didn't -- couldn't read hundreds years ago. i have a book of old japanese signs and there is basically a picture of the element, the picture of a sword, an actual sword, gigantic sword. is that an icon and is that part of the sign? >> i don't know if you could make it part of the argument that it's art work or architect url feature. >> and the store window is covered with records. >> you know what is in the store. >> you sure do. this is a japanese restaurant and that is called a noran and that is the sign and when they're open they put it up and when they're closed they take it away. then

we have some of these wonderful old signs that represent our history, the wis burgers, the cable car burgers out on geary, lovely stuff and well maintained and the signs are still part of the business. one of my favorite signs is this motorcycle shop sign. i think it's an old honda dream something like that up there flying. this is a sign out in mission for something called "light". i don't know what it is. there are lots of people hanging around. looks like a cultural center. i was going to ask you about the supplementary pieces on the building and the cigarette ads and what of that

is allowed? >> generally the clutter is not allowed. we had cases in north beach and had to remove them and could be advertising cell phone companies and had the banners and that could be considered a general advertising sign depending how much they have and we have to look at that and the zoning and whether it's allowed. >> but that seems to add to the character of the neighborhood? what do you think? is it part of the character? >> yeah, i think about that a little bit, and it is like art to the degree that it asks you to think what the city values and there was a time when the city really valued entrepreneurial energy and with these type of stores and immigrant entrepreneurial energy and you come to the new world, and going to make a go of it, and you're going to do everything you can to make your

business work. there is a lovely graphic artist cater and i think some of his work is in u.s. weekly and he has a series about a real estate photographer and this character wanders through the city that is kind of like new york and not and a really important part of the city and how it speaks through ingenuity and a will to make a go of it. now that is the intention and north beach is the example and the stakeholders pride and the people that regard it as their community and want it a certain way and have sern elegance and generosity and consistency that is at odds of this and the chicago model and the flower baskets all over and do they make the city welcoming or homogenized and the bay area

and san francisco. it's a trade off and a balancing act that i am sure you work with all the time. >> i agree. and according to the complaints we see that the citizens don't value the temporary signs and banners. >> there are exceptions. chinatown. >> cultural -- and again this is captureed in a joke of people that open up businesses to go out of business and advertising "going out of business. last chance" and next month a similar store opens and does the same thing. >> and we have talked about the exceptions and temporary signs. >> yeah and that is exempted for the temporary use. >> clearance sale. this is a permanent clearance sale. >> yeah they're gone now. i have bought there before. they have left.

>> we talked about the a frame signs and in some ways people are doing what they can to take the business succeed. a small computer business. >> and the nail business and the sandwich board. >> here is the first class shoe sign in chinatown. yes, sir? >> do the sidewalk signs a frame require a permit. >> any taking up of the street space requires a permit. >> and it's on the first floor and there is somebody staffed there all the time and they can issue permits. >> and require minor sidewalk encroachment and 875 stevennen son fourth floor. >> and in regards to the closing out signs in the stores if a person is not closing out but

using it to lure people is that under the building -- in other words closing out to get you in there to buy stuff and it's not really closing out. >> we have different provisions for about the 30, 60, 90 days of what we consider a temporary sign, so i mean if the sign was up there indefinitely no longer considered a temporary sign and then that could require a permit depending where the sign is located. >> we would probably respond to a complaint about that. we don't have inspectors timing how long the sign is up. if someone files a complaint we will check it out. >> if it's up there for a length greater what we consider temporary use depending on the zoning and up to 90 days for a temporary sign. >> i am doing something dishonest. >> it's consumer fraud. >> yes. >> here is more today's special some more -- >> and that street is a good

example and obviously people frequent that street everyday and tourist street and people passing through and on vacation and don't have a memory that the store is going out of business for two years and that is why that entrepreneurial device works in that location. >> that was the same stuff that was up there yesterday. i don't know if that is fraud. it's just business i think. now, here is a case -- jeanine you were saying people are doing what they can and a tiny massage shop and they have every device to get you in there and the picture of the body and the awning and the sign and the fliers. you can take one and little things as you walk by and everything but somebody standing outside with a hook actually, and they're really trying. it's a difficult place to start a

little business. there is not much traffic there on that street. may have not been a good business decision to open up therapeutic massage there. >> how about signs on residential buildings? what do you think about that scott? do you need a permit for that? >> there are allowances for identifying signs on residential buildings and permits required there are exemptions and you could have a street number and that doesn't require a permit but something like this and you're getting into the structural part and i think a permit would be needed. >> it's not highly regulated. >> we have limitations and identifying signs. here is a sign with some history. maybe somebody remembers this. this sign came to the board of appeals and i have been working

