information to align your expectations with what's realistic, and then take appropriate steps to see that those expectations are met, you will be a happy remodeler. >> you basically you need to have a concept of what the scope of your project is. now, from the building department's point of view. you are at the building department i see your project when you come get your permit. people come in and they have been thinking about a home remodel for years. anybody here who's done a home remodel. >> we have been thinking about it for 8 years and a couple of months. we getting around to now having a scope of the project and the layout. >> okay and so i guess what i'm

trying to say is people do give a lot of thought. they ramp up to these things we are talking about home remodels. most people give it a lot of thought and take a lot of time. i believe that you have to have your reasonable expectations in time throughout the whole project. you can't say, i'm taking 7 years to give it thought and once the plan's done or with the permit out and suddenly want the zob done you have to keep everything in it's right progression and scale what do you think, harvey? >> sometimes a long gestation period for a project is a really positive thing especially in terms of remodeling until you get to know a building get tong about just, for example, where

the sun come up and how it affects the rooms at different times of the year. you can't do as good a job as if you had just walked in the day you acquired this place and tried to make up what to do. there are benefit to waiting. it might not take 8 years but there is a benefit. >> right. my wife wonders, what is the benefit? why is we taking so long to get the garden planned. >> i'm thinking, dear i'm thinking. i see in the building department i see people who spent years giving it some thought and they come in and they are in a real hurry because they want it done by christmas. and i'm saying, to meet reasonable expectations in the time period you need to understand that each piece of the process takes a substantial amount of time. what do you think about time, dan, what's your take on time? >> the process of a remodel and

getting plans, interviewing architects, getting designs and pricing, hiring the architect, getting competitive bids from all the subs. that's where that cost, time, quality come in. if you don't have any time you don't have the time to get competitive bids. your costs are not as tight. so, i think there is a process that most people don't understand. that going through it it all takes a certain amount of time. that's the process that we encounter all the time of meeting a client, very much in the preliminary stage and looking at their drawings when they are in a scheme phase to let them know their ballpark budget. that's critical sometimes almost always significant more than what they want to spend. >> i would concur one of the

most important things that you as a homeowner can do when you think about a remodel is to get the architect and the contractor involved early on like generally look at the scope of what you have in mind. is this a reasonable project? what is the approximate range of cost? what's the approximate time it will take? you begin to develop a scope of work that will ultimately meet your expectations? >> something that's not apparent to everyone, when you use the term, the architect and, the contransactor how can this be? somebody would say if i solicit competitive bids i don't know who, the contransactor is. it's my experience that almost all building contractors are delighted and considered a

normal part of their business to talk to people at the early stage of planning a job with no expectation that that will end up being their project. and that kind of advances everyone the whole community of remodelers and contransactors into the realm of more realistic and manageable expectations. >> i talked myself out of more jobs than i talk myself into. we go and we know we have been doing it for 20 years and know what things cost. a lot of times that's the last thing people want to hear. somebody will tell them it will cost less. at the prilim their stage where there are not documents to keep someone to there is nothing to keep you from saying it's going to be less expensive. from my experience the worst

thing is to get involved with a client and tell them it will be lower and as the project gets going and you opened up walls and stuff gets discovered and you give them the bad news when they don't have a choice than they have to finish the project. that's the worst feeling. >> i'm a beginner and i spent time looking at the bureau's website first. starting from scratch if i want to do minor remodeling and i have major projects to engage a contrekter. where do i go to find information to get permit approval. is there a website and how to guide what can one do for one self to start with. >> i have a question for harvey and dan. hard to answer but roughly, speaking, what point in a project when there are no low bearing walls have to be

modified partitions installing a bedroom or bathroom. what point would you say an architect is more likely than not required? what's level of a project would you advise having the architect versus a contractor alone? >> how do you find an architect, word of mouth and what are the good questions to ask. >> i meet a lot of clients who have chosen an architect and i have clients that want a tradition job and hired modernists to do that. choosing the architect is really important you know what you want. and you know the style that you want if your job is your remodel is architectural. if it's really just to gain

