it obviously contributes to the vibrancy and the diversity of the neighborhood. the result of this situation of not being able to get these permits is we think loss of business for the businesses' reduced tax revenue, fewer opportunity for performers and for residents who enjoy business and culture and the arts. we believe that this legislation is good for small business, good for musicians an other performers and good for san franciscans and visitors who appreciate live performance. there is an issue with the geography of this legislation and it covers the same territory that the current covers as with a right or conditional use. the difference with our permit that we're offering with the legislation that we're offering

is it will not require a conditional use permit. we feel like -- these permits are expected to have a far smaller impact on the neighborhoods and the performance for at least a year is only allowed until 10:00 p.m. and so we felt like it was appropriate to make them available to more businesses which by the way will respect a big savings for small businesses because the price tag that's associated with a conditional use permit. i'll give you a few details about the application process and the enforcement of the performance rather than the $3,000 or $4,000 tab. it will be a $385 application fee and a $395 annual renewal fee. upon submital of a submitted application, each application

will be submitted to the police department and recommendation to the planning department. the planning department will review the applications to ensure compliance and there will be a hearing at your commission. your commission may impose specific conditions relevant to the specific applicant. i think you also have some details about the enforcement of the permit in your material as well. but performance is allowed only until 10:00 p.m. for one year. after one year, they may operate after midnight. if there have not been any nuance concerns then there is a possibility that it would be ex-tened into midnight. the hours may be reduced and businesses must comply with health, zoning, fire and other basic requirements of any business establishment. d.j. performances are not

permitted as the legislation is now written and there are some other details which i think are in your materials. but that gives you a review of the proposed legislation. >> thank you. >> i'm happy to take any questions you may have about it. and i know regina's here from the small business office as well. >> maybe supervisor wiener? did you want to address this issue and the small business before we start questioning? >> yeah. >> feel free to to come up. >> good evening, commissioners. thank you for having me tonight. i want to thank supervisor mirkarimi for taking the co-sponsor with him. i believe it's a very important legislation. one of my priorities as supervisor has really make sure

that we continue to have a vibrant entertainment and night life scene in san francisco and we do in a lot of ways. but there is one hole and you go to -- of course, some other major cultural centers. the person playing the guitar or whatever in a cafe or restaurant where you don't really hear it outside but it is something that has the experience in the establishment. that's something we're missing in san francisco, in terms of the hurdles of being able to get to the point where you can have that minimal level of live music. so i think fills that hole and i think it will just increase both the cultural and economic contribution of the entertainment sector in san francisco and that's why i'm supporting it. i understand that there are some

neighborhoods that are being excluded from this ordinance. i'm not supportive of doing that. i -- i -- when it comes to the board, that's a conversation that we'll have especially with the district supervisors whose districts contain those neighborhoods but as the legislation stands right now, do i urge you to support it. thank you. >> thank you. >> good evening, commissioner, regina dickness director of the small office of business. i want to thank supervisor mirkarimi, thank your staff director cain for working on this piece of legislation together. as rob had mentioned that this is something i know that your staff has dealt with over the years. the small business commission wants the commission center

opened up. we're planning on opening up restaurants and cafes and one is to have music as an ack second sorry use and when we explain the permitting process and a lot of them are in our commercial district areas which you have a map that shows where currently entertainment is permitted and as a conditional use. it has the map with the blue and orange on it. did you put it in the packet? >> that one right there. >> it doesn't really show on the overhead but as you can see on the western part of the city where we have many of our neighborhood corridors. entertainment is conditional use which as rob had pointed out the

cost could be close to $4,000. so this made it very prohibitive and very expensive and it was a great disappointment. and then as the economy -- as the economy changed and businesses were wanting ways to bring in customers, retain their customers, this was also another thing that was expressed to our office and also heard to supervisor mirkarimi from his stitch wensy and -- and -- and also from our merchant corridors, they're looking at ways in ways they can keep neighbors inside their district and staying in their district and being able to have a glass of wine and hear music, they have to leave their district. i think of my favorite indian restaurant and it yutes to have its saturday night tabla

