-- if you allow them to put in a declaration, we will be objecting to its emissions in its entirety. dennis wholey boehner's and -- that is better than having them on a question by question basis. >> our task should be to eliminate those witnesses who we truly feel are relevant and for whom a declaration is not likely or very unlikely to provide us with relevant information. to the extent we think it is a close call and there is to determine. we should evaluate the different-decoration. -- of the declaration. are their views as to where wendy steals -- stills falls

data -- on the declaration? >> i think i understand the mayor wanting to expand but that is the category i see it in. given the position that the charge -- must relate to the duties. chairperson hur: ok. the exclude witnesses are either inspector becker or inspector

danielle. quit expect a stipulation from parties. capt. kathy gorewood. christina flores i think we deferred. michelle genne and inspector tom kean. we will review and make

declarations at that time. expert witnesses. who will address the experts for the mayor? >> this is a lot of experts for this issue. i know you submitted this prayer to some of the briefing. does anybody become unnecessary in light of sloot recent briefing and your investigation or do you intend to call these experts? >> we would still intend to call these experts and i can do a brief explanation of why. chairperson hur: yes, please.

>> there have been many others who have been disciplined but not terminated on the basis of criminal conduct. mr. chinako is a consulting experts. he could speak to that issue. he could speak to how is this -- it is the sheriff should be treated under his own disclinary section. chiel landstone is being offered as a law enforcement officer who teaches an ethics course at the professional association for law enforcement.

and law enforcement and ethics for chiefs. this is germane and he has the expertise to give it. chairperson hur: we have heard from mr. keith earlier. >> she is here on this list because she can offer important testimony about was this just about a pension on the arm? was this just about a decision to turn the band around and not return to the restaurateur's of the more significant. this premium not about a plea deal. they're about the actual conduct and what the context means in terms of the public official, the acts of the public official and the relationship between those facts and public official's petition. --

position. we need to be able to explain his conduct and ms. lemmon was being offered in the criminal case, would have gone and served at trial for that exact same purpose, to show that there is more content than when share mirkarimi has a willing to admit. we think she is important for that reason. we have heard about -- what expertise where she offering? >> although she was the prosecutor in the case, and that case remains ongoing she is not coming to specs to this case. she is coming as the chief domestic violence prosecutor in the da's office to help you understand what that plea deal meant and what the sentence

means and what it does not mean that they dropped the other charges. do have seen in the briefing some assertions -- the facts have not been proven, there have been set aside. that is not exactly with the pre deal means. it goes to our stickout -- what the conduct was and the conclusion of the criminals proceedings. and as many volunteers to necessarily know, myself a since -- and i can speak to chief still. she is not coming as an expert. she ran california prison and

she is speaking about the responsibilities and duties inherent in running a system that blocks people up and how share of mirkarimi -- [unintelligible] there is one more. varley eastampton -- beverly upton can speak to the communities and a nonprofit agencies that have worked on this issue. a murder catalyzed the community to work together,.

chairperson hur: please, we are trying to get this done. if you could keep torre and -- quite, that would help all of us. >> we take the position that one of the share of's duties is to work effectively with the community on an issue of vital importance. we believe his ability to do that is impaired by his domestic violence and ms. upton is being offered as an opinion witness to speak to that. commissioner studley: i have a question about expert no. 5. so to whether someone has played a part in the actual proceedings. cabriolet use as an expert on

the issues that are being offered. you folks to do this all the time know better what the experts standard corporate really would be. >> i am not sure if that applies to chief still or specific as to the prosecutor. chairperson hur: would you like to address the question? >> i would like to express our objection to these witnesses and get to that particular witness. those one of many who may have demonstrated their and interested participants here. maybe i should start about -- by going backwards. ms. upton was a vocal critic and if i am not mistaken, when we're here last month, she came up and gave public comments against sheriff mirkarimi.