square footage you are having a baby and need the room. if it's practical that should drive your decision on who to hire. i think you should ask anybody that you know that's hired an architect before and what their experiences are. i think word of mouth is the best. if you are looking for something architectural and you check out architects, most architects have websites or if you go to meet them they have portfolios you can check out. >> my opinion, i'm not an architect myself. my opinion is that unless you are doing something very small like putting up closet shelving you should get an architect consulting help. i will tell you why i think that. that's based on 25 years of being an inspector and watching people go through this process.

the architect. i mean an architect not somebody who says, i'm a designer i went to architecture school that's not an architect. an architect is a licensed architect. i do not mean an engineer. we have a lot of engineers that are very good at fixing engineering issues. architects can bring things to a project you can't imagine if we simply did this we can open space or meet your needs. it's false economy to do a remodel from a kitchen remodel or anything without getting an architect on board. that's my position. harvey is an architect what do you think? may be you don't take that strong of a position. >> i may have to recuse myself. the one comment i want to make

is that i am shocked at how little attention most people give to the question of choosing an architect because it's just like choosing a dentist or an automechanic or any of the other people who do things in your life that turn out to be important. they are not all the same attorneys are not all the same. and the only way you can find out if there is a good match between your situation and what this dentist or attorney or car mechanic or architect can do is by putting work into it and talking to a bunch of them and talking to people they have done work for and asking hard questions. and i guarantee that the morest

you put into that the happier person you will be at the end. >> we did a whole session on how to hire an architect you can get that on line you go to sfgov. org on how to hire an architect and harvey and his people did a session on that. we don't want to devote too much to that today. one thing an architect brings to our project from the early stage on is a comprehensive knowledge of the code requirements, how to get a building permit, how to work in the planning system, what the costs might be. they work closely with contractors who can do general cost estimates. they can bring tremendous value to your project which will mean your expectations are reasonable and readily met or exceeded. you need an architect in the first 6 years when you are thinking about what we want to

do. at some point during that period, you want to sit down with someone who's a real architect not just a friend but sit down and say, this is what i'm thinking about, what do you think? is this a reasonable project? what's the ballpark. >> i agree. >> thumb's up. >> okay. so there was a question saying, what point is it small enough to just hire a contractor to do the work? you want my honest opinion is, almost never. contractors are not designers. they are not architects. they are licensed to build something that has been specifically drawnor detailed. you say, here's what i want you to build and the contractor follows the plans and builds it exactly. if you say, contractor, figure out a way to build me a room remodel or an addition, that's

not their area of expertise. they might be able to do it and might do a good job. they are working way out of your field. >> let me challenge that. >> okay. >> first of all from a legal point of view there is a hell of a lot a contractor can do with no architect. there are contractors who are deeply experienced in kitchen remodels, who can come in and give you a very professional and well considered job. it really depends entirely on the situation. but i think it's an exaggeration to say you always need an architect. although i would agree that it wouldn't hurt at the beginning of considering a project to speak to an architect if you can find the right person to examine

the question of whether you need an architect. >> i think it's also important that if you are going to move on with a job without an architect and you choose a builder you should make sure that builder has a track record of working without an architect and has the experience of working out details and getting his jobs signed off by the building department. in selecting the architect and the contractor, when you check references, which is incredibly important for both architect and contractor, you make sure that the jobs you are checking are similar to the job that you are doing. whether they are with an architect or without an architect. simple kitchen remodel or a now house or a total gut of a 3 story house. make sure the jobs you are checking the reference on are similar jobs. >> how do you do that say give

me the numbers? >> you will get a list of references. they will not give you a list of their bad job or unhappy clients. but -- so you have to check that out. >> you gotta call them. >> you have to call them and ask them questions that are really specific questions to make sure these are not fabricated stories. you want to ask questions about the type of job. how it was? they finished the job on time? did they come back and answer service calls? any professional gives you on their reference list chances are it's a happy client. >> we have to pick up the pace we have home remodel to go through and not much time to do it. early on you want an architect. the best way might be, talk to your friends and neighbors and people you know who had good

