different, and some communities have really a little bit different. some communities have will be an expeditious for six months. that is probably the exception to the world. nine months to a year. in some communities, it is even longer than a year. one of the things that we have been praising so much is that you really do have a foundation that is your, and many times, we go into a community, and we are talking above -- about forming a task force. those things are already here in some way or another. it is maybe a way of organizing it more clear. maybe there is a determination to restructure -- to real structure going to the next level, may be interviewing some officers, and many times, you

can say, "we already know what they will say." but it is important that the officer is heard. you asked eight -- you ask the police of a serve that works at 10:00 tonight, "what do you do?" and as you get those honest answers, it helps to bring clarity of knowledge and strengths and also areas where there can be improvements, so as to continue to move forward, you start to program this effort as a community approach to where it becomes a solution to where the

law enforcement will say, "we have been working on this, and when it is complete, it will be our program. when it is completed, we have been working on this." we have been part of the training. this is our program. we have been working on this. we have been meeting, and we have been interjecting ideas and interjecting some suggestions that may have some short-term suggestions and maybe some long term, but we are in there, too, and this is our program, and the truth of the matter is, it is a community effort, so that is it. >> i think that you will find in most major cities that a partner with the universities, and they develop out, plants, and it would really be very positive for you all to do, as well, and each one focuses on a part of training, and there is a lot to

focus on. it does matter, and it does really help out. that is a very basic testimony. this other data that you can track, we can track officer injury to see if there is better outcome for us, as well, and i think that is an important thing. cough -- there is a whole range of outcomes that have to do with the improvement in the attitude towards training, their skills, that you can look at, and there is some pretty good literature. i would say we have some of the bus literature at any time. president mazzucco: commissioner hammer? commissioner hammer: i have been

listening what you have been saying, and one of the things that really knocked me over is that this is sort of where korea iraq, two or three as opposed to 20 years, it just blew me away, and dr. marshall is right, what brings us here is that it is happening a lot right now, and that is because either our training is wrong or perhaps we have had a rash of extraordinary incidents, and so, when i see those kinds of statistics after the research you have done, both in officers being injured, which means a lot to us, and it ought to be a lot to everybody, and that people are being hurt less and shot less, that is a winner, so it is powerful, extraordinary, and that is what made me invest myself even more in this process. i have a couple of questions and

then some comments. have the response times been negatively impacted? >> it is interesting, mr. supervisor. we have not found matt as a complaint. if they need additional time, they can take it, but we have not seen an additional impact with capacity, so i will be honest. we will look at supervisor responses. >> i just want to say he is correct on that. the level of performance we would give up would be very marginal, as of his or her particular area over to another area. that marginal delay of the officer in linking up with the other officers to respond to that is incidental to the total

of, of success of basic conclusion for everybody, and that is something in our department and other departments have looked into, because that is a safety issue. this is the number-one factor of the results to have a successful model. commissioner hammer: we have over 900 officers you have received over 40 hours of training, which is a great feat. there is a key portion. one of the things we talked about is, is it possible to build on that? a refresher course, focusing on this, so we can more quickly ramp up and get a cit in place?

>> absolutely. type in that would be an easy thing to do, but do not lose sight about the community partnership. yes, the training is very, very doable. i have said many times, cit is more than training, so, yes, you can look at your existing training program, and these need to be addressed in order to fulfill some of the gaps that may or may not be present, but this needs to be a part of that process. commissioner hammer: the idea that it comes out of training, and the articles that you read, it is not just about training. it is also about developing specialists. they do not encounter those

incidents enough to become specialists, but some of them do. i know something about it. chief, i want to commend you. you have shown an extraordinary openness in listening to new ideas. with folks in the community, you have wanted to your input, and i want to acknowledge that. it could have been a very different approach. having heard all of that over the last couple of weeks, what do you think? >> i have sat and listened to this. there is a component of this that is missing. a light bulb came on a few minutes ago. i understand the partnership with the community. i understand the cit program, fatalities, and this is really

going to be a bombshell, but would not be perfect if everyone was trades like this? where there is somebody upset, and they can slow down and talk them down? when you have somebody in the street that is angry, you can do that? to standardize trading for an officer that has any contact with anybody in the field at any given time, so we really need to talk about, and we need to back this up and mandate this 40-hour training for anybody. yes, the cit program. yes, the mental-health program, but the reality is, when you have somebody involved in a family dispute, where we have had some tactical situations where we really needed to slow down, and the cit process would have been applicable to everyone, has that ever come up? >> some have experimented.

