is there a time that might make sense for us to consider revisiting this? >> someone said, 10 years or 25 years or something like that. we need problematic stability. -- programatic stability. we spend seven or 8 months of our year engage in very difficult conversations with very passionate park users. we understand the concern. in a sense, even though we are on different sides of the issue, we are all very passionate about our parks. i think we are looking for is

sustainable funding. the advantage for this particular fee does not impact san franciscans. this is sustainable the more data we have, the sharper our projections will be. this is not going to ed and flow mostly every general fund budget cycle. we will be able to count on it, program it, and we will know what we have. for us, that stability is very very important for the way our department operates. we have certain minimum staffing needs in our parks. we are looking for long-term sustainable funding.

>> about the feet, if you could reduce it, would that reduce people coming to the park. get a sense of what you have about that. >> the data that you have is based on our pricing structure which is $7 for adults and then less for seniors and youth. this is different with our other paid attractions. this includes the conservatory of flowers and the tea gardens. we have only been in operation for 10 months. two years ago, this board approved a minor fee increase for the tea garden and at the conservatory. when did it go from $5 to $7?

>> all of our attractions, the same fee structure. the nonresident is $7 for adults, the resident is $5. that $5 resident rate has been in place for probably three or four years now. we created the non resident fee structure, raising that to seven in the summer of 2009. >> again, we point to some success at the tea garden. as we increased the rate, we have seen revenues grow. >> thank you. >> i also had a couple of questions. the skis me if some of it seems repetitive. there is so much information in

front of us. currently, the revenue feet, what are we able to fund? >> well, $250,000 in net revenue supports slightly more than the cost of three gardners. >> in terms of next year if this fee does not continue, what does that mean for you? you keep talking about recreation centers and all of that. what will that look like for you? >> really, we are talking about recreation centers, gardners, parks. >> we will have a structural whole of at least at a quarter of a million dollars. we will have to figure out a corresponding cut. >> just to follow up on the question, but do you know what the general ratio per dollar for some of these other facilities are?

just a gauge of the cost of the commissions. -- the cost of admissions. the rise in the teagarden and attendance, was that a rise in the cost of admission or a rise in people? >> both. >> we increased the nonresident rate from $5 to $7. again, we -- in 2010-11 alone, we will probably benefit from to -- we will benefit from $200,000. >> do you have the power to set rates and raise them? >> no, since the 1996 charter,

the board of supervisors through the park code sets all of our rates and fees. every time you want to change a fee or rate, it requires approval and we have to go to the board of supervisors. >> one of the issues that i read from some of those that our opponents of the admission fee is what we do about folks that don't have id or who are undocumented. how do we address that? >> with respect to answer the undocumented, we don't require any specific form of identification. we don't require a driver's license, proof of citizenship. and the san francisco address will do. for people who did not bring any identification to the garden, the policy has been to bring identification to the garden.

this is one where common sense and customer service judgment of the ticket taker has to come into play and it has been my opinion that we should be absolutely be giving people the benefit of the doubt. i am sure that you will hear because there has been examples of people who have come to the garden who have not had ied and have not been admitted into the garden. -- who have not had id. this has happened and this is a tricky one for the staff. there is a policy which is that residents are free with any proof of residence. we have had this conversation with the botanical society a couple of times and we have encouraged the ticket staff to give people the benefit of the doubt. >> many of our young people don't have any form of identification and often may not

even have a bill that is sent to their address. what do we do for people that do not have id? now you take something like a school id? >> yes. >> i am looking at the staff, i don't administer that part of the policy. >> we have heard really strong opinions and also different sets of facts in terms of what is going on. one of the concerns is that the hours are more limited. how was this done before?

