itself 12 or 15 minutes in some cases, which, when it gets out into the japanese, necessitates some sort of action to but the line back in shape. that part, we can address. there are many instances in the street that are within our control. we can certainly aggressively have our pco's looked at trucks parking, delivering groceries and things like that to various stores out in the cabinet. they only briefly delayed the train, but if that train has been previously delayed somewhere else, it is compounded. what actions can we take? a train that was essentially on time is now 12 or 15 minutes late. we operate on an eight-minute headway during rush hour, so what can we do to recover that schedule? with that delay, with 12 minutes, in theory, you could

have upwards of three trains following each other. if we simply allowed those trains to continue our of the in terminal, those trains will come back inbound. it will decide that we are not going to turn trains, what are the options? you get into the stand by trains, the options mr. haley talked about. you could put buses at the end terminal to cover the gap and meet the train at 19th avenue or sunset that is turning. then you are creating a two-seat ride for the passengers. the options are very limited in a real way we operate the next flow of traffic all over the world in very large, complex systems. short turning, unfortunately, is a way of life. it is not the best solution any

time to offload passengers, but in some cases, it is necessary because the line is in such bad shape after a delay that it does require radical action to get the line back in place. because it is rail, they cannot pass each other, so there's not a lot of ways to get the line perfectly balanced. it requires radical action to fix it. supervisor avalos: i do think it takes radical action because we have neighborhoods that do not have the same level of service or consideration as other neighborhoods, not just about the resources. about congestion pricing, the idea of it is to encourage or discourage -- tried to encourage transit use, but how can you encourage transit use when

neighborhoods have your options -- have the option that is there and is less reliable than it can be. the mta is not going to deploy the resources to make it more reliable, to make people get out of their cars, which i really want to consider the concept is to be a failed one out there. in our neighborhood, said excelsior, we need to be relying on our cars more, so we need to see congestion pricing as something that is going to be more on us in the downtown corridor, the issue you are going to be looking at is going to beat us driving to that area. it is a real inconvenience for our pocketbooks. it is why i think there is a lot of trepidation about it. until we get the kind of resources that are out in our neighborhoods, that is going to be very difficult for us to

swallow, and the mta has a real responsibility to make sure that people have the service they need out there to promote transit. supervisor chu: thank you. why don't we open this item up for public comment, and i will save my comments for when we close up? i will read the cards that i have received for this item. [reading names] >> i write the l -- ride teh l. i do not own a car. about two years ago, i had my right foot ground of to the concrete of a dramatic motorcycle accident.

i've been in pain every day since then. though federal law dictates that the handicapped seats being vacated for any individual that needs it, it seems if the trains or buses are crowded, they are more of a suggestion. i cannot stand up without injuring myself. it causes pain to radiate from my feet to my ankles and hips. one evening, on a crowded train, a woman sitting in the designated seat had four large pieces of luggage. i asked to sit in a row with a duffel bag in my left here and when we got off at the next station, she turned around and screamed at me, "you really only need to go for one stock?" this has not been an isolated incident. i've been called lazy and accused of faking it. the reality is no where near the ideal.

i've been kicked off at 10:30 at night 11 blocks from my home just to see that the next was not for 15 minutes and i'd been abandoned for 45. while other people can simply walk home, i cannot. it is walk and get home before midnight and be in pain for the next three days or stand up on 19th avenue and be in pain the next three days. it is my understanding that muni is owned by the citizens of the great city and county of san francisco. it affects a large percentage of writers, and to say that it does not matter is insulting at least. i'm a citizen. i'm an owner of muni. i thank my driver when i get off the bus. i even grin and bear it when the system grinds to a screeching halt. [inaudible]

>> [inaudible] i feel your pain. i have arthritis in both my knees. i have the same problems. i just want to say that we have no alternative route. if we get left out of the system, there is nothing we can do but rate -- but wait. the nearest line with the four long blocks away. i also want to say that we do not have any shelters at 19th avenue or sunset boulevard where seniors can sit while they wait, whether it is five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, or where we can get out of the brain if it is raining because they will put you out in the rain -- get out of the rain if it is raining. if you take us out of the system, your system is still out of balance. i also want to say that informing us is -- not being

informed is not the problem. when somebody informs you that they are about to rob you, they are still going to rob you. telling us in advance that you are going to rob us does not change the fact that we are being robbed. there is also a general perception in the outer sunset that y turnaround in sunset boulevard when you are only a couple of minutes from the end of the line? it takes about the same amount of time to switch back as it would to go down to the and then turn around. as i said before, there is inconveniencing people with no alternative. if you are going to shorten the line, shorten it at the downtown and where they have alternatives. they can go eight blocks in any direction and get a bus in the direction they want to go. last but not least, i want to say that every one of those 17 trains are packed to the gills.

