one of these has been closed all year. one of our budget goals is to keep the facility closed as a way of saving money, but we also have vacancies in the of the jails because of the jail population. why is our geo population declining? i can really give you a good answer. the geo population, to a large degree, is based on police activity, and they do not always know what the police are up to, where their priorities are, where their priorities have changed. when chief gascon came in, it shot up by about 400 people. i do not know what his

priorities will be with the direction he will be receiving, but typically after a new chief of police comes in, our population does tend to go up. that is mainly a historical operation. on the far right hand of that chart, there is a red line. it may not appear red. this is a projection based on the governor's realignment proposals, and this has been discussed by this committee, but most dramatically, the governor's realignment proposal, which has been signed into law, what it would dictate is that people resentenced -- who are sentenced to state prison for nonviolent, nonsexual, and non

serious as defined will not go to state prison. they will go to local county jails. we are transferring people for the crimes that would remain in san francisco. some people who are charged with essentially drug offenses to be served up to a seven-year term, and it is not clear if someone would get at seven-year jail term the maximum amount of time

was one year. so we are going to start to save prisoners who are serving longer terms and that aggregate's. as state prisoners start serving their time in the county jails, this one at a factor to the population will cause the population to build. now the governor has committed in writing, and i have what he has signed. he does not plan to pay $1 on the dollar, but he does nothing

to pay this for a 360 day year. our cries -- prices are about twice that. supervisor chu: currently, you think the reimbursement would be about $25,000 per year? >> the full year, yes. supervisor chu: and our costs are about $40,000? >> $48,000. supervisor chu: you had mentioned for the non-violent, non serious crimes. do you happen to know if there is an average lead the time --

lead in time? >> i have not done that yet. typically, people are serving more than that on average. supervisor chu: thank you. supervisor mirkarimi. supervisor mirkarimi: is this anticipated in the anticipated budget about what it would beif ab 109 takes effect, and we will have to cover the unreimbursed portion? >> yes, i am glad you asked that question. there are some calculations based on the assumptions, and

there is a graph or a box chart the we think it shows you what will be in the next is clear. $2.60 million. it is always cheaper to have them in jail alternatives these require monitoring and home detention, because that is also relatively cheap. and our proposal would be to increase this by $3.60 million.

this is like a wish list. however, for example, judges could say, "no jail alternative ." caught if those things were going to be reduced, and we do have, i would say, a very good working relationship with the courts on the programs that we have. we also love and service unit that goes out and apprehends people i think we will be able to work with the court's -- courts. supervisor mirkarimi: but there

is a combination that would take this problem back over. >> yes, i did those numbers add up yes, we will be back where we were this current year. supervisor mirkarimi: debut. >> you are welcome. supervisor mirkarimi: i am finished. supervisor chu: where you are talking about next year as opposed to the following year, it looks like you are going from

year to year, in your covering more. it looks as if it is at a cost of $7.50 million going down to less than 200,000. >> this is my department's ceo. >> good afternoon, supervisors. the capital programs have not been fully approved. this is why this number is down.

>> -- supervisor chu: so that is not finalized. >> no. >> -- currently, we are there. supervisor chu: is there something like a hybrid? >> we are providing all of the security. supervisor chu: just the average age.

this may be a question for the mayor's office on this. i am wondering if this trend is representative in the dollars. >> this trend is not reflected on the supplemental melhuse. -- values. it is to correct the budget for a current fiscal year, so that is required to operate, status quo operations, and the adjustments will be felt next year.

supervisor chu: there is a downward trend, it looks like, from april through june of this year. is that correct? >> supervisor, maybe a share to speak with it. we have budgeted. there was a decline in the population that started about this time last year, we budgeted a significant amount of savings and probably a little bit too much savings we took it out of

their budget last year. and we have been able to keep the geo closed, so there is a slightly different level. this is over and above that level. we're at that number compared to history. >> maybe i am just asking it the wrong way, it looks like the population trend is trading down, so i wanted to make sure about. >> that is my understanding.

supervisor chiu: -- chu: how are we want to be capturing what we think the changes will be because if we anticipate we're going to have an additional $9 million, and we probably would be getting maybe the best of 50% of the reimbursements back, how are we treating that? >> that is a great question, one that i have been spending a lot of time on, there are a lot of moving parts that take policy decisions the public defender,

the health department, the whole system of departments that will feel an impact from the realignment changes to figure out what these are, and we will have to make an assumption about the possibility is going to be at the jail. we're working very closely with the sheriff's department, and we need to resolve this in the next essential two weeks. budgetary impacts are going to depend on what level we think we can estimate the jail population, to what extent we

can handle this year population, and three, the level of funding we do or do not get from the state to accommodate the process. >> >> hopefully, with some information about the governor, but it will be an educated guess that will certainly have some impact on the general funds. i think is safe and we have to make educated guess and then adapt as the state's plan to become clearer during the next fiscal year. supervisor chu: thank you, madam chair. to the budget office. there has been a strategy proposed for the sheriff's

department, such as changing out the jail health services, perhaps outsourcing on a contract for a different security service for some of the buildings. is the mayor's office contemplating as? so we can be prepared for this discussion? >> we are not contemplating a geo health proposal at this point. -- a jail health proposal. it has been proposed by the health commission. a security proposal, so that is an option that is on the table. i know that the mayor is going to want to talk to all of you about that before june 1 and have that discussion.