players. and it doesn't have it anymore because it can't afford the entertainment permit. so this was -- this has been something that we've heard from our business community. i do want to thank your director and supervisor mirkarimi for being committed in making this an affordable permit. what we really see is that we have our small businesses, one that operate with low profit margins who are really wanting to access this and thinking about the neighborhood where the economic -- we're trying to do economic revival as well. our commission did vote to recommend this, though with the recommendation to include back in the area that are not -- or not back in -- but to include the areas where entertainment is not permitted but to also allow the limited live performance permit to be permitted in those particular areas which we have

identified and you have a copy of the commission's recommendation for west portal, pacific avenue and the south of market and the c district and the parts of the market area. we understand that there are some with the west -- western somea that there are some rezoning proposals, but should this legislation pass this and then with the new zoning -- new zoning that's coming through with the western soma area, there will still be pars of south of market that still will not be able to apply for this permit around 4th street, 3rd street, the south of market. and so the commission has made that recommendation and encouraging the district supervisors to consider requesting supervisor mirkarimi to add those back in. and i'll be happy to answer any

questions if you need me. >> commissioner cain, do you have any questions? do you want to -- >> no, i mean, i think it was weighed out very well. i want to remind you that most of the people here are here for public comment. maybe you want to listen to public comment before your questions. >> i think we'll take questions -- >> whatever works for you. >> yes? >> yes. >> commissioner ricco. >> ms. andrisy. would you come back up? couple questions. we've obviously spoken regarding the western soma zoning district. so i understand your recommendations with regard to neighborhood commercial corridors and i think it's very short sighted on the part of the planning department to create neighborhood commercial corridors and then not do anything to make them work.

and that's what we have in the case of 6th street. it's just a label. it doesn't mean anything because as part of the eastern neighborhood process, they just didn't want to touch the whole subject of entertainment. in fact, as dan cider told me, they were afraid that if they got into all the wrangling that goes along with changing the status of entertainment, that it would probably bring the entire eastern neighborhood's plan down. so understandably they left everything just the way it was. but i think it's a real shame that 6th street has the hope of becoming a vibrant, interesting proactive neighborhood that would benefit the community as well as the small businesses. with regard to western somea, which i have a small interest in

, the areas that you outlined will be rezoned in the next six months, eight months or nine months or so. what they will ultimately be zoned for is called mixed use general. and the purpose of mixed use general is to put together as many compatible uses as possible. there are other parts of suth of market particularly the whole area south of harrison street which accounts for about a third of the entire special use district which will be rezoned sally which is service, arts and lights industrial. and we've gone so far as to bring down the housing action coalition upon us by saying no residential at all.

so the theory is, you know, we have probably the most places of entertainment in the whole city, is that correct director cain? there's always an argument between us and north beach. >> i don't know who wins. but it's close. you can see on the map. >> and i can assure you that every single venue in the south of market has some conflict with their neighbors already. so what we're trying to do is avoid putting more incompatible uses side by side. so i think it really works very well to take the area south of the street to say we would like all forms of entertainment and that's a major step forward, this limited live performance would certainly be welcomed along with perform o.e.'s an everything else. especially because we're not going to be anymore housing there.

then in the case of m.u.g.'s, we're under pressure to put in a lot of housing. the western soma plan is going to be adding 3,000 or 4,000 more units of housing. and since we fenced off sally and have stricter zoning in this street, we're putting new residential areas so i would caution your commission to step very carefully before they create more incompatible uses and whether this form of entertainment is incompatible or not, i'd like to add that conversation with mr. soma but just a message to the small business commission, you know, you have to be very careful of -- the reason it's a planning process is you try to plan for the impacts of these -- these sors of things. and so i would just ask you to take that message back to your commission. >> will do. and just a couple of points. so for the west portal area,

they want to maintain entertainment as not permitted but still be able to have the limited live performance because they see this is not in conflict with the residents and will actually keep the residents in their neighborhood commercial corridor. many of the businesses that we talked to are talking about daytime use. so they're talking about sunday brunch, early afternoon. so you noit, i think a lot of times we've talked to -- excuse me, if we could wave a magic wand and just create limited intensity venues that would be a wonderful world. but that's a conversation -- >> just a couple of other points is that the "south park" district which is not in the western soma task force plan, they would not be able to to -- be able to apply for a permit and also the s.l.i. area that's out of this proposed -- this