experiences. there is the aia office who maintains a list of design professionals who say they work in specific areas. interview a few. people are generally willing to do this at no cost. occasionally they want to get an hourly fee. big deal an hour's worth of consultation is well worth it. a couple hundred bucks it's a small expense to pay for a home remodel. you got annual architect who you called and said, can you spend an hour talking with me. you say, do you have a contractor or engineer you like to work with? if you trust that person they trust. they work as a team. let's talk about designers people say, i'm a designer, what does that mean? harvey, what do you think?

>> it could be someone who's knowledgeable and it could be someone who is totally bogus because it's an unregulated field. >> until 5-10 years ago california had a building designer which they did away with. at that point people became licensed architects or not and they are just people. and so there are no longer such classification as building designer in california. a designer doesn't mean anything. it doesn't tell you anything about a person. >> we contacted a structural engineer and draft and consultant group for ideas on how to do our addition remodel. the representative came and gave us an interview. i would like you to talk about

structurural draft engineering groups. the drafting and engineering firm. >> right. >> they gave us a list of re r referels and projects they completed in the area. >> there are engineering firms that have an architectural license and most of the work is structurural with additions with limited architecture. a firm with structurural engineering that's hathey do best. their architectural work is probably not as high quality as their structural design work. the best situation is when an architect come in and you get an idea of the roject. that architect will refer a structural engineer or

mechanical engineer. usually you don't need a mechanical engineer most of that is built by the plumbers. if it 's sophisticated job the architect might suggest you get a structural. >> these are all good architects who has experience or a contractor who says you are dig out the foundation, you need an architect, structural engineer and need a soils test. >> what you described is a good team if you do a foundation replacement orre engineering project. if you are doing a building addition and hire an engineer and have someone who draws up what's designed, unless they are licensed architects or have an architect on staff or, you are not hiring a designer you are hiring an engineer. some of them do very good work

but it's not the same concept. a draft person draws like a cook here's what i'm serving and here's what i will make and the cook makes it. the drafter draws. >> there are people part of the team, permit consultants who know the complex intaccuracies of san francisco builting permit system. it's very complicate indeed san francisco. may be an engineer should you need an engineer if you are doing structural work and other people. that's the team generally and of course your bank is part of the team. let's talk about cost issues. the earliest things you have to do is, can we afford to build this project and is it within our budget? you have to understand, what is the over all cost? and how does one get through the

ballpark figure when they are first thinking about a project? >> what we always do and what i believe a lot of architects do is when someone decides to plan a project with us we break it into 2 phases an early phase, which you could call schemeattic design and budgeting where we do just enough preliminary work on the project to come up with a sketch plan that can demonstrate compliance with the zoning and building codes of the city and that will give a contractor some basis for doing a budget estimate of construction cost. and then we long ago stop doing cost estimates in the office because we found we get more

reliable information by going to contractors whose quality we know. they are estimating jobs every day and they come up with a budget estimate. as you said before, it has to be someone who believes in the idea of giving a realist iic estimat not throwing out a low ball number that hooks the person in and gets hired later. based on that, we know if the project should be shrunk down or abandoned or enhanced or whatever. the first phase of the job we offer a separate fee for is critical to move ahead with intelligent planning. >> do you have the contractor do estimates at that early stage? >> absolutely. >> they are inlvhere is somebody involved early?