how anyone thinks this type of bias experts should be allowed in spray such as -- sbe was tbhe -- the prosecutor on the criminal case. she will come appear and educate people about how dismissal of charges does not mean a thing. >> i understand your objection to whether the witness is useful and have read says spot -- not going to be useful. is there a legal basis to exclude her? does the fact that she was a prosecutor does not mean as she would have to -- domestic violence prosecutions and how these cases are resolved, how is that relevant that you have a

discussion of where conners was. how the girl case was resolved as -- you can determine the facts and you can decide whether or not this was official misconduct. there is a legal objection to the witness's testimony. >> would they be arguing to the plea deal or what it means to have certain charges being dropped? are you arguing any of that? >> what we intend to argue is that the misdemeanor charge upon which share for mirkarimi was convicted in and of itself does not constitute official misconduct. we do not intend to argue the effect of the dismissal on the other charges. we with respect -- the incident that was underlined what we intend to argue that grabbing his wife's arm during this

argument also was not official misconduct and that is it. that is with this inquiry should be about. chairperson hur: your briefing did suggest that -- try to suggest the dismissal of the other charges means they did not occur. that is -- i'm not hearing that from you right now. >> correct. we did not mean to suggest that. we do not argue that the dismissal of the other charges means that nothing happened. we will be able to prove what happened is what i've been telling you. we do not intend to argue with a legal effect of the dismissal of the other charges. that is correct. chairperson hur: in light of that statement and i can understand your confusion prior. does that obviate the need to have ms. aguliar?

>> if we can reach appropriate stipulations, that might obviate this. if we could nail him down in a stipulation. at least the subject matter would be firm. we may be able to forgo her. i am concerned about what is at issue here is the guilty plea to a misdemeanor. that is not what is at issue. what is at issue is the burkle behavior. not the guilty plea. the guilty plea is an admission of criminal guilt but it is not an element of official misconduct and should not be mistaken for the truth and love

the a good dog -- of the inquiry. we cannot agree to be limited to what share of mirkarimi is willing to admit to. >> no one is saying you should be. you needed this because the sheriff was suggesting that the dismissal of the other charges was evidently did not occur. he stipulated this in open session in front of the public that is not what he is going to say. why do we still need her? assuming you can get a written stipulation on that. >> we need her to also explained that false imprisonment as a matter of law is not co- extensive with turning a band around from going to the restaurant to going home, that would not satisfy false imprisonment. the parties stated there was

that charge. there is a discrepancy between what he is saying and what can be supported by his plea deal. we would like to have that and please understand this in the context that the only state -- we have had access to are the statements in the media. we do not have stipulations or have an interview of sheriff mark renée. he will not talk to us. we need to be able to bring witnesses who are responsive to the arguments we have made -- heard him make all swear. -- elsewhere. if that means we don't need to bring a witness we're prepared not to do that. we're not in a position where we can give that up. we do not know what it is that we're going to encounter.

>> could ask you one question of clarification. is it not your position that the guilty plea to false imprisonment, standing alone is sufficient grounds for the mayor to find and suspend the mayor? >> suspending the sheriff. >> is that not one of your positions that that standing alone is sufficient? you said it is not. assuming it is not. we want to be able to prove the rest of it. >> yes, we do believe that standing alone, the conduct that was adjudicated in the context of a man filling the office of sheriff and being share philip and being a member of the board of supervisors, we think that is sufficient to state a cause of action for official misconduct

and lead to his removal. it is that our case is not limited to that. we also do not agree with the position that is somehow without content that the argument that it is not a crime of moral turpitude relies on a ninth circuit case about whether it is possible to commit without moral turpitude. an offense that can be a crime of moral turpitude can lead to deep trichet -- to deportation in some cases. what is at issue is the behavior and that behavior and the case law is in moral turpitude. we have -- want to be able to present you with the actual conduct that is the basis of the

charges. not an empty form. >> thank you. shercommissioner studley: i woud find it helpful to hear from the expert second witness. we will each be asked to determine something about the standard of decency, good faith, and right action required of public officials and it appears to me that this testimony would be helpful to me. if prof. tillemann -- lemmon is the primary domestic violence witness, that is a witness from whom i would like to hear. i think the issues related to

ms. adler -- aguilar, if there is an answer if she is a legal expert. the best evidence is what we will get more from the fact witnesses and i would be prepared to put that one aside unless and until we feel we have a question, that would hold if that is permissible. and that for me would leave -- whether it is something chief still would add. the comment about the expert witness is well taken. >> you heard from -- will hear from experts 1 and 2. >> 1 and/or two. if the mayor thinks they speak two different issues.