>> i think that the garden has always had these operating hours. >> so, i think in the past, the garden is in a fenced in area. the garden has operating hours. the hours are getting reduced, there is less access. do you have a response to that? >> i think that has to be a valid point. the garden operates 8 hours. this is open 8 hours. nine hours a day during the summer, seven days a week. i think that there has been -- 10-4, i'm sorry, six hours

during the winter. >> all of the revenue from the city comes from rec and park? >> after expenses. in order to increase revenue -- >> in order to increase revenue, i am wondering what the budget would be? >> we have the golden gate park collaborative which includes the academy of sciences which includes the san francisco travel association, and we are riding on their coattails and starting to feature the botanical in their overall marketing and promotional materials. as you know, the city will be hosting a travel trade

conference where there will be 5000 travel industry professionals. this is a great opportunity for us to market the garden. the san francisco travel association just issued a study last week which you may have seen which noted that golden gate park is the third most visited attraction by any tourist coming to the city behind the golden gate bridge and pier 39. we think there is great opportunity to take advantage of that. part of this is having a little stability to communicate what we are doing and working with various travel professionals and tore companies. >> is this through the golden gate cooperative? >> at the botanical society -- with a fee or without a fee, the botanical society just markets when it does. for example, when they have new

programs. tonight at the conservatory of flowers, this is the opening of the new wicket plants. -- new "wicked," plants. we are marketing the show. the san francisco botanical gardens was named the top five of california. these are always to highlight how special the garden is and to encourage more and more people to visit. >> do we pay the golden gate park and collaborative? >> no, this is a working group of entities interested in promoting golden gate park. >> thank you. >> so there is no lingering concern, there are no funds

being spent for marketing purposes. >> the general manager, -- my experience, last time i went to the garden was about a month and a half ago. my experience walking in was that i showed my id, i was there with three kids, my kids and another child, i don't believe that my kids attendance was tracked coming in. i lingered by the gate about a minute waiting for the next person to come after me just to see with the experience of that person would be. it was a woman probably around 55 years old. she got to the gate and she looked really agitated and she

said the f word really loudly. my kids heard her. i walked up there and i said, what is going on. she said, i come here every day and today i don't have my id and a half to go back to get it. this is the experience that a lot of us have coming here all the time. i what dan and i played with my kids and i showed them around and i talked to a gardener and i said, how has it been here with the attendance at the garden? well, the attendance has been down the whole year. we had pretty good attendance during the holidays. overall, it has been down. the people who come here come for the mission of the botanical society.

it made me question, what is the mission of the botanical society. i believe that the mission is to make sure that the visitors that come here care about the plants that are there. it also begged me to think about what is the enjoyment of the gardens. how many different ways are there to enjoy what the gardens are like. and both are equally important ways to experience the gardens. it is not clear whether that is a casual way to walk through and enjoy the sight which is one that is really well considered by recreation and park and the botanical society. as i was walking out of the facility and i lingered by the gate again, i sought a group of

folks approach. they did not want to pay the fee and they walked away. i did not ask them that it seemed clear that they were from out of town and they did not want to have to pay $7 apiece to into the garden. i waited longer, there was a couple that walked up with bicycles. they walked up to the gate and they came back. i talked to them. they were san franciscans that did not have their id. this is a sample of me walking in and out of the garden and lingering by the gate no longer than a minute the first time and probably two minutes the second time. no one else came to the gate while i was there. this seems to be a real common experience. we talk about whether this is cost-effective, 59 cents on the dollar, to run the administration of the feet.

there are also the costs about diminished attendance, not people coming in, san franciscans and on san franciscans like to enjoy what we have. we are not shari -- sharing the way that we really could. that is my big concern. one of my determinations about why i approved the fee last year was the workers. there was a lot of workers whose jobs were tied to the feet and i did not want to come here this year and say that we did not eliminate the fee.

i want to help to be told so we don't have to come back to have these fees are really diminish the enjoyment of the parks. >> let me respond to a couple of points. i look forward to the conversations that we can have define sustainable operations. we would like to staff every club house. i want to hundred more gardner's

in our parks. i want more patrol officers. >> and we can provide the kind of funding in 2009. we should have done this last year but we did not have the ability. >> i live relatively close to the garden and i go there from time to time, sometimes with my kids and sometimes myself. i also observed anecdotallynope. -- i have observed this anecdotally. at the end of the year. we will have approximately 45,000-50,000 residents who are contributing enough funding to actually keep the guarding reckoning -- keep the garden

