attendance area revisions and the key in roman date for 2012 to 2013, -- the key enrollment date. and then we would begin in september and later. commissioner: if we have some questions, we can have the meeting, but my tendency is to want to cancel it. >> on that note, i have also been revised the october 10 is indigenous peoples day, i am sorry, so it is a holiday, so we will come back to you to suggest a different date.

commissioner: if you have any comments, we can do that and then go to public comment, and commissioner mendoza has to leave early. any clarify questions? anybody? no? i have some questions about the simulations, which are very interesting, and to refer back. so i asked some questions -- these questions give me some -- these simulations were done with the current year data, that being the only data we have, i presume, so it shows about 100 students, ctip tie-breaker

schools will apply to presidio and another, and they did not get in. can you explain that? >> the total requests, or all requests, and whether they are rated number one or -- commissioner: this is the only data i have. but this is what you have given me. this is how many requests that were admitted under the current tiebreakers and would be under the two proposed tiebreakers. >> yes, so in the data from the last meeting, it shows all requests, so the reason that the numbers are so much smaller on the simulations is because there were only 600 -- exactly. it commissioner: can you give us on duplicated -- what i want to know, and this seems to tell mate that it does not matter in

what order we put the c y-- ctip tie-breaker, but this is not enough data to tell me how effective this has been for the students that we want to give preference to, so, you know, in other words, if all of these students who have the ctip students actually got their first or second choice, then the question is, what are not more kids using it, or anybody that could, etc., and it does not tell us anything i asked. do we know if we can get more demographic data on these students? what i would really like to note -- to know, their

socioeconomic status, we want to know, and also, and eventually, as something we want to know later, we actually want to note -- to know whether they are adding to the diversity of the school. >> we can do as part of the monitoring look to see what is the democratic profile of what they are requesting to help meet the board's goals of creating more diverse enrollments, and i will deftly make a note of that and include that in part of the work we are doing under monitoring. to answer the question about choice, like our children getting their choice, yes, they are. they are. there were only 622 children applying to sixth grade who lived in these areas, and the board deliberately did that.

you divide it into quintiles. it would be less impactful. the number is always going to be a small, and i think your question about what schools that are requesting, we can get back to you on that, but in terms of if they are getting their choices, yes, they are getting their choices. commissioner: anyone? it does not look but there are very many people. >> hi, i have a public comment on the elementary attendance area.

good afternoon, members of the board. my name is -- and i am the treasurer of a group. i am also a parent with children at of broader wrote -- at álvaro. it is 30 of streets, not 29 street. the current neighborhood school map does not reflect our neighborhood. it arbitrarily ships the boundaries by two blocks. we believe the neighborhood a sign the map were created by demographers who live outside of san francisco who may not understand the fondness and attachment people have towards the neighborhood. the members of the valley strongly identify with the valley in our community as the neighborhood. from the date of these school assignments, it appeals --

appears that it is not oversubscribed by neighborhood requests. there were 88 openings for kindergarten this year. there were eight requests for attendance and 30 request from -- from families with siblings. 38 from the neighborhood. given this data, we respectfully request that the attendance area should match the definition of the valley. we appreciate and respect the board of education, and we know that your job is very difficult and very complex. we think you for listening to our community members and including their voices in this process. thank you. >> hi, good evening. ad hoc committee on assignments and all of the diehard ad hoc committee attendees. my name is worth.

i am here to represent the pac because of the members are out of town. oh, carol ann, yea. addressing the transportation issues, i think that has been something that we have recommended to the board and that people in the form spoke to a lot, the concern about some of the feeder school was being really much further away or difficult to get to on muni, and it is great to look at the data in terms of the time it takes and transfers and stuff. people do recognize the reality of the budget situation and the lack of predictability and an inability to guarantee the transportation services by just recognizing there are very specific schools that need them. i know that they will be looking

at -- looking at that really a lot in the future. the pac really works hard when making recommendations to look at the overall goals, specifically supporting student achievement, apple jacks says, and accountability, so it is through that lens that we urge the board to prioritize the equitable access to opportunity in middle school and still recommend this or some other equity mechanism be placed higher in order as a tie- breaker so that it would be siblings, then the equity mechanism, and then the feeder patterns, and there are a couple of reasons for that, even though looking at this chart that the simulation does not show a difference. we think that there is a couple of really strong rationales for us thinking that equity should, above the feeder patterns appear -- feeder patterns.

