the situation and determine whether eliana was in any danger. what did you think there would be danger of could >>=wsfws÷ wef somebody is grabbing you and there is a bruise, i want to see if there is something, and if so, i will make some referrals and support the person with what they are going through. >> show you, if i understand you correctly, you wanted to know if this was domestic violence said you could make a more accurate determination if she was in domestic violence? >> i wanted to support her. she was obviously giving me a call in the middle of the day, something she does not do, and she tells me there was an argument and that there is a bruise, and she;ç[ñaq wanted soe support, and i wanted to give it

to her, and i was fully present. >> i still want to know what kind of danger and you thought she was in. >> i think the declaration states that she was satisfied she was not in danger. >> i will hear your argument. >> the declaration says, "my primary consideration was to assess the situation and determine if eliana danger." i have been trying to understand what danger she was concerned about. >> overruled. >> i will ask a new question. what is the nature of the danger you were concerned she might be in? >> for me, it is asking the person if they feel they are in danger. somebody can say they feel they are in danger physically or emotionally, so it was basically an open ended question to just kind of explore for her if she did feel she was in danger, and

after talking to her, i determined that she was not. >> my question was what were you concerned that she might be in danger of? >> since i've heard a bruise, i wanted to make sure that she was not in danger with her husband. >> so in danger of further injury? >> yes, in danger of any further injury or injury in the past. >> were you concerned because you had previously witnessed some concern in behavior by the sheriff? >> could you repeat the question? >> did you have a concern because you had ever witnessed some #=7 sheriff in the past? >> oh, no. ]remfa>> and part of your domesc violence assessment, did you ask her whether there had ever been prior physical assaults in the

relationship? >> yes, i did. >> did you ask her any other incidents? >> assumes facts not in evidence. >> did she answer whether or not there had been prior physical assaults? >> she had said no, there was not. >> did you ask her whether there had been prior sexual abuse? >> i did. >> and what did she say? >> no. >> did you ask her whether the sheriff's anger was escalating? >> not in the way you did, but i asked if she had been going through any verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, and sexual abuse, and i actually, knowing that her language is spanish, her first language is spanish, and we were speaking in english, i.d. find each category briefly and made

sure that i asked open-ended questions to make sure that she understood what i was saying, and on all accounts, she said no, she was not experiencing those kinds of violence. batterer controlling money? >> i do not remember the specific example, but i did define what emotional abuse was. i remember that. >> do you remember anything about your definition, whether it involved be leveling or controlling food or any of those behaviors? >> i talked about the behavior and control and talked about the basic emotional abuse being basically being treated less than what words, being put down with words, with emotions,

physical, i define it from unwanted touching to pushing to slapping to kicking, and sexual abuse, unwanted touching, talking derogatory about body parts or rape or sexual assault, so that is how i define the category. >> great. >> she did. >> she did not give a single affirmative answer to any of those questions? >> she did not. >> did you ask her if sheriff mirkarimi was threatening any harm to her or her son or, i do not know if they have one, a pet? >> i did for her, and i did for theo, and she said no, and i asked her if she was afraid or if she felt she was in any danger, and she told me know. >> did you ask her whether

sheriff mirkarimi had any guns? >> i did not ask that question. >> why not? >> objection. compound. >> sustained. >> why not? >> i am working telecommuting from home, and i am working, and i get a call, and i am doing the best i can see if she is in any danger or need any support. >> so you did not think of it at the time? >> yes. >> when you think that having guns and a home is a risk factor for further violence could >> yes. >> did you ask her whether she was threatening to leave the sheriff or to take their son? i. >> would you agree that the

danger is heightened when the victim is threatening to leave? >> absolutely. >> did you ask her if the sheriff was ever drinking or using drugs during this time period? >> no. >> would you agree that drinking or using drugs is a risk factor for violence? >> yes. >> did michelob's tell me during this protocol, this first 40- minute phone call, that she was considering making a police report? >> no, she did not tell me that. >> ñ[e 3did she discuss what effect this would have on sheriff

mirkarimi? >> no, she did not bring it up. >> did you bring it up? >> no. >> do you know in she was considering bringing up your views to a doctor? >> yes, she did it tell me that. >> did you encourage that? >> no, i told her i would support whatever she thought she would need to do. >> did you tell her that a doctor is a mandatory domestic violence reporter? >> i do not recall. i have been out of the field for a while. >> you do not remember telling her that could be a consequence? >> i do not remember. >> did you discuss anything else other than what you discussed and during the danger assessment but were there any other topics in the phone call? >> yes, i told her, just in case, if anything came up for