>> hello, supervisors. i'm a resident of the inner sunset and the author of the chronicle of the pain and pleasure of using the muni system. i'm here to speak on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of owners who could not make it to this meeting, that they be represented. one of the most common complaint i get on twitter, on the blog, on e-mail has been that the turnaround problem -- which i think it's indicative of a bigger problem, which is the misallocation of resources and lack of resources at the mta. others have reticulated the personal problems this causes. they have spoken more

articulately than i can to the issue, but what i would like to speak to you today about is the fact that i think we have been disrespect for a long time. supervisor chu has been active on this issue for a number of years. we have these meetings and hear the promises, and the problems continue to get worse. i'm appreciative of the problems the mta has come a particular with money. it is no secret that the former governor and former mayor alluded the agency of hundreds of millions of dollars. let's try to fix the so we do not have the consuming problem of dwindling resources being poorly distributed around our city. we should not be punishing the west side, saying that it is just a small percentage. it is a big deal because if you expect us to use it, we will use it. if you do not provide the service, we cannot. thank you very much for your hard work. supervisor chu: thank you. next speaker please.

>> good morning. i live on 34th ave. i was just hearing the beginning of your meeting. to get a liquor license, you have to serve the convenience of the people of san francisco, and i would hope that same level of convenience is expected from muni. the last time i got shorts which was the train turned at church, so we all got off, like we were requested may be about five minutes before that, and we waited for the next train, and when it came, it was so packed that i had to stand on the stairs that go up and down, so when we got further out, i had to change in -- to inch in.

i understand that we have the most ridership of the trains, and i think listening to -- i really could not understand muni's presentation, and it looked like you were having a hard time following it as well. it sounded like it is because it is flexible when you get out with the avenues, and that is why the train turned around. it should not be based on flexibility of where the trains are. somebody has got to be running this, and we want to ride it, but we feel like we enter into a contract. when the front of the chain says ocean beach, we expect it is going to go to ocean beach. we should be able to expect to get on a train that has a destination and goes to that

destination. thank you very much. supervisor chu: thank you. next speaker place. >> good afternoon. congratulations on your reelection. i live in the inner sunset. i'm not quite as impacted by the turnaround's, the short term ends. i understand that they are a necessary evil sometimes, but nonetheless, they are still evil, and i think there are ways to make them less evil. one radical change would be basically to try to pull up the rails where they can make the short turns, and if they are short turning, just to get to the part of public works. i know that is pretty radical, the i heard from the other speakers that there is maybe

only two-minute difference between sunset boulevard and ocean beach. again, that is pretty radical. one of the other things we could do is to mitigate the city short trends are have a bus bridge. i do not know if it can get a bus behind the trades that are affected, adjusted at least -- if it does require a two-c travel, at least you are getting to your destination. there is some inconvenience, but if you just want to get home, as long as you can get there, you are pretty much happy. at least knowing that there is a bus behind you or that they will have some buses set up, inform passengers that there will be the boss, would go a long way to help mitigate some of the evil in this -- evilness that is occurring.

those are just my opinions. thank you. supervisor chu: thank you. next speaker please. >> afternoon, supervisors. the problem is when people are on the streets, they are standing on the sidewalks. some sidewalks are very narrow. suppose they get into an accident? a kid runs into them on a surfboard or something else like an automobile. i think the city is responsible. if any body of the passengers get hurt because he or she was put out on the sidewalk. this is unacceptable. i remember the vehicles we have

now, and we talk about the street cries. senator feinstein was there, and she learned to drive this thing, and this is about at least 20 years old, and the vehicle which is 20 years old demands a lot of maintenance, and the maintenance is pretty for on vehicles, including buses. the car stopped a long time because the whole system was not designed right, and market street is continuously trouble. when the in a car goes through, electric wire gets stolen. why?

copper is very expensive. they make big business out of it. first of all, the area where it goes through the haight-ashbury is the most delayed place there is. supervisor chu: thank you very much. next speaker please. >> charles moody, 34th ave. i'm concerned about the turnarounds. i'm just amazed about the credibility problem that muni has with its riders. most of us understand that the trains will have to be turned around occasionally, and when

you are put off a train, another one is there or coming soon. it is maybe a minor annoyance or inconvenience, but when you are put off a train in the middle of the night and there is no train, it is a real problem. as the previous gentleman said, for those of you would not -- who do not get out often, 19th avenue is not where you want to be hanging around waiting for a train that may or may not come. i think that some of the problems could be somewhat mitigated by having some better policies in place. the idea of science or indicators down in the subway is fine, but just have it on the train. if the train is going to not go all the way, have it on the front of the train. they simply do not say that. oftentimes, even when it is going to go all the way to ocean beach, the signs on the trains

say the craziest things. there are some other web sites that have photographs of some of the crazy signs. so nobody reads them, and guess what? no one reads them. they have no liability. i would like to suggest that muni in force some protocols for announcements. the announcements -- enforce some protocols for announcements. the announcements should begin with "this is an important announcement." and we find out at 19th avenue when we are put off the train that that probably was the announcement. also, please fix the speaker systems so they worked -- so they work and have reasonable fidelity. you can do that. it does not require a lot of money.

