out. both their job and architects are -- you can even do that in a high rise, get into the high rise structure. as long as you are not affecting the safety of a building in any way, whatever, just about anyone can get and design that and bring it in. they aren't so smart. so there are little things like that anyone can do and as a matter of fact there are some instances where you don't even need drawings in the building district. for instance, kitchen and bathroom remodel. >> if you are staying in the location itself, everything done within the confines of the kitchen and bathroom of a residential building, we would

say, okay, describe it adequately on that permit permit form in detail what you are taking out, what you are replacing. that takes the place of a industry angle. >> again, it's up to not the person at the counter who is going to determine if you have adequately described that? if it's too large a project they may still ask for a drawing. . >> you have an existing house and you want to do a kitchen remodel and some foundation repairs, well, probably the simplest thing you could do is have no drawings for the kitchen remodel and just make whatever arrangements you want with a building contractor and

get a simple drawing for the construction engineering firm. that's probably the least fuss way to handle it. >> she may be looking for someone to design it for her and she's having difficulty finding an architect to take that job. >> there are people who do kitchen designing. one thing you might do is call some of the places in town that sell kitchen nriepbses, might even be able to deck to a kitchen designer. and the recommendation on a foundation i think is just right on. a lot of times i might know a structural engineer who can provide the foundation work you asked about.

>> the question you asked does -- discussion that's frequent. if you know so much about what you want that all you need is someone to draft it. you will probably not have great success in finding an architect, especially a licensed architect, but that's the pathology of our profession. architects in general are looking before something on the task. we are, as harvey said, we are looking to be making harvey a better place. is that you, will, embarking on a kind of exploration like that. the part of the world you're working on right now is no bitter.

it's more than a drawing solution. it's more than just getting a permit. and it's not for everybody. i wouldn't say that you just get an architect and the reason you have had trouble is because you don't need an architect. you might find, you know, you might find that the -- if you don't have a building professional -- a design professional involved, you might end up with something that spoils what you like about the house. that's another thing. you can make your own judgment about that. >> my question has to do with whether or not the arkt tekt should be the owner's representative during construction. >> it depends on what he's proposing as a representative. he should meet with the contract on a regular basis and

review the applications for payment from the contractor. owner representation, that expression is usually used for a slightly different set of services which could include what i've just described plus making all decisions on your before, meaning you won necessarily participate in that. we call it construction administration. you would not necessarily get into the construction process. but from the fee is looks like he would be answering questions and that's a valuable sfts. >> before we talk about actual practice, let me go back to what the law says. the architects registration act in california has a session in it that makes it andary for an

architect to have a written contract with a client in early february. there's a lot of detail about what that has to have, but basically it declines the contract as this is what you're going to do and this is how much i'm going to pay you for it. it is frequent that people will make a contract or an agreement for certain specified scope of services which you have just described, which is due to the original design and certain agency approvals, leaving it open to what the architects further involvement will be. so the arc sect first of all is acting absolutely properly by saying to you at this point,

we've got the project to another milestone, now we're going to go ahead from the construction and i believe you could benefit from the following services, a, b and service. i'm offering to provide that over a certain cost. >> one thing people don't frequently remember or understand is that during construction a design decisions can made unmade. they can get unmade for half a dozen different reasons. we can get to those doorknobs in time so we're going to make those decisions, the builders who are holding the hammers and screw guns also frequently, especially in a house, will discover a condition that nobody knew was there. the grain pipe or uer or a

structural condition, there was a lack of -- you name it. so the decisions that happen during construction i would recommend. architects would recommend that you continue to engage them at least in terms of helping you decide when you read that fork in the road, which way to go. >> one of the state law requirements in owner is that it must include provisions for ending the contract. so i believe if you look at the contract you signed, you will find a paragraph that says how to determinity and it's frequently something like 7 days written notice by either party. should be no problem with that. gets considerably more complicated when you talk about juan rr architect taking over the work that has been produced

by another architect and that depends -- there's no universal answer. that depends largely on the provisions that the contract that the architect prepared and you signed, how that is dealt with in the contract. because sometimes architects will quite explicitly reserve all rights to their work, their other forms of acceptable assignment of the contract and use of the document. so it really depends completely on the particulars of the case. and any architect you would approach for taking over a project if they are doing their job is going to be asking those questions and is going to be