with them for years on and off and there was a complaint in the planning department and they had sign without a permit and exceeded the area and the planning code and directed to take it down and this was yesterday. so we have problems enforcing some of our zigs and orders. it's almost a historic sign and up there so long and it's elegant. downtown, the most amazing things we don't have signs on all of these buildings. how is that possible? and not like tokyo and hong kong what is going on? >> strict regulations and the heights and you don't see a lot of signs at the top of the buildings so that's why you have the clear san francisco skyline that we're famous for.

>> but we do have some -- >> yeah there are several signs you will see and non conforming signs but in the c2 district you can't have a a sign 60 feet and we have to keep in mind the signs have been in the planning code since 1965 and before that not governed. >> and legal non conforming at this time and if you take down a legal non conforming sign with the intention to replace it and there is legislation that you can't take it down. >> right once it's voluntarily taken down you can't replace it you can maintain it but you can't take it down and replace it. >> okay. let's move on to one of the biggest issues in the city and the billboard issue. look at the size of that thing. so this is the triangle of land

show place square area and the sign recal probably brings in me revenue than the restaurant. how much money do they make? >> they can make up to a half million dollars a month in revenue from one of these signs and this is potential amount of money being generated by the signs. >> and there was a proposition -- >> prop g passed and since 2002 all general advertising signs are illegal and no new ones since that time. >> and means you're advertising something that is not for sale on the premises? >> right. >> but existing billboards are allowed to be retained? >> exactly. as long as they had the proper permits they're allowed to be maintained until the end of their natural life.

>> and in order to assure that they were erected with the proper permits and that they are the right size they are now required to have a notice on them and i think we may have one of these notices somewhere. >> per planning section code they need the permit number that authorizes the sign, the sign company and the dimensions of the sign, so you will see those numbers up on the signs. >> somebody has a question. >> was there any interest to eliminate them from the city? would there be any possibility to do that. >> with prop g i mean there is natural attrition as the signs age -- >> (inaudible). >> exactly and with the inventory and with the survey we will be doing and identify signs that were erected pout permit and pursuing course of actionos those signs. >> and you mentioned about the character and defining the character of the city billboards

are one of the things american culture. i mean i personally think in the city those don't need to go. who does it benefit? is it a revenue stream for the city or the commercial businesses? >> the revenue is good for the general advertising company. they will have that and the property owners and some of the revenue will go back to them depending on the lease but in terms for the city there is none. >> jeanine you had something. >> when i was looking at the last slide and you just don't know and you think there was probably a point in the city "for god's sake not another doggy dinner" and we don't need anymore of these things gunking it up and now of course we love it and i love it too. what i try to imagine in 25 years oh it's the last big billboard in

the market area and we don't want to lose it. >> so is this going to phase out. >> prop g is in effect since 2002. >> and it's permanent and no more. >> right. zero new advertising signs allowed and only when it's relocated from another location. >> and you say we expect attrition will reduce them. i think that the values of these signs we're going to see little or no attrition. we may see some relocation. >> i think there a good number of signs that don't have the proper permits as well and you will see signs if they don't have the required information up there that could be evidence that they received the proper permits so there could be a got

of general advertising signs coming down. >> or scott and the planning department and in charge of the enforcement and you say we don't have a record of your permit and what that starts is a very long debate between the building owner and the sign companies making a lot of money in the city and with the attorneys and what is allowed and what is not allowed. we rarely see them taken down. they fight every step of the way. >> we will under take a sign inventory and the sign companies are going to be submitting inventories of their general advertising signs and this is in conjunction with new legislation that was sponsored by supervisor peskin that provides for relocation of a sign or at least application to relocate a sign that it can only be done through an agreement with the board of

supervisors and if the sign inventory has all been shown to be legal and there is no pending violations -- i think as you showed in an earlier slide problems even when the board of appeals has found that a sign was illegal getting the sign down and because of that supervisor peskin is also sponsoring amendments to section 610 of the planning code that would provide for administrative hearings and penalties that would be enforceable particularly in conjection with the city attorney to try and deal with those cases where there just hasn't been compliance. >> thank you. this is a gigantic sign and it's interesting. it's getting cheaper and easier to manufacture billboards and