that is compared to the jailhouse proposal. you mentioned it was potentially more tolerable for a lot of reasons. number one, the way it has been proposed by the health department, this version of what they have sent to the commission, it would not involve any layoffs. the ip's at the clinics would be reassigned, and then it would release some share of staffing to be returned to the jail to offset staffing needs due to realignment, so i think that is the primary kind of policy idea if, and i think the mayor will want to have discussions with you about that over the next couple of weeks. >> i wonder if there is a

discussion. about how there might be some savings things they have taken and done before, like the transfer units, dollar for dollar, this would still be a savings if those relationships were coordinated. -- supervisor mirkarimi: >> we were in the process of refreshing that list and looking at the opportunities. with the comptroller's office, i would be interested on the take as well. a couple of the issues around

these proposals, and we have looked at the pump at pass, and we have spent some significant time to this and made adjustments back-and-forth over time about whether the sheriff or the police department is staffed in various functions. the factors that come into play are who can do it more cheaply and also staffing availability. we're going to have a crunch of availability of staff either a the sheriff's department or the police department, to perform their existing functions, which means we would have to hire new people to perform those functions, and there is the example of station transfers, and we had to hire new sheriffs to perform those functions. there is not really a cost savings, so there is a lot of push and pull on the math on whether or not those are actual

budget savers, even in cases where they may be more cost- effective in a perfect world, so that is a great question, and there is a lot of analysis that has to go into figuring it out. supervisor mirkarimi: if i can swing this back, and i want to talk to mr. hennessy, retirement and academy classes, we have not had that discussion with the sheriff about the forecast for prospect on the issue of retirement and bringing in new deputy sheriffs. maybe we should get something for that, as well? >> supervisor, we had approximately 20 people leave the department this past year, and we do not really anticipate a higher rate of people leaving

next year, in the next fiscal year, so our attrition rate seems to me on a relatively steady bases. we may have to hire additional staff based on the alignment, in the jail population. with our current staff, we have been able to redistribute staff and drive down our work time rates considerably, and at one point, 1.5 years ago, if we had to open up the small jail in san bruno on a very rapid basis, we were able to do it entirely on overtime, and if we were keeping the facility open on a longer- term basis, which the alignment proposal seemed to suggest we will be, we will have to start hiring additional japanese shares, because it would be cheaper to have full-time

employees than be running the place on overtime. supervisor mirkarimi: is there a theory that with the 20 you are looking to lose, you would be hiring and 20? >> it kind of depends what happens with hospital security. if hospital security is removed from my department, then the deputies who are currently assigned there can come back in and replace the 20 people who are leaving. if the debate over hospital security carries on for another fiscal year, then i would have to hire people to open up the small jail as our population rises. that is one permutation. supervisor mirkarimi: mr. wagoner, i am curious. if the sheriff is able to go on

and bring new deputy sheriffs, and there is a range, a modification on the security potentially, could that not then begin the discussion of whatever additional staffing, how we might be able to complement the police department, sort of actions, tasks, and activities, because the question of a dollar is a dollar, it is still a savings. without detracting from their current duties that they are assigned to do. >> sure. the issue would be that it may be cheaper to perform a service with sheriff's deputies than police officers. however, unless we have an

excess of sheriff's deputies, which it looks likely that we will not, we hire sheriff's deputies to perform a service to do something currently done by police officers. we are paying the salaries of the police ulcers and those going to work patrol functions or whatever they are going to do. it may be more cost-effective for that particular service to provide it with sheriff's deputies, with budgetary costs if we need to hire additional staff and have a greater number of total staff in the city in order to transfer a function to the sheriff's department. supervisor mirkarimi that makes sense. that is clear as day. this is what is before us, too. through a program or through the process of bringing on academies or lateral hires, we are still

doing it through that pathway, as well. if those were positioned that could be assigned in other locations, a sort of pressing or priority position. that is all i was looking for. >> i think that is a good point, and the fact that there is flexibility on both sides of the equation, i did there is some ability to look at what is most cost-effective, so to the extent that we have that flexibility, it is absolutely a good point. supervisor mirkarimi thank you, thank you. supervisor chu: thank you. why do we not open this up to public comment? other members of the public who would like to comment on this item number two?

>> ♪ the sheriff's department has been budgeted, all around the town, when there is budget money love they have been made blue, and i thought you knew when will the budget for the sheriff's department be loved? ♪ supervisor chu: is there any other public comment on this? seeing none, public comment is closed. supervisor wiener: i want to thank you for your years of service. 31? >> it will be 32. supervisor wiener: in a city where there is often a lot of

drama, the sheriff's department, a political drama, i just wanted to thank you. >> thank you, supervisor. i appreciate it. supervisor chu: thank you, supervisor wiener. i am sorry. i do have one more question for you. i see money in a great program will could you just explain what this is for it? >> yes, that is the funding we use for alternative programs inside the jail and outside of the jail. under management. -- anger management. supervisor chu: thank you,

supervisor wiener, and we will have one more budget meeting before we are done. if we have no other questions from the committee at this point in time, can we get to this item to the call of the chair? ok, thank you very much. do we have any other items before us? >> that completes the agenda. supervisor chu: thank you. we are adjourned.