calling the former architect and saying, is it okay if i use this, this and this. certainly they will inquire, have you been paid to date? know all those kind of things. so it gets a little complicated. >> the issue is, i don't believe the law these regulations are written to hold you hostage. that's not the purpose of them. the purpose is to protect the second architect. one of the things you've got from your long letter, an assurance that the drawings are legal, that the project is going to work. but anding those new drawings over to me i've got to ascertain for myself that that's going to be the case. >> you are going to be building, say, a cabin or some other type of vacation home, something like that, would you advise to hire locally because you have to abide by regulations and things like

that? what would your suggestion be about that? . >> the knowledge. local code is useful to a point. all of us have expertise in dealing with codes and most communities have the same thing in mind. they might have some nuance as to their planning guidelines -- they all have different planning guidelines -- and there would be nuances and the difference in the code. as an architect that practices all over call the local officials and talk to them about what the job is. it's much more important for

you to be comfortable. >> it's also important that they be familiar with the conditions. you need to make sure they have had experience with the region. >> i think what it comes to is when you are putting together the team that's going to work on your job, you go back to all these questions and make sure you are getting the right people. . >> licensed and unlicensed architects, what are the fees difference? . >> the answer could be anything because some people you would describe working as unlicensed architects are, you know, beginers, someone who might have taken a few community college courses in design. but also people working as

unlicensed architects might be world renouned artist doing the design of a landscape garden or some fabulous house somewhere. so there's no easy answer to that. i think that, generally speaking, if architects charge higher fees than unlicensed practitioners, that has to do more with the costs of maintaining an office and just how do they go to -- the question that was asked was, if i can translate it a little, what can we expect as billing rate that is a client would see for a senior architect working

on a project. architects have been a little shy about that since the late 1990's, i'm not sure of the exact time, when the american institute of architects would publish a recommended fee schedule, which was in most cases laced on a percentage of the cost of the building you bought. it would be 6 percent for several building times and then 10 percent for others. the fee could include certain services but would exclude others so it's a fairly con plaintiff's exhibit guidelines that guidelines had to p. with that, a whole practice went from many illegal under

antitrust suits, and show us there is no clear publicly available source of architect rates and fees that i know of. >> it varies. but i think -- you probably all know -- architecture is not a highly remuepb rative profissions. it attracts a lot of people and therefore the pressure is down. but i can answer your question. you start out as a professional architect and my kid paid $40,000 a year. that's about normal. >> that's not right out of school. >> no, not right out of school, man, i want that job. the thing is, then it goes up. the other thing about architecture it takes a long time to learn. it's not uncommon to hear about

an architect who starts his firm at age 50 or 55. there are a lot of different aspects to this profession that takes many learns to learn how to do. so limbing from 40 up to -- i real sently saw some statistics that a firm, at the top end he's getting $300,000 a year. this is relatively rare fieed air for architects and there was national. there is, as you can tell, a broad spoken here. i'll give you another actoid if you want. an architect rents spaces and computers and every guy who is working on a computer is

working on $5-- between his salary and what he has to bill out at is about 3. . >> there's an incredibly wide range in how much money self-employed architects make from year to year. we had the lowest dip in my own experience practicing in san francisco was at the beginning of the 1990's sort of after the earthquake but before the dot com boom where, in one year, my schedule c bottom line was less than the money i was paying my secretary, and the only way i

cured that in the following year was by not having a secretary. so whenever you are quoted somebody's rates, you have to take into account that that's one point on a graph with a lot of peaks and valleys and i think that that uncertainty rather than what the average number comes out to be, is probably the largest single deterrent to that any sensible person has from establishing an architecture practice. >> is there any percentage based on the size of the -- is there any kind of standard? . >> my colleagues might have different answers but i would

say when you are budgeting private residential project, use 15 percent. . >> private residential project, 15 percent is a good budget number for the architect but you should actually add 30 percent to your construction budget for your whole project cost. >> i'll give you a bargain. if you want to do a library or a big school building, we can get that down to 10 percent. . >> why 30 percent? . >> because you have permit fees, you have structure engineer, you should have a contingency for some of the matters that i spoke to at the very beginning, which is just the comfort factor, changing your mind, you decide when the walls are open that you want to do something that you originally thought you weren't going to do this time. and it goes pretty fast. >> before we do more questions, i want to insert into the discussion one more set of

thoughts and that's why your kids should study architecture. really, my excuse for bringing it up is i think anyone who is contemplating working with an architect, this might give them some insight of who becomes an architect and what their motivations are. that's a way of spending your life applying to your work everything that you know about every other subject. there's nothing that makes up a person's education and experience and belief system that cannot be used to effect their work as an architect. and there are never going to be