area of western s of course msks a task force area which is 3rd street, 4th street, that particular area where 25 loss orson, those businesses they would not be able to apply for a permit. >> right. thank you. >> yes? joseph. >> so i guess my question to this -- it's clear that you say no d.j.'s so no dance clubs would come of this at all, correct? >> i heard the first part. >> no d.j.'s. >> correct. it's no d.j.'s it's live music. i just want to bring to -- to -- to light to my commissioners, we had just two examples. we had catch restaurant on market street that had a piano player for years and now that space where the piano was which is above is empty because they can't -- they just couldn't afford to do it with the permit.

but they did have a piano player. and then the revolution cafe, i don't know if commissioners -- commissioner micko you may remember this. permitting this little bitty coffee shop on mission and they had a guy show up with the cello playing jazz. they needed a full board entertainment permit. and it was -- it was very onerous on them to -- to apply for that. i for one want to say i am not for any exclusions at all -- and i'm also not for waiting for the rezoning process because this rezoning process has taken years and to think that it might happen in the next six or eight months is just -- it's just too out there for me to even think that may be real. so that was that. also with regard to west portal which is very close to where i

live, there are lots of restaurants that would probably do much better if they have this to keep people in the neighborhood. and as far as incompatible uses, i think that's what this commission is for is to adjust for any incompatible uses and since they're going to have to come before our commission anyway, is that correct? >> yes. >> yeah, so then we can condition and adjust for that. now this permit that goes until 10:00 at night, can we adjust it so it goes to 9:00 at night if we had to or is it guaranteed to go to 10:00 at night? >> i think the way it's written, is that your commission will review the -- it and make modifications. >> great. >> just quickly, you mentioned west portal. i have an update on west portal. supervisor mirkarimi's stance on this has been that the place of

entertainment map is the guiding map as i've explained and as regina explained but is very clearly stated if there is consensus in that commercial district that they want to be included in the area supervisor wants to make an amendment to the legislation, they can come to supervisor mirkarimi and offer to make that amendment. and he called our office and said they were interested in doing that. >> yeah, there's a great italian restaurant called spiazo's that struggled. and i think if they were able to have a guitar player or a piano player they might not struggle quite as much, for sure. >> i'm going to be a little bit more long winded than i am on occasion. >> i thought you covered everything already.

>> commissioner -- thank you, mr. solma. before i say anything else, let me be totally clear that i am supportive of this legislation. i think, you know, we've been dealing with this question south of market for years and years. and to have different levels of entertainment, we try limbed entertainment permits for venues of 99 or less. we had ack second sorry entertainment and then the planning department says we couldn't call it accesory, we had to call it complimentary. and it went on and on and on. we want to turn folsom street into a vibrant portal. right now it's just an industrial area. but every time you talk to someone in the neighborhood about the idea of it becomes the ceremonial center of south of

market, they light up. you talk to them about two-way traffic and good transit service and ground level retail and all the things that go with neighborhood commercial, doctor's offices and dentist offices up on the second floor and housing further above. so this is all a positive thing. in other community meetings we came to a consensus but something we'd like to see is create the ability for restaurants and bookstores, art galleries and all of that to be able to feature forms of entertainment. and so it's all a positive thing. i have concerns in just three areas and i think they could all be rectified if everybody of good will comes together and is honest with each other. first is the spin vs. the reality of this.