her, because i know sometimes women may not tell you everything, and so i told your just in case, you can speak to la casa de las madres, and they will talk to you on the telephone and give counseling, and i told her i'd be happy to give anything else that came up in the future and that i would do my best to help her and supporter. >> did you discuss anything else >> she discussed custody issues. >> what did she say about custody issues? >> she was really distressed and panicked. sheehan's said she had talked to a friend who was helping her with custody issues, but she wanted to know my opinion. she was really panicked that she was going to losehxbnoua theo d not work out, but i told her

that i was sorry, i am not an attorney, but that is her child, her biological child, but i am not an attorney, so i cannot advise you on that. i was more listening to her. >> did she express anything that she was not a united states citizen but that sheriff mirkarimi is? >> she did not say that to me. >> did she have any concern that she was -- that he was reluctant for were to take theo out of the country? >> yes. >> what did she say about that? >> that they and had an argument about venezuela, and that was kind of an argument they had had. it sounded like if i remember correctly that it was an argument that was ongoing. she would -- he would get really stressed for her to take theo. >> but it was not related in her mind as she was talking to you?

>> no. not in that context. >> ok. had to go on a conference call. i was telecommuting today, said this was an between having her that i had to go or that i would call her back if she wanted me to add that i would be i finished, and i said ok. >> update. -- ok. according to the record that i gave you, when did you have your last conversation with ms. lopez in that 11:00 hour? >> i am sorry. i do not quite understand. >> when did you stop talking to

ms. lopez in the first series of calls? >> it looks like we had the 40- minute conversation that we just talked about, and i think we tried to connect, but when i called her back, she was busy, so we did not talk again, i'd think, until later in the afternoon. >> ok. so you finish talking with at 11:00 call, and it looks like there was some attempt to connect. >> i think that the call dropped. and then i called right back. >> i was disturbing that was not my telephone. ok. so the call dropped, but you mostly had the 40-minute call. >> yes. >> are you familiar from any of the review that you have done of the materials in this case that

shortly after she spoke to you, eliana lopez wrote a text to.é. ivory madison that she was going x >> that calls for speculation. >> do you have any reason to believe that that email was prompted by the phone call that you and she had >> no. in fact, i would not think so. i do not know what she is doing. >> i am just asking if you think it is reasonable. you cannot read your mind. i get that. fair enough. send your declaration and says that sometime in the afternoon, you called her back to follow on the conversation and to explore if she needed any additional

support from me or referrals. is it correct that that was at her request? >> no. well, the phone call was, but not for referrals. she just wanted me to call her back. that was something i had in my mind to be prepared if she wanted it. >> and she asked you to call after the prior phone call later in the afternoon? >> yes. >> this is an exhibit, page 83, and it is an attempt to highlight and number of texts that ran in time -- i am sorry. i did not actually come prepared for the paper testimony so that i could give the paper as easily

as i would like. are you able to see the screen behind you conveniently? >> not really. >> use the monitor in front of you. >> you have a monitor. i did not realize that. so i am trying to highlight for you that there is a series of attacks over the course of an hour, and a phone call, and i am wondering if you remember there was any content to any of those attempts to contact? >> i do not recall. i know we were trying to connect with each other. i was working from home that day, and i know that we were hit and miss in terms of phone calls. >> ok. subject matter associated0-úetyh those texts could >> no, i do not. >> ok. the next is 3:31 it in the

afternoon. does that more or less comport with your memory and timing? >> yes. ñ>> oh was this the call where you offered to provide referrals? was 40 minutes, i told her about la casa. i wanted to just make sure i was doing the right thing and helping her if she was in that me no, no, no, no. i just wanted to be extra careful and clear, so when we picked up the conversation, i asked her if there and the other referrals or anything do you want, and she said no. she started talking again about custody issues. that was her concern. >> so when you called her back,

she was again talking custody issues and refusing further referrals. >> it was not that she was refusing, it was that she was just not interested. if i could support her in any way, i wanted to make sure i was doing the best to help her. >> did you talk to her about whether or not she had already discussed the incident with her husband? >> no, i did not. >> do you know if she was planning to discuss the incident with her husband prince >> i do not know. >> did she say whether or not she was going to tell your husband that she had spoken to you? >> she never said anything about that. i did tell her when we started talking in the 40-minute conversation that what we talk about is confidential, and the [hív?c[contents eliana with i have never told

him about. >> so is your idea that instead of calling a domestic violence agency, casa, who could speak to her with her language, she called you, but with no -- she called you prove that was the testimony? >> that is argumentative. >> sustained. >> instead of calling a domestic violence agency for support, she called her husband's campaign her of a passing domestic violence background? >> objection.

