to the department of building inspection brown bag lunch

series. i'm lawrence cornfield we do this once a month on the third thursday and we are happy to have you here. >> everybody is involved sooner or later in san francisco in remodeling their home. when you drive through my neighborhood there are contractor trucks every where. and i remodeled my home. today we have a couple of guests to help us out we have harvey hacker he's an act he contributed to a couple of the brown bags on how to hire an act and another about building design and facades, too, i think. >> right. >> something like that. >> mr. dan helsinger who is a son tractor with helsinger builders in san francisco and does lots of construction work ask can help us address our questions today.

>> i think as we get started the topic of today's talk is how to plan a home remodel. we want to talk about how to plan a successful home remodel. it's easy to do a home remodel and easy to have an unsuccessful one. most people are strezed out by their home remodel work? >> people do get stressed out, dan, don't you find. >> what is successful home remodeling. for me and you it's to do it in such a way it achieves on something what your anticipated project looks at the end and keeps your life in a manageable, low stress situation. what makes it successful? okay. reducing stress what else makes a remodel less stressful harvey?

>> reduce stress but what make its successful is when you end up with something that makes your living situation something better than it was before. >> i'm surprised how wonderful this remodel is! >> exactly. >> one of the reasons as we move along to talk about who's part of your project team. one of the reasons people hire architects, particularly in design professionals is they bring value to a job that you as a homeowner can't even imagine. an architect who brought experience in home remodels or other design professional can look at it and have a vision of what it might add to your life that you never considered. do you find that to be the case in your project? >> that's what we hope for in

the design world. >> what else makes a successful home remodel? >> cost. okay. cost. everybody says, okay, so here i will start off by saying, the 3 elements of a home remodel i learned over the years. how long does it take? how much does it cost? how good is it? what's the quality? how good is the job? >> the goal that people that have unreasonable expectations is, i'm going to get all 3 things. i'm going to get a cheap job done fast and it's going to be a great job. there's a recipe for failure. you can't get a really good price, a fast job and top quality job all together, don't you think? >> 2 out of 3. you can get 2 out of 3. >> get 2 out of 3. if you plan well and organize it

rather than 2 out of 3 or some of all 3 and you figure out which are more important. may be quality is driving your project and your cost is flexible. >> i think significant word you used before was expectations. because there's no such thing as a right cost or a right schedule or a right quality. but if you can get sufficient information to align your expectations with what's realistic, and then take appropriate steps to see that those expectations are met, you will be a happy remodeler. >> you basically you need to have a concept of what the scope of your project is. now, from the building department's point of view. you are at the building department i see your project

when you come get your permit. people come in and they have been thinking about a home remodel for years. anybody here who's done a home remodel. >> we have been thinking about it for 8 years and a couple of months. we getting around to now having a scope of the project and the layout. >> okay and so i guess what i'm trying to say is people do give a lot of thought. they ramp up to these things we are talking about home remodels. most people give it a lot of thought and take a lot of time. i believe that you have to have your reasonable expectations in time throughout the whole project. you can't say, i'm taking 7 years to give it thought and once the plan's done or with the

permit out and suddenly want the zob done you have to keep everything in it's right progression and scale what do you think, harvey? >> sometimes a long gestation period for a project is a really positive thing especially in terms of remodeling until you get to know a building get tong about just, for example, where the sun come up and how it affects the rooms at different times of the year. you can't do as good a job as if you had just walked in the day you acquired this place and tried to make up what to do. there are benefit to waiting. it might not take 8 years but there is a benefit. >> right. my wife wonders, what is the benefit? why is we taking so long to get the garden planned. >> i'm thinking, dear i'm

thinking. i see in the building department i see people who spent years giving it some thought and they come in and they are in a real hurry because they want it done by christmas. and i'm saying, to meet reasonable expectations in the time period you need to understand that each piece of the process takes a substantial amount of time. what do you think about time, dan, what's your take on time? >> the process of a remodel and getting plans, interviewing architects, getting designs and pricing, hiring the architect, getting competitive bids from all the subs. that's where that cost, time, quality come in. if you don't have any time you don't have the time to get competitive bids. your costs are not as tight. so, i think there is a process that most people don't understand. that going through it it all

takes a certain amount of time. that's the process that we encounter all the time of meeting a client, very much in the preliminary stage and looking at their drawings when they are in a scheme phase to let them know their ballpark budget. that's critical sometimes almost always significant more than what they want to spend. >> i would concur one of the most important things that you as a homeowner can do when you think about a remodel is to get the architect and the contractor involved early on like generally look at the scope of what you have in mind. is this a reasonable project? what is the approximate range of cost? what's the approximate time it will take? you begin to develop a scope of work that will ultimately meet your expectations?

