where they have a different kind of entertainment license that would allow them to have live, amplified music, additional hours and apparently will generate sound at a level of 94 decibels although the test was done at 74 levels. kabuki has been successful part of japan town and draws people. we want to make sure we don't have more instances of people asking for refunds and not returning. this is my concern at this point, whether or not it is appropriate to continue this item and to let the studies be done even though it has gone on a couple of continuances.

i don't think it is ready for approval yet until we have assurances that when they are operating at the higher level of noise, at longer hours, the sound is muffled from interfering with either the spa or theatres next door. we'll here with the other commissioners have to say. for now it is not approval or continuance. i would like to see this entity survive and prosper. >> commissioner sugaya: and number of the letters of support that we received through the have now taken a 180 degree

opposite, in essence rescinding their approval, now asking that the project not be approved or have a lot of additional conditions which concerns me. they are community leaders in japantown. i will let you get something straight. currently the lounge operates under a limited entertainment permit from the entertainment commission. they don't need any approval from us in order to continue to operate in that mode. part of that permit from the entertainment commission limits the hours to 10 o'clock. and also as i think we heard earlier that the epidemic commission has conducted its own tests and recommended conditions for the permit with the decibel limit of 74. now, in terms of -- that's sort of the basics. in terms of this cu we are

asked in essence to allow them to expand the operation. then they can go back of entertainment for another level of permit. is that right? >>: that is correct. they are operating as an accessory use. by definition the limited use is limited to square feet and not past 10. it is subject to conditions imposed by the commission. limited live also by definition

is a secondary purpose of the establishment. this would give them more flexibly. planning commission has the ability to limit the hours of operation. >>: do we have the ability to limit the decibel limit? >>: the planning commission has no past. >>: in terms of some of the information received from the project sponsor and the sound consultant, i have a question with respect to the first hand that we received. it says set at 93 to 94 decibels. >>: that is a limiter. >>: i understand what that is.

how does that compare with the entertainment commissions's 74 decibels. >>: we were not finished with our installation. when he did the sound test, it was set at 74. because we have live entertainment we want to go beyond that. we want to make it so good that we don't want any sound leak at all. >>: how do we do that? >>: he went to the theater space. two of the sundance cinema managers, michael and steven and --, the vp.

we took almost an hour, up and down, incrementally, medium high, down slowly until we know. at that level whatever the sound set it at. >>: what was the sound limit? >>: 94 on dba and 101 on dbc. we set our system at 94. >>: to the sound consultant i have a quesiton.

>>: we did measurements in both levels. >>: you were in the sundance space. you took measurements? >>: yes. >>: they went up and down. >>: what we are told is that at 94 decibel limit with this limiter was set to you cannot hear any sound on the other side of the wall? >>: the 94, you can't tell. you can tell at the 101dbc. >>: what db level was there at sundance space? >>: 36 on one side. >>:and 94 on the other.

>>: yes. >>: thank you. to sundance -- both you guys. i don't care. the question is, do you agree with that testing method? they're telling me that it is almost inaudible on one side when music is cranked up to 94 on the other. >>: not at all. i was present as well. they came in to make recommendations about soundproofing. that is not what the report is doing. instead they came in and did a test to justify -- now they're here to turn it up to 94-101.

that is in violation with what the entertainment commission has established. as far as the bona fide use of the report perhaps mr. burke will address that. >>: i would suggest that before you leave this topic you give mr. saltar the chance to probably educate us all. i wasn't there. if you read that some report it says that where they measured they did pick up increases in sound as a consequence of what was going on in the lounge area. i am a little surprised here. if you read that study the engineer said, i was asked at what level would noise in the pa'ina loung violate

section 2909b. in my letter i said that section 2909b of the police coude doest not apply. 2909e states that limitations apply in other city permits. what i have suggested -- and i think it is terribly important -- that a reputable sound study be done here by a recognized engineer.

if they want to put up an engineer and we have to put up an engineer and we have the battle of the experts i suppose we can do that. we need to know what is going on. we need to know what sounds bleeding and how that can be stop. mr. saltar can tell you that maybe it is an inexpensive fix. until we know what we are talking about it is unconscionable for them to ask you to give them authorization that they can take to the entertainment commission and become a nightclub and put at risk these two businesses that have led the rejuvenation of japan town. it is a matter of having all the information before you act. thank you. >>: i have other questions. >>: mr. hillis. >> commissioner hillis: we're

kind of the same position we were a couple of months ago. the cinema and the hot springs have been in japantown a long time; they're clearly important to the people and businesses in japan town. there is no reason not to bring additional people who haven't been to japan town. but it cannot disrupt the businesses that are there. your sound person and their sound person need to figure it out you don't want us to do that because you will not like the outcome. i support the continuance.

and come back with something that works for everybody. >> president fong: public comment is all finished. thank you. commissioner borden. >> commissioner borden: i've been to pa'ina loung. the food is great, the entertainment is great. i've been to kabuki also, it's great. we really want to be able to support all the businesses but we need the support all businesses. there needs to be a sound study, a couple of different determinations. seeing it would level the sound

bleeds; turning it up to see a what point it bleeds, gives us a base line. also having one sound report. i am not a sound expert. i do know what is too loud. we want to support pa'ina loung and all existing businesses; we don't want to support pa'ina at the expense of the ot her businesses especially when you had a citation not to long ago.

we need to get to the bottom of the soundproofing issue before we can move to the next step. what you are hearing is the desire to support the pa'ina loung but figure out a way to support it while protecting the other businesses. i don't know how we can direct that the study happens. that is something that maybe staff can help us on. in the past we have required to the conditional use process soundproofing and the like. how can we do that in the continuance process? >>: excellent question. it has been pointed out that there may be problems with the report given to you. >> commissioner borden: right. >>: we do have acoustical

engineers who can come to some conclusions that are identical and determine what the impacts are in working with the academic commission to make sure the proposal does not violate the noise ordinance. >> commissioner borden: as you know at this level, you can keep the music below those levels. it seemed to me like a no-brainer analysis. >>: there were a couple of different things that were done, reorient the speakers, move the stage, also soundproofing done to the interior. i have not seen the building permits i don't know exactly what was done.