it is not something that has been systematically study, but i will tell you this. i think you are right in a sense. i think you can see this more thing where it has such imported that it begins to change the entire department. -- i think you can see this have such import where it is beginning to change the entire department. this comes from the team in the stages that we are at. the memphis area and a lot of the others, i think that the issue becomes you do not want to lose the ability to get the right person at the right time in the situation departed miggy overtime in an ideal world, we would be able to find it

officers to be able to do that. >> i think they need to go through the same cit training. they're going to come into contact with people who are mentally ill or very upset and angry, and in some instances, it is a matter that we could have slowed down. we could have taken our time, and i think this training would be applicable to that. yes, we still need the cit, but i am inclined to mandate that all of the officers go through that so we will get a better contact with the public. most of the people become into contact, there is an issue to be able to use verbals skills, that will save injuries as far as officers are concerned and others. >> korea -- commissioner hammer: the last thing that i want to echo, as somebody who spent time as a d.a., the system is broken,

and it is costing us a lot, and with the mental-health illness, it is costing us a lot. it is frustrating because it is a revolving door, and what l.a. does with their smart team, which is another great thing to learn about, is much more reactive -- is much more proactive before it gets to that point. then, we can really break the cycle radically, locking up folks when they are sick, frankly, so i think this is the first step, and korea a lot more to do. president mazzucco: -- and we need to do a lot more. president mazzucco: we are now at the time where we should go over this. i would suggest we implement the memphis model with reference to

some particular issues, dealing with recommendations with a general orders, 8.02, 6.14. we probably need a little more review on that, but i will wholeheartedly endorse adopting the memphis model and implementing it immediately, and setting it up for someone to start running at union -- unit and work with the community. commissioner chan? commissioner chan: i know there are a lot of issues, and there are some hot-button issues, and this is definitely one. i see the markings on your paper. we can certainly address them, and i am hoping, i am glad we had this discussion tonight. this is a detailed, there is so much to it, and i think what we

are hearing tonight is that every single piece in here is a road map, so when we talk about a coordinator, a planning person, a working group, it is a road map for this group to start working, and this last piece of it is an oversight, and we can see what is happening every month. i wrote down a six-month timeline, but we can make this a longer time line. i am willing to take the time tonight to work through this and finished it, and we are here. our calendars are fall, especially with this legislation. president bush -- our calendars are full. president mazzucco: commissioner slaughter? commissioner slaughter: i think

we have a lot to do. i have concerns of working through this detailed document. we got a revised copy just this afternoon, and i have concerns on some of the specific language, sorting paragraph by paragraph, but i have a larger concern about when we hear it dr. dupont talking about the need to be flexible as we need to be flexible to are certain circumstances and having the cit coordinator, trying to figure out how it will be best implemented for san francisco, i think we will never a broad agreement on, yes, we need to have cit, yes, we need to be a 40-hour trading. if you only have a certain percentage of officers trained -- so i think my preference would be to have a strong endorsement from the commission

that this is, we are going to implement a model. we are going to set a timetable to do it. we want reports back every month. who is the coordinator going to be? the leadership, and there are so many critical pieces, but leadership is absolutely critical, because if the department does not buy into it as much of speech -- as the community, it is not going to work, and i think there are lots of practical issues that we have to massage, but we have to preserve this in a way where it is right for san francisco. this leads me to sort of suggest that rather than adopt a specific resolution, we have a motion that just generally endorses the model, commences to implement it, and commence to bring it back as necessary. this commission would regularly, i agree, every month, we should very shortly know who that coordinator is going to be, and i agree with major cochrane that it has to be somebody in the

department who has respect and leadership and who will buy strongly in u.s. -- by strongly into it. -- buy strongly into it. i am concerned about us sitting up here going over the details when it is to be implanted in a way that is right for san francisco -- when it needs to be implemented in a way that is right for san francisco. president mazzucco: commissioner kingsley? commissioner kingsley: i am not quite sure how much that in tax -- impacts the cit model that is being used in memphis and that

corps model, so there are some questions in my mind about that, -- in that core model. in terms of the specifics of the resolution, i understand a lot of it, i guess, originated from the occ. there are some time frames in it that impact the department. i would like to get some feedback from you all in terms of this resolution. >> commissioner, my suggestion would be to adopt this resolution, i will go and work on it for 30 days, and i will bring back the person who will be picked as the person who will run this. just give me 30 days to figure

out what we need to do, and i will have somebody appointed in the position, and we will be back in 30 days. i do not think that dissecting it tonight is the best. give it to me, and we will introduce it to you, and we will go line by line and kind of give you a time plan in reference to how many people it is going to take, etc. commissioner kingsley: thank you, chief? commissioner dejesus? commissioner dejesus: i have read this, and i agree it would be prudent to adopt the resolution, and the chief would report back to you within 30