>> something that's not apparent to everyone, when you use the term, the architect and, the contransactor how can this be? somebody would say if i solicit competitive bids i don't know who, the contransactor is. it's my experience that almost all building contractors are delighted and considered a normal part of their business to talk to people at the early stage of planning a job with no expectation that that will end up being their project. and that kind of advances everyone the whole community of remodelers and contransactors into the realm of more realistic and manageable expectations. >> i talked myself out of more jobs than i talk myself into.

we go and we know we have been doing it for 20 years and know what things cost. a lot of times that's the last thing people want to hear. somebody will tell them it will cost less. at the prilim their stage where there are not documents to keep someone to there is nothing to keep you from saying it's going to be less expensive. from my experience the worst thing is to get involved with a client and tell them it will be lower and as the project gets going and you opened up walls and stuff gets discovered and you give them the bad news when they don't have a choice than they have to finish the project. that's the worst feeling. >> i'm a beginner and i spent time looking at the bureau's website first. starting from scratch if i want to do minor remodeling and i

have major projects to engage a contrekter. where do i go to find information to get permit approval. is there a website and how to guide what can one do for one self to start with. >> i have a question for harvey and dan. hard to answer but roughly, speaking, what point in a project when there are no low bearing walls have to be modified partitions installing a bedroom or bathroom. what point would you say an architect is more likely than not required? what's level of a project would you advise having the architect versus a contractor alone? >> how do you find an architect, word of mouth and what are the good questions to ask. >> i meet a lot of clients who

have chosen an architect and i have clients that want a tradition job and hired modernists to do that. choosing the architect is really important you know what you want. and you know the style that you want if your job is your remodel is architectural. if it's really just to gain square footage you are having a baby and need the room. if it's practical that should drive your decision on who to hire. i think you should ask anybody that you know that's hired an architect before and what their experiences are. i think word of mouth is the best. if you are looking for something architectural and you check out architects, most architects have websites or if you go to meet

them they have portfolios you can check out. >> my opinion, i'm not an architect myself. my opinion is that unless you are doing something very small like putting up closet shelving you should get an architect consulting help. i will tell you why i think that. that's based on 25 years of being an inspector and watching people go through this process. the architect. i mean an architect not somebody who says, i'm a designer i went to architecture school that's not an architect. an architect is a licensed architect. i do not mean an engineer. we have a lot of engineers that are very good at fixing engineering issues. architects can bring things to a project you can't imagine if we simply did this we can open

space or meet your needs. it's false economy to do a remodel from a kitchen remodel or anything without getting an architect on board. that's my position. harvey is an architect what do you think? may be you don't take that strong of a position. >> i may have to recuse myself. the one comment i want to make is that i am shocked at how little attention most people give to the question of choosing an architect because it's just like choosing a dentist or an automechanic or any of the other people who do things in your life that turn out to be important. they are not all the same attorneys are not all the same.

and the only way you can find out if there is a good match between your situation and what this dentist or attorney or car mechanic or architect can do is by putting work into it and talking to a bunch of them and talking to people they have done work for and asking hard questions. and i guarantee that the morest you put into that the happier person you will be at the end. >> we did a whole session on how to hire an architect you can get that on line you go to sfgov. org on how to hire an architect and harvey and his people did a session on that. we don't want to devote too much to that today. one thing an architect brings to our project from the early stage on is a comprehensive knowledge

of the code requirements, how to get a building permit, how to work in the planning system, what the costs might be. they work closely with contractors who can do general cost estimates. they can bring tremendous value to your project which will mean your expectations are reasonable and readily met or exceeded. you need an architect in the first 6 years when you are thinking about what we want to do. at some point during that period, you want to sit down with someone who's a real architect not just a friend but sit down and say, this is what i'm thinking about, what do you think? is this a reasonable project? what's the ballpark. >> i agree. >> thumb's up. >> okay. so there was a question saying, what point is it small enough to just hire a contractor to do the work?