the press is looking to summarize this idea in five words or less. nothing bad about the media. you have to cite your former career. five words or less i think they like to summarize this as folk singer in restaurant. and that's a great thing. and when i first spoke to supervisor mirkarimi, he was adamant about the fact that amplification was not necessary. but after a few trips to our city attorney, it seems that there's no limit on amplification. that's correct, right? >> there is no limit on amplification in this legislation, no. with the exception of the fact that d.j.'s are not permitted as already han been stated. >> right. now the sound control the standard that we hold for night clubs is they must have adequate

ventilation so that at all times the entertainment is presented all doors and windows should be closed. now, you don't apply that standard i would think on the one hand you don't want to have to put a burden on a small business to install ventilation, the kind of vent -- ventilation that we ask of night clubs. but i think the language is essentially the sound is not to be audible outside if the doors and windows are closed, if that's correct? >> that's correct. >> ok. it doesn't require doors an windows to be closed. >> that's correct. >> and i assume if northbound's complaining, doors and windows could be wide open. that's the case, right? >> yes. and you have to keep in mind that there are provisions in the

process that if there are complaints and there are problems, and there are issues in the neighborhood, then it could come right back before this commission and if the doors and windows being open in that particular location had created a particular problem then that can be addressed at the time. >> are there requirements for sound inspections before they get their permits? >> they are the same -- i don't believe so unless there are those kind of requirements that exist at every business in the city already. >> place of entertainment requires a sound inspection. would this require a sound inspection? >> this does not have -- >> director cain is shaking her head no. >> and she's correct. >> good. thank you. how many venues -- how many folks have already contacted you? can you give me some sort of idea how -- >> our office specifically? >> well, give me a big, big number. >> our understanding from the shawl business office and from

jocelyn is that scores of people have contacted them. we don't have a -- we haven't been creating a tally. i think it's been estimated that somewhere near 100 people have come to either our office or the small business office or jocelyn. and has said that they are interested in presenting some type of limited performance at their venue. but we -- specific count, i can't give you. er >> already. say we sort of set aside the notion that this is a folk singer in a cafe. >> well, let me be clear about that. this very clearly states that entertainment is an accessory use and it's not the primary use and it's live and it's limited until 10:00 or less. so it is modest and it is limited. and it is an akcessory use so both singers and guitar players

are a part of that, yes. >> i have a question. would it be accurate to say that a heavy metal band in a bar next door to a buddhist meditation center would also be permitted under this legislation? >> if the heavy metal -- let's see, if the business came before you and said, we plan to have heavy metal bands and by the way we're located next a buddhist temple and you approved of it under whatever conditions you wanted to make and the heavy metal band was required to stay within 200 square feet of the venue and met all the other limitations and restrictions that are part of this permit, then yes. >> ok. that's the reality check that i wanted to get home here. is we're not just talk about the folk sing ner the cafe, we're also talking -- >> no -- >> next door to the buddhist meditation center. >> it comes before your

commission and you believe it's appropriate in that venue. >> we don't have discretion. we only have a set of rules. the planning commission has a lot of discretion with regard to conditional use cases and that was the next subject i wanted to talk about. >> you would have some -- i'm sorry to interrupt you. you do have some discretion in modifying what the permit is and asking questions about what the por ported use is. >> but we can't tell them where they're allow -- whether they're allowed to have a folk singer or a heavy metal band. >> creb. but you do have the ability to modify the time of the permit and the extent of it through this permit process. you do have that. >> ok. let's talk a little bit about conditional use. i fully understand any place in the city where entertainment is a permitted use, go for it. makes total sense to me.

they have -- addressed those issues. everybody is living with it. i don't think you need to have to go back and reinvent the wheel. but in the case -- conditional use is awfully important to the neighborhoods. it is their last legitimate chance to be heard. the planning commission has a huge amount of discretion with regard to conditional use authorizations. they have a standard to judge whether a new venue is necessary or desirable. that's pretty loose. and they can say, look, here, 100 neighbors are lined up. they don't -- they argued some very good reasons why this should not be allowed and they can say, no, it is within our disdrotion say it's in the a good idea that location. we can't. so what are you going to say?

i've heard from a lot of neighbors about this, the fact that you're taking away their conditional use rights by this and they don't even get a trip to the planning commission. they come straight here where all we can really do is come up mitigations and that's not the same level of input as the planning commission can use to consider. so is there anything in this or anything you talked about that might give the neighbors something more to hold on to than simply doing over mitigations? >> it's interesting, we haven't gotten those kinds of responses from neighbors. we haven't heard from one person who has had that concern. but there is a 30-day neighborhood notification as part of this application process. the application goes through a planning department review. it goes for a hearing at your