days. >> not to interrupt, but i think i heard the cheap say something different, which is to adopt an endorsement of it -- i heard the chief say something different. having a chance to review it in more detail. i do not want to -- >> yes, i basically said adopt the model, give it to me, let me figure out who will be the coordinator of it. adopt the resolution, yes. i am sorry. adopt that resolution, but as it stands tonight, there is going to have to be some tweaking and some things that have to be adjusted. just give me the ability to take it back, tweak it, make sure we can implement it with resources, and the timelines may need to be adjusted, but give it to me so we can start working on it. president mazzucco: commissioner

hammer? commissioner hammer: i support this. i have not done the research that commissioner chan has done on it, but i want to thank you, it director fixed -- thank you, director hicks. i will be the first to move to amend it, chief. we will work with you. you have worked tremendously, and this could have been a different approach. i think is good to have a working document, and to the extent that the cheap ones changes, i think we will be able to work with up -- that the chief wants changes. dgo's have been talked about,

and then months go by, so i think this will help him do his job, and then we can respond in 30 days to make changes. i would move that we adopt it tonight. commissioner chan: i would like to second that. president mazzucco: commissioner dejesus? commissioner dejesus: it has time lines, and to go forward, i would say to adopt it tonight, and i agree with the changes. if he comes back and says we have to tweak something, i am sure we will have to do that. anything to get it started. it is going to be a process, and it will be a long process. we owe it to san francisco and the officers to have something in place.

president mazzucco: commissioner chan? commissioner chan: i appreciate the conversation and all of the bridge -- verbiage on this. sometimes the stock things because we are busy, and there are a lot of priorities, obviously -- sometimes we stop things because we are busy. this is a complex model. it took dr. dupont and the major about 20 years, plus, and going on this model. there are a lot of pieces to it. if it were as simple as training, it would be a one- sentence resolution. there is a lot to it. it is not written so finite, it

is not in four or five-page document. again, the heart and soul is this -- it is not an four or five-page document. we will not know until it happens. and so, i want to push for that piece of it. regarding the dgo recommendation, height specifically put in the word " recommendation," and sometimes it takes four years to get this through. rather than sitting in we would do this, in a case where there should be a recommendation, so i appreciate this, in a timely way. so if there is any other question, i am happy to answer those questions, as a working on this document day and night.

president mazzucco: commissioner slaughter? commissioner slaughter: i certainly appreciate all of what has gone on. that is why i support the resolution. if we adopt this with the words that are here but with some expectation, and i would say more than an expectation that it be revised, as i said, it is not my preferred route. starting off with the first resolved clause that you talk about, being eligible for the note -- the cic, you have to have 40 hours, but i think an officer that has several years in the department and is elected, and then you start

thinking about the training peace, i think starting right off, that is focusing on the 40 hours, in my view is not the right focus, when you talk about who is going to be in cit, and then you go from things like that which i think our critical, and then sort of as i said, smaller issues. does a badge mean a separate star? or does it mean a pin, as they do in memphis? i do not know. and then going on to the dgo's. there might be revisions, there might not, so there are just a few issues that i saw right off of the bout, so i am nervous about adopting something that may or may not ever get changed over time, yet could comebacker -- could come back to be a big issue, for a resolution that is as significant and important as this one, on an issue as

significant and important as this one, i would hope that we would have more than one day to consider the text, the first presentation. i think it is important that we take action tonight to endorse the model, or that it be the policy of the department and that it be implemented, but i would hope that we would have time to work through with the chie'f's suggestions. i think it is an incredible work, but i think it can be improved upon. president mazzucco: commissioner kingsley? the commissioner wrote -- commissioner kingsley: taking into consideration what has been said, including from commissioners mazzucco and

slaughter, could i suggest that a date that is 30 days from today, could we add another resolution to this? can we put in writing our commitment to revisit the specific language on a particular date? this is basically a road map to begin, with the understanding we will have 30 days, all of us, to digest it and revisit it on this particular date? commissioner chan: sure, i can answer that. i really like that the chief is committed to doing this and coming back in 30 days. that makes sense, and we can even add in the additional

language, but it was predicted that we would want to come back. commissioner hammer: i have a friendly amendment. president mazzucco: sure. commissioner hammer: the scenes like unnecessary pressure, so i would supportth -- e chief will come back in 30 days, at which point the commission will consider those and their own recommendations at that time. hopefully, that addresses everybody's concerns. i do not want to get lost in this. it is a small item, but it is an important one, what commissioner slaughter brought up, and commissioner mazzucco and i have talked about this, the dese