just have some protocols and enforce them. thank you. supervisor chu: thank you. are there any other members of the public who wish to speak on this item? please come on up. >> good afternoon, supervisors. i am 59 years old. i can remember that these problems used to happen when i was less than 10 years old. i grow up in chinatown and later moved to third and late in the richmond and later to kirkland street and the sunset. even though i was less than 10 years old, the problem still persisted, even in my day. i was forced to learn to read the destination signs and pester the drivers continually to make sure i knew i -- where i was going. they used to happen so often --

be used to happen so often -- it used to happen so often. those little turnouts used to make me laugh because i used to have fun talking to all the older passengers and telling them that this was nothing new and that they should make sure they asked the driver continually where the bus goes. even when i was in high school, when i used to come home from games playing basketball at sacred heart, the team bus used to drop us off 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning by the time we got back to school, and five or six of us were forced to take the bus home on our own, and we always reminded each other to make sure you know where your bus is going. do not end up stranded, especially in certain parts of town. that was back when we were teenagers when it was still safe to be out at 3:00 in the

morning. can you imagine how people would feel when they get some house stranded on these buses without the proper notification? when i ride tehe muni, i notice they have these pre-recorded messages. they should have a pre-recorded message that says, "this bus is only going to sell and sell -- to so-and-so." supervisor chu: thank you. are there any other members of the public who wish to comment on this item? public comment is closed. supervisor avalos: i want to thank you for holding this hearing, and i want to thank the members of the public for coming here today. my district as well has a similar problem. the 14 bus gets turned around

quite frequently, and it is very frustrating. my agitation is based on that, and it is your experience as well. there is a lot of work to do. i do not want to be a constant thorn in the side of the mta, but i think it is important that we raise this as an issue that needs to be tended to on an ongoing basis, and i look forward to working with supervisor chu on it. supervisor chu: thank you. i also want to thank the members of the public who came to speak on this today and also the many folks who contacted our offices. this is a problem. the mta like a way to get the system back on track, and i understand the way to do that, but julie having the experience is heard today about people who get left certain places across the city without clearly the

next train really ready to pick them up and move them forward is a problem in terms of reliability and in terms of the public's trust about our transportation system. the other thing that i do want to underscore is in the outer reaches of our city, there are simply not a lot of options. you cannot suddenly get off a train that was short turn or stock in trends of service -- or stopped in terms of service and ketch another one very easily. in terms of the impact on the riders, you may feel like the number of passengers is low, but at the same time, folks in the district simply do not have the richness of options the other folks may have in other places. i think that this topic is a good one to continue. what i would like to do is continue the item to the call of the chair.

this is something that i think we have a lot of work that still needs to happen. specifically for me, some other action items, and things i would like to continue to seep from the mta -- i would like to see a breakdown of the causes for the delays in the system, very specific to what our -- are muni responsibilities and how many were related to things beyond their control. i would like to understand how much is presentable a rigid preventable -- how much is preventable. i would like to actually see what the policy is for the turnaround. we talked about muni mta's policy, but i have not seen what that policy looks like. we have heard that the policy is if there is a train that is five minutes behind -- are there

other things that are part of that policy that we need to better understand? perhaps as some of the public comments have made, the needs to be better public policy so we might consider not having these occur in the nighttime. perhaps we might want to consider making sure there is not consecutive turnarounds that occur, and certainly, we want to make sure there is a way to say when we say five minutes behind, there really is a train that will be moving people long five minutes later. we often have a lot of hearings, and sometimes, they result in some kind of change, and sometimes, they do not necessarily result in anything you can measure. i would like to see something we can measure. i would like to see the mta work with us to figure out those metrics. do we want to see a certain number of turnarounds not really occur and that five or 10 months from now, we can see a different measurable number?

is there something we can put together that helps us understand whether we are making any progress in trying to reduce this problem for many of our neighborhoods? that is something i would like to see. two final points -- in terms of the options, what we have heard today is not a whole lot of options that are really viable. we heard the idea of a stand by train, but we heard also that it is expensive. we have heard of the option of a potential express line, but what is the likelihood of that being implemented, given where we are with our budget constraints? i'm looking for things that will be implemented all, things that really could work -- things that will be employmentable -- things that will be implementable, things that really could work. supervisor avalos: just to

reiterate that, mentioning an option does not make the problem go away. it is nice to say that is an option, but if you have no intention of actually implementing that option, please do not mention it. that is something that i think is important to note. supervisor chu: with regards to communication, i do appreciate the changes that the m.t.a. has made in terms of improving communications to riders. better communications is not a solution to the problem. it is something we should have been doing to begin with. letting people know where the end stock was really should have already been done -- letting people know where the end stop was. again, just with regards to the options, communications is not a solution.

it is not something that is going to really help with the problem. with that, i do want to thank you for your presentation. i know it is not easy to come before the board, especially on issues that are difficult to tackle, but i hope we can make some progress on that. i would like to continue this to the call of the chair if that is agreeable. ok, continued to the call of the chair. without objection. are there any other items before us? >> no, madam chair. supervisor chu: thank you. we are adjourned.