for those who do not have a middle school until a new one is build, that is someone apparently random, assigning a certain elementary schools to certain middle schools, some of which are very far away. some parents may decide that is not the school i want my kids to go to a and should get some sort of priority mechanism to have a higher probability of getting a choice of a different school rather than having to go 7 miles, even though a lot of people would love to get in there. parents choosing an elementary school now it, basically looking at your four-year-old and deciding what school is going to work. you only know so much about your for your role and how they aren't going to learn. when looking at fifth graders, you know a lot more, and people might change their mind.

they may choose a school because they know that they have a feeder. but the time of this a great, they may have a very strong knowledge of their child's needs and believe that they will do better in a different middle school, and in any parents wanting to choose a school other than their feeder school, we believe that the equity mechanism should really kick in for families, whether it is ctip or another. that should be higher. i hope i am making sense. and then, finally, what we have not really seen addressed in the middle school part of this is something similar to what you were just talking about on in evaluating and monitoring of the elementary assignment patterns work. it might be there, we just have not seen it, the mechanisms to evaluate and modify how beefeater patterns are working as they start kicking in, and

what are the criteria for revising them, because that is also going to be incredibly complicated. and finally, i think what we want, and i know what another group wants, and i sincerely believe that what everybody in this warm ones is to be talking about how to address really strengthening all of our middle schools for all of our students, and we cannot wait to start talking about that stuff instead of this, but in that context, we really want to see a very detailed action plan for addressing specific challenges at specific schools with a real, clear strategies for how to move forward with a timeline attached to it so we can also focus on that and support it and hold us all accountable for that. thank you. >> hi, my name is -- carter.

i am here representing my 11- year-old for the third time. i still have a lot to learn about the figure patter and how it works, and i will do that, but in the meantime, i just reduce it for my son, he was placed in a school across town. i have to learn about this ctip thing, but i hear you talking about socioeconomic status. my husband is a carpenter, which is not really great news, but we live where there is one school, and he is placed across town, and i am thinking, where do we cut fall in this? i want to be sensitive, multi- cultural, but i in a minority as a white person, and i feel that

i am very victimized right now. i cannot drive across town. keeping the kids. they are all going to get there. he is the only one going across town to a school where he does not know anybody. so i just wanted to come down and say hi and make my presence felt. commissioner: can you tell us what son, -- what school? thank you. ok, now, does anyone have any comments they want to make?

>> continuing to bring to light and make things more clear for us. i just want to go back to the sibling, a feeder, ctip, and what was done, whether it really made a difference. it was the decision to put feeder over ctip. this is setting a pattern of what is to come, but there is something to be said if it is not going to make a difference, so if you can just expand a little bit on the and help me to understand that, thank you. >> we agree completely.

the foundation about this is all about equity and access, which is why we are doing the feeders, because we think they provide more equity and access than what is existing in our system, and a lot of choices for those not contiguous, i know where it was talking about recommendations built on historical trends patterns, and the number of families who are actually choosing to and attending these schools, and we want to continue to support them. just to put some context behind this, we think it is equitable and will provide equitable access. why we are recommending the feeders above the ctip is that we want to encourage through a choice system the development of these feeder patterns.

parents will only get beefeater tie-breaker if they have actually listed it as a choice. otherwise, the tie-breaker will not exist, so in the event that a parent lists as a choice a small that supports the kb amica 8 feeder that we are eventually going to, they would get this tie-breaker -- this kindergarten through eight tie-breaker feeder. i think is important. if they do not was the choice, there is no tie-breaker. they are not compelled to request schools that are part of the feeder tie-breaker, but if they are, we want the system to support bop what we are trying to achieve over time, and, again, we do believe the whole foundation of this is equitable. i hear and understand what the

others are recommending, and we believe that this peter proposal is grounded in equity and access, and we want to structure it in such a way that it supports through a choice process the development of these feeder patterns, so by the time we get to an initial offer, we hope the entire system will be organized around creating this free choice, and that is why we are recommending it. does that answer your question? commissioner: do a follow-up on that. the simulations are quite startling. not only is there absolutely no difference between putting ctip above or feeder first, but the difference between that or not having the feeder pattern at all is pretty -- so that is quite stunning. however, this is only if they