>> a contractor that understands he might not ultimately get the job. >> any job we look at that phase there are some we have done in the last few years it's not like there is a mythical calculation we can put our hand over a set of plans and numbers come out. if it's a kitchen or bath or deck renovation we have done those and know it will cost, x, amount of dollars. usually at that stage the clients more often than not, the client's budget is half that. that's what we find more often than not. so -- good thing they don't move ahead and spend monodetailed drawings. >> the project costs 2-3 time what is the client thinks it's going to cost and takes 2-3

times as long. hopefully you can maintain the quality clients urn estimate the cost -- cost -- there are a whole bunch of pieces of cost. you obviously have the fees of your design team and preparation of the plans. you have all sorts of fees related to the way the city operates. if you are building an addition and it has a bathroom you need plan checked fees, permit fees. you pay a puc sewer connection. up grade fee and skeel district fee. there are fees that are forgotten and people are surprised at the end of the project and there is the construction cost itself which is the biggest but only a piece of the construction cost of your whole project. >> at this part of the process after you hired an architect. they did a design.

a contractor gives youa a ballpark figure. at that point i recommend that people look for another house and see what it would cost to buy another house that has everything they want in it and talk to a realtor for what they can sell their house for. if there is a house that has everything they want and you take the value frathe realtor plus the cost and hassle of the construction. if your existing house plus the cost of a remodel is the same as a house you can buy i recommend you go buy another house. it's a very stressful process. the costs only go up. have you to make more decisions than you can imagine. and it's stressful, there's dry rot discovered. pipes in the wrong place. all these drive the price up. at that point when you have that information, this is going to

cost around so many dollars, that's when you should look around and see is there another way to get what we want? if you are completely a wed to your house and not going to move and the numbers make sense then you move ahead. that's a good time to evaluate the project and see if it makes sense. >> that's great. that's a terrific approach. it also let's you know what you are getting. what your value is you are adding to your house. looking beyond the scope of your own? >> i lost a lot of jobs that way. >> [laughter]. >> i have a little note about how not to save money on your project. get involved and do the work yourself. that's how not to save money. usually when i see when -- i went to the autobody shop and they had a sign up that said the service charge is 85 dollars an hour if you watch it's 95 if you

help it's 75. if you watch in your project you will be in the way, you will have a lower quality product and spend more money and aggravation. >> would it be cheating to inform all the people plus the countless television viewers that you are presently engaged in building your own project? >> i'm a licensed contractor. >> [laughter]. >> and -- yeah. my garden, thank you. >> no but owners say, i can help and i can finish. i can do the finished work. folks, the finish work is what people see. they don't see the framing. they don't see the stud walls and the plumbing. they seat finish work. they see the finished floor and trim and painting. that's where you don't want to

fall. where you have to interface with your building, what do you think about that, harvey? >> you are right. >> i love it when he says that. [laughter]. >> why do projects go over budget? >> yesterday i happen to be reading this wonderful magazine building facilities magazine and here is the article called, why do projects go over budget. i excerpted some things. this is about commercial buildings but also applies to residential. why do they go over budget? first of all because they take a low bid with the expectation of the contractor is there will be additional costs that will bring the price of the projaekt up so there is money to be made there is a prfrt margin. you may have a wide range of cost. you take the lowest one is over budget is a result of the

changes that are made and in the case of this where you take the lowest, people are expecting changes to be made. that's the way city projects are done. it's low bid and there are change orders. dangerous word. >> dan, what do you think about change orders? >> change orders there is a perception that contractors make money on change orders. there are some that do. change orders when it's a discovered condition or a change in the scope of the project. and they always basically if you the analogy a car driving along and driving across the country every time there is a change order you put the breaks on the car. things have to stop you have to reevaluate and reprice it adds time to the project. time on a construction project is money because that's the longer the contractor is there

the more costs there are. they are inevitable on some projects. there are some projects you know there will be changes and should budget for those both in time and money e. knowing if there are details you don't know or areas you will uncover on a project you should have money put aside and time to say that we know there will be money and time to deal with this issue. the better you prepare before a job the better the details are the better the set of plans, the more detailed the work is, the less change orders there are and less surprises for you as the homeowner. >> harvey i knew you would talk about the more you spend up front in organizing the plans and getting all the questions answered the costs incurred make the project go smoother and have an impact on the long un