you want my honest opinion is, almost never. contractors are not designers. they are not architects. they are licensed to build something that has been specifically drawnor detailed. you say, here's what i want you to build and the contractor follows the plans and builds it exactly. if you say, contractor, figure out a way to build me a room remodel or an addition, that's not their area of expertise. they might be able to do it and might do a good job. they are working way out of your field. >> let me challenge that. >> okay. >> first of all from a legal point of view there is a hell of a lot a contractor can do with no architect. there are contractors who are deeply experienced in kitchen remodels, who can come in and

give you a very professional and well considered job. it really depends entirely on the situation. but i think it's an exaggeration to say you always need an architect. although i would agree that it wouldn't hurt at the beginning of considering a project to speak to an architect if you can find the right person to examine the question of whether you need an architect. >> i think it's also important that if you are going to move on with a job without an architect and you choose a builder you should make sure that builder has a track record of working without an architect and has the experience of working out details and getting his jobs signed off by the building department. in selecting the architect and the contractor, when you check references, which is incredibly important for both architect and

contractor, you make sure that the jobs you are checking are similar to the job that you are doing. whether they are with an architect or without an architect. simple kitchen remodel or a now house or a total gut of a 3 story house. make sure the jobs you are checking the reference on are similar jobs. >> how do you do that say give me the numbers? >> you will get a list of references. they will not give you a list of their bad job or unhappy clients. but -- so you have to check that out. >> you gotta call them. >> you have to call them and ask them questions that are really specific questions to make sure these are not fabricated stories. you want to ask questions about the type of job. how it was? they finished the job on time?

did they come back and answer service calls? any professional gives you on their reference list chances are it's a happy client. >> we have to pick up the pace we have home remodel to go through and not much time to do it. early on you want an architect. the best way might be, talk to your friends and neighbors and people you know who had good experiences. there is the aia office who maintains a list of design professionals who say they work in specific areas. interview a few. people are generally willing to do this at no cost. occasionally they want to get an hourly fee. big deal an hour's worth of consultation is well worth it. a couple hundred bucks it's a small expense to pay for a home remodel. you got annual architect who you called and said, can you spend

an hour talking with me. you say, do you have a contractor or engineer you like to work with? if you trust that person they trust. they work as a team. let's talk about designers people say, i'm a designer, what does that mean? harvey, what do you think? >> it could be someone who's knowledgeable and it could be someone who is totally bogus because it's an unregulated field. >> until 5-10 years ago california had a building designer which they did away with. at that point people became licensed architects or not and they are just people. and so there are no longer such classification as building designer in california.

a designer doesn't mean anything. it doesn't tell you anything about a person. >> we contacted a structural engineer and draft and consultant group for ideas on how to do our addition remodel. the representative came and gave us an interview. i would like you to talk about structurural draft engineering groups. the drafting and engineering firm. >> right. >> they gave us a list of re r referels and projects they completed in the area. >> there are engineering firms that have an architectural license and most of the work is structurural with additions with

limited architecture. a firm with structurural engineering that's hathey do best. their architectural work is probably not as high quality as their structural design work. the best situation is when an architect come in and you get an idea of the roject. that architect will refer a structural engineer or mechanical engineer. usually you don't need a mechanical engineer most of that is built by the plumbers. if it 's sophisticated job the architect might suggest you get a structural. >> these are all good architects who has experience or a contractor who says you are dig out the foundation, you need an architect, structural

engineer and need a soils test. >> what you described is a good team if you do a foundation replacement orre engineering project. if you are doing a building addition and hire an engineer and have someone who draws up what's designed, unless they are licensed architects or have an architect on staff or, you are not hiring a designer you are hiring an engineer. some of them do very good work but it's not the same concept. a draft person draws like a cook here's what i'm serving and here's what i will make and the cook makes it. the drafter draws. >> there are people part of the team, permit consultants who know the complex intaccuracies of san francisco builting permit system.

it's very complicate indeed san francisco. may be an engineer should you need an engineer if you are doing structural work and other people. that's the team generally and of course your bank is part of the team. let's talk about cost issues. the earliest things you have to do is, can we afford to build this project and is it within our budget? you have to understand, what is the over all cost? and how does one get through the ballpark figure when they are first thinking about a project? >> what we always do and what i believe a lot of architects do is when someone decides to plan a project with us we break it into 2 phases an early phase, which you could call schemeattic design and budgeting where we do

just enough preliminary work on the project to come up with a sketch plan that can demonstrate compliance with the zoning and building codes of the city and that will give a contractor some basis for doing a budget estimate of construction cost. and then we long ago stop doing cost estimates in the office because we found we get more reliable information by going to contractors whose quality we know. they are estimating jobs every day and they come up with a budget estimate. as you said before, it has to be someone who believes in the idea of giving a realist iic estimat not throwing out a low ball number that hooks the person in

and gets hired later. based on that, we know if the project should be shrunk down or abandoned or enhanced or whatever. the first phase of the job we offer a separate fee for is critical to move ahead with intelligent planning. >> do you have the contractor do estimates at that early stage? >> absolutely. >> they are involved there is somebody involved early? >> a contractor that understands he might not ultimately get the job. >> any job we look at that phase there are some we have done in the last few years it's not like there is a mythical calculation we can put our hand over a set of plans and numbers come out. if it's a kitchen or bath or deck renovation we have done those and know it