-- this should never find it to be boring work because they never raeched their goal because there's never a single right answer. so it's an unending and very satisfying process, unlike most -- unlike many professions and i'm thinking of the law when people come to an attorney when they've got trouble. people come to an architect and they want something to go right it's an aupltional situation. so they are entering the whole enterprise with a feeling of optimism. that means as an architect you get to spend your days dealing with optimistic people who want to move something to a more satisfying level.

it's also the case that in the education that you get yourself as an architect, learning about buildings since cities and parks and how people use those things or what the history of those things because, but i guess that anywhere you go in the world it's just another double page spread in your study book where you are looking at things with an expert eye and adding to your knowledge and what you see. again, as has been touched on before, the amount of money that architects make sends to be comfortable somewhere between the pain of poverty and the stigma of excessive wealth.

so think about that when your kids say, what should i study? . >> as far as collaboration with all the different players in a project and for reviewing the plans to work client, is it more common these days to do so in digital form where you can revise it very easily or is it more common to stick with paper and we don't have to pipbt up a new one. >> i think most architects in practice now make their drawings because that is 1 of the choices. it makes life easier for a myriad of reasons, but i think one of the most important tools as an architect is the cocktail napkin. you have to be able to think and communicate and draw that way too.

so it's just the digital drawings are 1 of the tools that you have available with you, but i find it difficult to work with people who can only use that set of tools. >> in listening to this discussion, it seems to me if i were going to hire an architect one set of questions i want to ask during that interview process is how are the fees charged, exactly what do the fees cover and what is your standard contract covering issues like i want to back out or you want to break out and those types of things. >> i ugted that you would want to talk about the architect with the rates and payment terms. you certainly want to go over all of those other contractual things but the benefit of

contracts is that they allow us to discuss in advance when we're all friends what happens when things might get difficult. and frequently putting the contract itself on the table will bring up the questions that prospective client might not think to ask. as far as the fees, my own practice is to be completely open with the client the way i make up fee proposals is i do a worksheet for the project predicting all of the tasks that we're going to do. sheet by sheet analysis of the drawings, labor hours we predict in each one. specific times for meetings with prospective contractor

builders and so on. then i can put that sheet on the taipbl and say here's where my number come pbt right to you. which sofses do you not want to have? that's something everybody can understand and we can reach an agreement. but i think it's almost always a mistake to treat a fee as a mystery and deride the fee as some arcane kind of formula. it's simply a list of what you want to do and how you are going to get there. >> i guess i was kind of confused about if you go in and -- can you expect an architect to say, the fee is going to be 30 percent of the project costs or are they going to say these are the tasks, are we going to

bill her $150 an hour. >> what karen was saying with the 30 percent, when someone is contemplating a barraget and making up an initial budget, that's a nice safe number to put in for the miscellaneous costs that are initiated beyond construction. but when you are actually agreeing on a scope and a fees, then you have to discuss the particulars. what are you going to do, how long is it going to take, how long should it cost me. . >> is a contract a bid with the architect, that is, i think this is how many hours it's going to take and it's going to cost -- it's like a contractor

who bids on a job, if it comes more than that, the burden goes with the architect and not the owner. >> there are several ways you can write a drt. one, you can have a fixed fee. for this defined scope of services you are going to pay this much money. if i'm really efficient and i get it done in less than than i guessed, the money goes in my office. that way you are protected against the fee goes stratospheric. or the contract to be written, these are our hourly rates, we'll do what it takes to get the project done and that's

commonly referred to as the open checkbook approach. and there's some projects where that's appropriate, but that's fairly unusual. it's just a question of what you agree to. >> sometimes, many times your architect will ask you -- look, the basic design and construction will cost x, i can guarantee it, but because it might take 6 to 9 months, for that kind of work, we will keep track of that separately, we'll have to do that which the hour because it might cost me $10; it might cost me $100. >> is it wise for the owner to do it themselves? go to the hearing, talk to the neighbor it is, explain it all out? . >> that depends, mark, entirely on the ability of the owner. some know enough to give it a good try.