there is some effort to say that they have somewhat different focuses in what they would be speaking to. >> one or two. number three. i have not responded as to four and five, not now, and 6. i also wondered if we have the authority to pay summit declarations. just in terms of providing some clarity and manageability. you would know better, you and the other litigators would know better if that is appropriate. >> thank you. i echo a lot of your views on this. one concern i have with experts over percipient witnesses is experts typically are paid. by the party. if we differ ruling on experts

who we think are not relevant, that will lead to the defense having to as a protective measure hiring experts to offer testimony on the same issues. i am less willing to delay the decision about the relevance of a witness when it comes to an expert than i am my comes to recipient witness. >> i share your view. i do not think we need colonel. same with ms. upton. to me, chief still is duplicative. the experience seems more a relative to what we're dealing with. a local issue rather than the state issue or cdc issue.

as of now, my view would be at most we hear from one, too, and 3. i welcome the views of my fellow commissioners. >> i would like to know generally speaking when you have an expert witness, euless what opinions that 6 -- expert will address. to the extent the other side could prepare itself with a counter. i have not heard from you as to any of these experts we're talking about. i would like to know what specific opinions are you going to ask these efforts -- experts to provide and how do the opinions of this first expert

differ or how is it different from what you will get from chief lansdowne and wendy? why isn't wone -- one of them sufficient? there will help in preparing a hearing record and sending it down to the board. taiex thank you. the witnesses are based out or aimed at the subject matter. the first one is aimed at law- enforcement discipline and the consistency of treatment -- between this and other officers who have committed crimes. the second witness is about

being a chief law-enforcement officer and the ethical considerations that go with that. the third one, domestic violence, fourth one, not running a state prison -- to be in charge of an antheil gerald apparatus and it is analogous to a criminal prison, is that it is at a local level. we're giving just a number of topics that relate to any share of's duties. -- sheriff's duties. >> how are those opinions relevant to the issues in this case? >> they are going to set forth the standards of professional conduct associated with the position of -- the second prong of the

misconduct definition goes to the standard of professional conduct and we have assembled a list of peers of the sheriff who can speak to the conduct requirements from the position of being a peer of the sheriff. that is the legal test associated with the definition of a right conduct standard. i do want to respond to your question about how we have not provided a list of opinions. prior that has to do with a tight schedule we face. at the last hearing where we briefed all the substantive issues and other investigative issues as well. put together all our fact witnesses and found and listed for you all our experts. i have not had time yet to work extensively with each expert to find out what their opinions

are. it is not a matter of i have a list of opinions for them. it is a matter of if they have a list of opinions for me. i need to know they have the qualifications and they were willing to participate. that is more or less what can tell you right now. , that was a way to signal to the share of -- sheriff with the other experts would be. chairperson hur: i would invite your response especially on the first few witnesses we have discussed. >> thyey are preparing expert

witnesses without knowing why opinions will be. , i suppose to respond? >> you can respond -- whether the topics are -- merit extra testimony at all. >> i do not think the mara liasson exploration. again, i do not think it goes to the court in kory here. was the conduct of sheriff mirkarimi related to his duties with turner? i do not think it witness who has expertise in the cellar happens and los angeles will help this commission or private recommendation. i cannot think this chief andy -- in san diego will offer a thing there will help your determination. i do not think that the domestic violence experts have anything

to offer. i understood the mayors to argue that this will tell you there was more domestic violence conduct committed by sheriff mirkarimi that he was willing to commit to. apparently -- htat is not -- that is not going to help the inquiry. it should not be an opinion. i did -- do not know if i answered your questions on this three witnesses. i would be happy to try and add. thank you. >> man just speak briefly to the measure of beverly upton