>> commissioner borden: if i could ask one quick question to the project sponsor. was it done after the most recent complaint? >>: we took the extra precaution. >> commissioner borden: looking at the reports, i don't anything more from you thank you. what you're hearing is we really want you to figure this out. we want to support locally owned businesses as diverse, interesting music with a diverse artist community supporting it. we cannot do so without assurance that we will not impact existing businesses. >>: you guys have done a lot of work. it's a nice establishment. it looks very nice.

a lot of work has been done to mitigate the sound leak. you are doing a great job there. the promotion is working well. when a party is going you have a tendency to turn up the sound, that's a little bit of what is happening here. but your location this is between a rock and a hard place location; you cannot ask for a more difficult challenging business to put next to a spa and movie theatre, this movie theater is one of the unique movie experiences in the west coast; this is a premium experience and i don't want to jeopardize that. on the other side there is a family wanting to open a business

and be rewarded by their success. i want to see you continue to operate. ultimately the proof is going to be in the pudding. your literal neighbors need to come back with trust and satisfaction. i recognize that some of the work has been done, maybe more work can be done. more time can elapse so that we can review this with more time and see if they have solved some of the problems. by nature i happen to be there. i walked in when you were performing. there was some, it was not excessive.

i did have to take a phone call. i stepped outside. i understand the concern of the neighbors. i would support a continuance. i want you to keep going. i was curious if you can come back out and maybe do some either random testing or scheduled testing. >>: i want to be conscious of staying in our lange and you in your lane. this is an unusual permit application. i have questions that i encourage you to consider or the entertainment commission.

whether you want upon something to the entertainment commission or not at a future meeting. i have no horse in this race. i want to point out a few things. first, i've heard the comment about noise, 10 p.m. i would want to know a couple of things if i were you. the question is, where do we want these guys in the regulatory fold? oddly enough a lot of people complain about people seeking permits not wanting to get entertainment permit. i often think it is better to get people into the fold and regulate things otherwise you

leave things up to the police department. you can say the heck with the process; we'll have recorded music from 10 to 4 a.m. they can do that every night. they're not breaking your rules or ours. the neighbors would have to call the police. there is no noise but these folks could operate. two, a couple more questions i am not clear about. i am a little bit confused about interference with the spa

when i think the spa closes at 10. >>: we never got a specific time. >>: these are just questions. if this space were soundproofed with the neighbors be for or against? the stuff to figure out what people want. do they want to be happy or right? i saw a sign as a place of entertainment and we say it's fine and they never call back. others call for some other reason.

i asked the question that i heard a couple of times the word nightclub. for the record, if someone wants to do that they may do that. i just want people to be honest. those are questions that i had. eventually, if you ever all of you feel like taking a middle ground, think you're concerned about that you cannot resolve here, we would love for you to stop by. the point is we all work together to try to make everybody happy. if you come down and say, hey, these are our concerns which is different than maybe approving or denying or continuing,

could you address this? you would find a lot of deference to you and your responsibilities under the planning code. >> president fong: thank you. good questions and observations. >> commissioner wu: i feel frustrated and confused as a commissioner to hear different sides of the story. it is unclear what the real story is. i place a lot of faith on the long-term organizations there. i want to support pa'ina, it's a great idea and very welcoming. we want to see people coming to japan town, spending their money and staying different hours of the day. i want assurance that there will not be noise bleed issues to the neighbors.

we want to work as good neighbors. i like the idea of approaching the independent commission to help us because i don't want to wind up two months with two conflicting reports after everyone spent a lot of money. that is my concern now. >> commissioner antonini: i would suggest the continuance and i will throw the date of march 28 and i will tell you why. i would like to see new sounds studies done to the satisfaciton of the kabuki people as well as to the satisfacito nof the pa'ina people. if there is no agreement that is something we can decide; i feel we are dealing with reputable sound exports.

should be able to come up with common ground. if mr. saltar would agree and the other engineer would agree, these are measurable. if we get a report that says they were generating sound at the level of 94 or 101 decibels in the pa'ia and the desired amount is -- in kabuki or the cinema. we would know what the number should be exactly. it would allow time let's assume the tests were done and refined at the level at the adjacent theaters and the spa is still unacceptable will give

the pa'ina time to correct the issue. that is the only issue. what i'm hearing is one thing: sound bleed. i am not hearing anybody objecting to the pa'ina, their entertainment, their business. i don't want to jeopardize the businesses that predated the pa'ina lounge and businesses that are important for japantown. and when you have customers that say that they could not hear the movie or hear the noise that interfered with their experience.

maybe some of the testing should be done during the time there are patrons in the theaters to make sure that we shoot the sound as high as we can possibley in the pa'ina and have patrons in the theaters at the time and find out if anyone experiences any noise. i know that it is a little bit of a hazard when you have a business and people are coming in. it certainly would be assuring to you that patrons were not disturbed. that is my motion, and if there is a second, let's hear what the commissioners have to say. >>: the 28th has been cancelled.