running. when you talk about some of the concerns, and i do appreciate the fact that we have had some residents that have been inconvenienced by this. we have had frustrated customers from time to time throughout our operations. we have those that have to deal with the rec center that is closed on sundays. we have to deal with frustrated residents that have to deal with our inability to staff the clubhouse. we can cause we have to deal with those who cannot get a water fountain -- we have to deal with those that cannot get a water fountain. hope we are together in that goal. should that feet continued, we would like to work with you to

minimize that frustration. >> i will ask members of the public to be respectful as people are talking. when you come up, we will be respectful to you. >> this is about trade-offs. >> i appreciate the fact that your legislation comes to us with the idea of a onetime supplemental to get us through the year should this fee and as a result of this hearing. what about next year? one time funding is nice but we have such need frankly, i would propose that we keep the nonresident she and we keep your generous supplemental. -- we keep the non resident fee. >> by rejecting this, it will be on the city to try to do its best to keep the recreation and

park department better served by our revenue. >> i very much appreciate the intention is to support our department. your face constantly with difficult trade-offs. is it money for the health department? is it money for the health and human services department? so, there are many trade-offs but we are trying to make it easier on you. we have a source of revenue which does not directly impact san franciscans. >> i am not interested in seeing more supplementals that we don't need. >> the way to help the public is to get to public comment. i just thought you were ready

to invoke the jerry mcgwire lock exchange with supervisor avalos. -- in your exchange to supervisor avalos. that is why so many of us have rallied in support of the transfer tax. that would help us realize some of the deficit shortfalls in the departments that matter to us like of rec and park. i think that that is an important exchange, not one to take lightly whatsoever. i would feel better if what was before us in the data crunching if there was more data on the botanical society in itself. it just makes me feel incomplete in not seen the evaluation of what their books look like -- in not seeing the evaluation of what their books look like.

this gives us a thorough assessment to understand money that is going in, money that is going out, and what those agreements mean. we are faced with relying on our own analysts to scrutinize the data that is before us and the ordinance that we write that has to mimic what our expectations are. if they don't, then it creates a bit of a confused climate in the deliberation. that is why we are here today. i know rec and park has -- marketing on this but i assume the botanical society has the full disclosure. consultants that are hired on this issue, can you disclose or have someone disclose so we are clear because none of that data

is in front of us and it helps us to round out the discussion. >> you will have to ask the botanical society that question. we are not finding any consultants or marketing experts. people that can market are -- our attractions and bring people to our facilities, that is what we want. what you talked about in your opening comments, but was so excellent and fantastic about this city. frankly, we wish you would support some funding so that we can find our amazing summer camps and recreational funding so you can help us promote the activities that we have. , i don't know if that is necessarily a dirty word. >> i never even reference to that. it is interesting that you would

respond that way. since you did, let's go to the botanical society. this is justice closer we are looking for. who have you hired for consulting? how much has been afforded towards consulting? it helps take the suspicion and our imaginations from running wild to is by having this kind of data in front of us. >> how many people are involved? we have one full-time professional and we have a young jobs now person who we

just pay the taxes for. this is a federal program. that is it. that is our marketing department. >> consultants, have you contacted at them to assist with the advocacy? >> none whatsoever. >> for consulting on advocating for the feet for this effort, has the society contract with any consultants that have assisted? >> we have. we did. when we were pushed, when we were trying to protect ourselves, frankly, and get consultation so we could figure out how to move this forward. that is not our job. we are gardner's.

i am in nonprofit administrator, i have done it for years. we did bring in some expertise. >> is that past, present, or both. >> both. >> can you give us an idea of the dollar amount that is being spent on those? >> i believe that you could look it up. >> we honestly have no info on this. >> all i'm saying is that this is public record. this is 7500 a month. >> ok. thank you. >> why don't we open the item up for public comment. just a couple of ground rules. i know this is a heated conversation and controversial situation. what i'm going to do, if you hear your name, please line up

in the center. the public comment will be two minutes each. i would ask for members of the public to do, as speakers are coming up, whether you agree or disagree, please refrain from clapping, hissing, making noises said that we can get through public comment. ok, here we go. >> good afternoon, board members. i present -- i am here today to