argumentative. >> i think we have established that ms. lopez called her. é&>> it was then that you heard another voice in the background, and she called out, "help me, help me, help me." she then handed the telephone to an unidentified women. do you know where she was? >> no. >> and she was in distress. >> she was, what, "help me, help

me, help me!" >> when she asking you to help? >> i was on the other end of the telephone, and i did not know what was going on. >> she did not ask for your help >> i hear her talking in the background, and then i've , "help me, help help me," and then the telephone was a bumbling, and then the other woman was on the phone. >> who was that woman? >> i figured it out from all of the media. it was ivory madison. your testimony said that ivory

said that&'agére they had beeng but the incident for several days and had contacted the police. i asked if they had tried)pt;a7 direct eliana towards any domestic violence places, and she seemed to become agitated. did you think that was strange brew >> i did. -- that was strange? >> i did. it was in the middle of a phone call, someone i do not even know. it was a strange situation. i was trying to the best i could do. did yout why she was distressed about your question about calling the domestic violence agency is%c

agencies. >> did you ask her? >> we spoke for a minute, barely two, so we were really having a conversation. >> but she was not relieved to have somebody else talking about this domestic violence? >> objection. >> i will allow it. >> did you get a sense that she was relieved to be talking to somebody else who was trying to help eliana deal with a domestic violence situation? >> i cannot speculate. >> i am completely agreeing with you. nwxrv7%i am asking for your opi.

>> objection. that involves speculation. >> 0vo there is no foundation now. >> you are talking to me to lie to the cops? and i said absolutely not. i am telling you to talk to your friend and listen to her and respect her. i also asked her to get off of the telephone and talk to eliana, who was saying, "this is not what i want, this is not what i want, " and it sounded like she was close to tears. >> you do not know if she was talking to anybody. >> no. >> do you had any understanding

at all how ms. madison made the leap from talking about domestic-to calls to the police could >> objections. calls for speculation. >> you told ms. madison ask her whether she had called domestic violence agencies. correct? >> yes. after she had told me at the beginning of the phone call, and i have no idea what is happening, if someone is being run over by a car, and she told me, "i have been talking to e

liana ross mirkarimi, and he gave per a bruise, and i call the police. and i asked if she had called any domestic violence agencies or had given her any support with the demands department agency, and she said, "no. do you want me to lie to the police? and and i said no. that is not where i was going. >> that she had called the police >> no. >> so when she told you she had only with did you contact a domestic violence agency?

>> yes. >> and that was a response to her calling the police? >> objection. calls for speculation. >> sustained. >> when you spoke to ms.rpw madison, you tell her that you were a colleague of ross? >> no. >> did she ask you your name? >> did you tell her your name? >> no, i did not. >> did you chastise her for involving the police and the situation? >> absolutely not. >> did you tell her that she was

the one who had heard and disempowered eliana? >> no, no. >> did she tell you that the police were at the door >> no, she did not. >> did she ask you what to do with the police at the door? >> no, she did not. >> did you adviser to tell the police that she had lied? >> no. >> did you advise her to tell the police that she was mistaken or that she was talking about another couple? >> no. >> founded the talk with ms. madison end? >> like i said, we had a very brief conversation, and the way it ended, i told her that i really think you just need to get off of the fun and need to talk to eliana, listened to her,

and respect her, and then she gave the phone to eliana, and then eliana was on the fund. >> so what happened after she was back on the phone with you? >> eliana sounded panicked and really stressed out. she said she wanted to get all of ross, and she wanted me to call and tell him what happened. >> said she wanted you to tell him about what happened and not herself. >> that is what she said. it was super brief. >> that is what she told you. >> yes. >> all right, so what did you doañañ >> i did what eliana wanted me to do. i called ross.

>> ok. and lasted for 14 minutes, it would have been over around 3:45, correct? assuming my mathematics is correct. >> i do not know. >> a kick, take my word for it, and i do not know if the commission has any corrections. ok. at;z:6[;oi 3:45 or thereabouts,n the next thing that exhibit 83 reveals is two texts that i am are found on page two. one is at 3:47 p.m., other is at 3:53 p.m., and they are texts from you to sheriff