signs. we no longer have the hand painted signs. we have vinyl signs just produced out of a printer from a computer. you of doing that kind of sign, is that right? >> it's getting more and more difficult to getting spaces to put up signs and largely controlled by a couple of companies doing the outside advertising. it's unlikely we will get the space. we can get the material but they control it. >> as we look along we see general advertising mixed with the advertising for the retail spaces and the right spot. this historic neon sign we hope some day gets restored. >> that is a good example with the required information, the permit number, the dimensions. >> here is another sign and advertising the yellow pages and over the building. is this

considered general advertising? >> yeah that is considered general advertising sign. so in that case if it was after the proposition they can't have it? >> exactly. >> this picture is interesting. somebody said how about if the general advertising sign is inside the building? and here we have one of those frames and advertising snakeos a plane inside the building. is this a general advertising sign? >> it could be considered general advertising sign but i don't believe it's subject to the prohibition of the planning code and it's within the building, and as long as it's not designed to be viewable by passers by -- >> that's obviously what's it for. >> it's in a parking garage and meant to get to them and maybe it can be added to. >> i don't think it's covered. >> we recently did have a

dialogue with a person who is a entrepreneur and indoor advertising asking that very question and i would say we have to look at -- like scott said and if visible on the public right-of-way and does that constitute a general advertising sign. i think something -- i have seen signs in elevators for instance in embarcadaro center and that is truly in the interior. i guess that's a question that we're going to have to do some more work on and interpreting with the zoning administrator. >> let's look as we come to the end about historic signs. this is a historic sign and this black smith shop and on howard -- folsom and has the beautiful sign on the side of the building. get a little close up of that. tool, manufacturing,

in general black smithing. do we make exceptions for historic signs and what way? >> historic signs are allowed and addressed in the planning code. we do want to preserve that and valuable remembrance of the heritage and we want to preserve this. >> i think what is lovely about these signs and what they disappear and appear and this is around for a while and when there is a demolition of a building and you frequently find an old sign for a laundry or whatever and also what is interesting and the degree to which the signs and uses disappear and they're named in the buildings in their place and foundry square and lots of metal work and things that went on in

that area and they're disappearing in favor of white collar business but the names of the businesses remember them. >> and when a building is reconstructed and taking off the facade and historic sign and any requirement to stop work or are they allowed to punch holes through for windows. i ask and recently on octavia park and there was a new grill put in and historic sign and i like the restaurant now with the light and the windows but the sign was gone afterwards? >> i am unaware anything in the building code says that you have to stop. maybe the planning code. >> maybe a landmark sign or along those lines but i don't think it's addressed in the planning code to preserve the signs to that extent. >> so the city had a bunch of

doggy heads and now have one left. >> it's a landmark. >> it's a landmark dog. >> it's a landmark now. >> on the waterfront we have interesting signs and you can only see from the water really. this is one and pacific far east and the golden bears there and a whole realm. are they being preserved in anyway? >> no, i think we should discuss that with the port authority and maybe fall under their jurisdiction. >> welcome home. i think this is from operation -- what is the one before operation desert storm. >> (inaudible). >> shield. and another ris toric sign and pier 23 and good jazz and out door eating and this wonderful sign. an old sign representing since 1857 san francisco business. >> predates the planning code.

>> they can keep this. the moxie. this is a sign that -- this building through a number of changes. the sign has been there through it all and now an office and they left the sign up. murals -- are they signs? are they regulated in the planning code? >> no. there are allowances and projecting murals but generally can be considered art and it's something that we definitely want to encourage for that area and people would come and tag my door and i wish i would have a nice mural on it and they would think twice and it's important fabric of the city. >> is there anything in the code that encourages art -- >> part of the planning code has things for art depending on the size of the project and we open everyone would do it on their

own and enjoy it. >> this is fantastic. >> i mean one of the interesting things and the mission bay and that obviously the mission is a really rich place to find murals but that a lot of what gets called the mission school in the art world today came out of people who really were very interested and celebrated old signs and cataloged them and encorporated them into their work and several artists and from their early work went around the mission and sketching the old signs and the hand painting them and doing them in their art work and the relationship between signs and art is close in the mission. >> is there a general rule for regulating signs over businesses and interferes with the residential area above? >> you're not allowed to have signs blocking the windows.

>> and the specific requirement says that you can't blocked required windows but you're talking about a big bright light that flaws flashes all the timed keeps people awake. >> it's whether it's eliminated at all or it's on the zoning. >> i think we covered a lot of ground today and i want to thank you all for coming and thank our guests jeanine and scott and hope you see you all next month thank you very much. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>