's important for us to hear from you. because we get overwhelmed here at times also. so it's important for us to, you know, be able to -- we appreciate whatever input you

can give us since you're there. and you see things more closely than we do. and certainly in the hayes valley area. so thank you, kirsten, for all your work. and it's really exciting to see that we've come so far. and getting us to move along. and ms. dennis, too, thank you. commissioner moore. commissioner moore: i want to make a quick comment on the small car. and not that you can mandate that people have small cars. but in europe, there are parking spaces that are dedicated for two smart cars being next to each other and they pay half. in public garages there are parking spaces where two cars, two smart cars, exactly fits the size of a full car. so they pay half. so if you have a monthly thing, and you're renting half a pace, and your monthly parking space just cost you half. and that's an incentive for many people who would like to have a car and many small cars

are as comfortable and fast and releeble as the bigger ones there. and that's for many urban dwellers a very good alternative. so there's nothing unral stick. it's being done and -- in europe for many years and at night, everyone is rushing to the opera and needs to get in there in time before the kur taken calls and they're coming with little cars. and nose to nose into these parking spaces. and run off to make the curtain call. and they're obviously ahead of everybody else and those who are driving around the block looking for space and can't find it. when you start to plan that and a certain sense of rumor, you can get a lot of mileage out of it. and i think your neighborhood, where there's a lot of talk about new ways of living and new ways of doing things, might be the perfect pilot project to try and see if it works. so i encourage you not to say it can't work, and it's not about forcing people. but giving people the option by

saying guess what, you can have a small car and the space. president olague: commissioner sugaya. commissioner sugaya: like a -- half a smart car and half a park place? [laughter] never mind. i would like some continued discussion between staff and the c.a.c. on this whole c.u. thing about parking. because it's going to keep coming back to us, i think. and if we could have like a c.a.c. was saying, you know, more sort of -- i don't know the right term. i don't like the word "criteria. ks but things to take into consideration where maybe we would increase the parking. but that's -- that's the only thing i have to say, i think. and one more thing. if the c.a.c., we've had this issue between the mission delores people and the rest of

you guys on the north side of market. and i don't think there's a resolution particularly. they seem to want more parking. and we know what the plan says. but if you could kind of think about that, too, i think the commission would appreciate it. so we don't get caught in this kind of yeah, we were part of the plan. but we didn't really accept the parking part. and we're a separate neighborhood. and so -- and i don't know what can be done because we have the plan area. but -- >> i want to share -- not all of the c.a.c. numbers could make it but there are representatives from each of the neighborhoods including two members who are part of mission delores neighborhood association. so any dialogue we have, i think, will be representing a few opinions. president olague: mr. henderson, did you have something to add? >> our car idea came from that side. president olague: really? fascinating. that's fantastic.

commissioner antonini. commissioner antonini: i wanted to pass the thought on that mission delores has spoken about not being part of market-octavia but i don't think that's a doable thing at this point. i think early on in the discussions, they really felt that they didn't want to be. but now they are. and i think that's where -- you know, just going to have to work it out. president olague: so can you shed some light on where that was coming from? or are they just -- mr. henderson, how did it sort of like you can come up -- come up to the mic so we can capture you on the -- >> i don't want to -- speak for mr. olson. but he came up with that and his thinking was, you know, just like in a parking lot, you have compact car parking. president olague: oh, right. >> that was his logic was on-street parking could be managed where you would have an incentive maybe a couple of spots that would be for compact or for priuses or the same

thing that they're promoting with the h.o.v., you can get into the h.o.v. if you have a prius. that kind of thing. >> the city's logic for moirk parking. -- motorcycle parking. the city takes a space and divides it up into eight or 10 motorcycle spaces and collectively the fee is the same as if you had one car but spread out over 10 motorcycles and it's much cheaper to park there. for each motorcycle. >> the problem with compact space, they're not quite small enough that large cars just park there anyway. i think -- and something the size of a smart car, maybe a mini cooper, you might be able to size it down to where a large automobile could fit. president olague: i think we're done. >> ok. that concludes our public hearing on this item.

planning commissioners, you are now at general public comment. president olague: is there any general public comment on items that were not on today's agenda? seeing none, general public comment is closed and the meeting is adjourned.