happen to choose or make a request for a score that will be a feeder, right, so that is a big weakness of the simulations. understanding that you have no other data. i understand that perfectly, but that means that we have to try to take, you know, analyze something and make some presumptions, lots of presumptions about what may happen in the future, so i just want to suggest that if there is no difference, and then i do not see why we should not " -- " put ctip above feeder. to change the choice patterns

into change in attendance patterns. but since we do not know yet, having no data that takes into account feeders, it seems to me that a more important message is how we put what we value into the order in which we place these things, so i am with the let's put the equity issue above the feeder issue, because, actually, i have been kind of nervous about -- i think we have made a lot of presumptions about people wanting these proposed so-called things, but i am not sure. we made a judgment about what we thought people would value without actually having any data on which to do that, so i still think since there is absolutely

no data with which to make such an analysis more than what we have here, and i appreciate that we have tried that here, that that is what we ought to do, because that would send the message that i am more interested in sending. also, and this is just an idea that came to me, the things we are talking about tonight, the elementary attendance patterns and feeder areas and monitoring make me think that one of the things we really ought to say is that particularly the order in which we put tiebreakers is the kind of thing that we may want to change over time during the transition period based on what the monitoring tells us and making sure that we ask the right questions, like how does this equity issue work? commissioner mendoza? commissioner mendoza: thank you. my question was about the ctip,

and we have pulled the data on that to see where they are currently going. is that correct? do we know where our c it is not fresh in my memory. you can see they are distributed in this process throughout middle schools, but we can certainly do that. good >> i am curious where they are and if the facts as they have an -- if the schools would be the ones they would end up having priority because they were the ones they were going to feed them into, so whether they were feeder, they are going to end of a the school, because they are trying to -- end up at the school because they are trying to do the pattern many of our families are choosing, so i

am curious if that will -- it is not going to show a difference how we place a. is it really going to matter looking at some of the patterns that have happened if they are going to get placement any way? that would be helpful for me to consider also, and i am with the commissioner in terms of what our values are. i guess theater is the pattern they want to consider. it who -- feeder is the pattern they want to consider. it is nice not to have to

change it again or to switch priorities for those who do not stay in touch with what is happening, so i would love to have a consistent process, being able to make the adjustments but to have something that people know there is some consistency on that, so my decision is getting sorted out. new thank you superior -- thank you. >> i am leaning towards not changing the order of preferences, as recommended by the superintendent. i feel like we do not know what the impact, and i think the one thing we do know is that all of the systems we have tried in the

past have had unintended consequences but we did not envision, so i am worried about doubling down on this mechanism that we do not understand. we have no data on its. this was supposed to encourage people in areas where people who were not participating in the choices. it was supposed to give them an extra encouragement towards participation. do we have any data that shows whether there were more applications? i want to see what the impact was before we start stumbling down on who is using it. i was saying and it's totally

the only people i know who receives the preference are middle of -- i was saying the only people i know who received a preference are middle-class people. i am not convinced it has the equity of fact we are assuming it has a very good >> i think that is very true, and the other thing is i do not think the choice is between equity and feeders. i think that is an important thing. it is very difficult to do analysis until the children turned up in school, because there's so much movement. we agree it is hard not knowing how effective this is, and i do not think we will have a full

chce until january. our specific guidelines on the factors we should consider when we are monitoring the feeder patterns, particularly in the event that if schools open or close but we would consider looking at enrollment and balancing the availability of facilities, the coherence of highways, and this was actually tilted in as part of the ongoing evaluation and with specific guidelines, because it is true we cannot contemplate unintended consequences, and we know we have to constantly monitor it and stay on top of fat. -- on top of that. i think the commissioner made a good point.

it is a limited amount of data. that is why we were not going out and saying with with the simulations told us. this was just to take a look of limited data to see if it would tell us anything other than what we were already contemplating. we are sharing it as a preliminary finding, and i will see what information we can get tomorrow. >> i have two comments and three questions. i want to emphasize the 4/8 about families wanting detailed action plans. it seems to me we have a good plan about language orientation.

i really want to urge the we focus on these detailed plans for honors differentiated instructions, specialization, because of the feedback i am getting is the families want to know is what they can expect from a particular and middle school three or four years down the line, so i think that is really important in planning. on the transportation issue, i think it is worth mentioning that we have a good analysis of how long it takes and how many transfers, but there is also an expense involved, so this is an argument in favor of neighborhood schools. we are talking about $20 a month times nine months, so that is