last page of the report that i'm reading from the commission of animal control and welfare, it's talking about $100 permit payment. could you just describe, would that be a yearly permit fee per company? >> sure. to have a permit, the maximum fee for the initial application, the maximum would be 250, the maximum annual would be 100. there would have to be a calculation, because we cannot charge a fee higher than the cost of administering the program. so we put a higher cap for the first year just because of the up-front cost to the department of getting the program off the ground. but then it would be no more than 100 after that. commissioner o'connor: sounds like a fairly fair amount, compared to what other businesses are paying for their various permits. >> i had some dog walkers who

wanted it to be higher, and i thought that we should keep it pretty modest, because this is an industry that has a lot of people who are just getting by, and i thought it was important to have a lower fee. president o'brien: any further questions? ok, i had a question. i presume that the reasoning for imposing a limit of how many dogs was for safety purposes, or were there other considerations when that discussion was on? >> it had to do with ability to control and to clean up after the dogs as well as wear and tear on city property. those are the two. and safety being a part of the ability to control, recognizing there be dog walkers who have problems controlling two dogs and some dog walkers who control a lot more, and that smaller dogs are different than bigger dogs.

but smaller dogs can be difficult than bigger dogs. in terms of administering a program and enforcing them and consistent enforcement, it would be challenging to have a sliding scale in terms of the number of dogs. president o'brien: right. you kind of led into what i was going to get to, whether they discussed about the size of the dog. and i was also wondering if there maybe was a discussion about the breed of the dog. rottweilers, or the pe czar yo -- i'm not an expert on dogs, but some of these others that we hear about, there might be an idea that some sort of a delineation for dogs that are known for being bred for fighting purposes or something like that. just a thought that i had. >> yeah. i mean, i could envision a system where you differentiate, but, you know, whether it's rec and park or animal care and control, they have enforcement

in this city outside of parking tickets of the we have a lot of challenges. so i hesitate to create an overly complicated system where you'd have to have park patrol officers or animal welfare officers saying, is that dog over 20 pounds or under 20 pounds? is it this breed or that breed? it would just become very difficult. but, again, if someone has a brilliant idea on how that can be implemented effectively, i'm all ears. president o'brien: or at least in the beginning, maybe leave it out. ok. >> one thing i just wanted to also mention to the members of the public, people who are listening in or here, that my office continues to be available to receive any feedback that anyone has, ideas, questions rs concerns. the more specific people can be, the better, in terms of i don't like this. why don't you try it this way instead. you can call my office or email

and also, adam taylor is here. so tonight if you're not already -- if we haven't been in touch with you already and you want to be on our update list, make sure he has your email address, so we can stay in touch with you. president o'brien: ok, thank you, commissioner riley. commissioner riley: i think, supervisor, you answered most of my questions already. when i first read it, i had some questions about why seven dogs, and not eight. and then i'm also concerned about having to separately crate the dogs, and now you explain that that is no longer a requirement, which is good. and i also understood that the dog tag was the only certification program in town. but with the apprentice, i think that's going to resolve that. what about fees? is this $100 or $250? >> $250 is the first time when

you get a brand-new permit and thereafter the renewal is $100. commissioner riley: i think that's fair. thank you. president o'brien: thank you. ok. no more questions from commissioners. i'm going to open it up for public comment, but i've got a request for me to agree to that a member of one of the professional dog-walking associations would get an opportunity to present, and i'd like to give them an extended time. >> great. thank you very much, commissioners. president o'brien: thank you. members of the public, if you'd like to speak, you can assist the commission by filling out a speaker card on the side table and you can leave the speaker cards right up here up front and then we can call people in order and make sure we have time for everybody. >> good evening, commissioners, my name is nancy stafford, co-director of the san francisco professional dog walkers association, known as pro dog. i appreciate you hearing this

legislation, this proposed legislation. the san francisco professional dog walkers association strongly supports a permit for professional dog walkers. we feel the per fit will will help provide accountability and lenl it mize our members as professionals -- legitimize our members as professionals to the public. we have been advocating for a permit for over eight years, before the animal control and welfare commission and finally, with supervisor wiener. our organization, which was founded in 1998, has over 100 active members, with more joining each year. we would probably have more members, but we do have -- i get inquiries, but some people don't satisfy our requirements for membership, which is it's necessary to have a business license, and you need to be a smaller business of sick or less, because we don't have, in general, larger businesses. because most of our members are

single operators or else partnerships of one or two people. pro dog is dedicated to providing the highest quality of care to the animals entrusted to us. we advocate for responsible park use a.m. and have been stakeholders in discussions about dog policy in the golden gate national recreation area, as well as city parks. we estimate that there are a total of 300 to 500 professional dog walkers in the city, as well with about 170,000 dogs, according to the spca. the number -- we have a few comments, although scott did address some of these issues. the number of dogs allowed. we have always advocated for eight. the requirement that dog walkers insure clients are licensed. he kind of went over that, but we do have some concerns. the city should not force us to

refuse clients because their dogs are not licensed when groomers, veterinarians, kennels, doggy daycare and kennels do not have similar burdens. there can be a wide variety of reasons why people have not licensed their dogs. in many jurisdictions the rabies tag is the license, or they just moved here, they're visiting for a few months, they're confused about the length of the license, which runs concurrent with your rabies tag, anywhere from one to three years. they moved and they didn't get the renewal notice, etc., etc. professional dog walkers aren't the police and we don't really want to be acting as the police. we support dogs being licensed and will gladly hand out information politics for licenses. many of us do this already. who should be required to have a permit? pro dog feels that every individual who walks dogs for compensation without an owner present -- now this would exempt trainers, because most trainers work with the owner -- should be required to have a

pro dog walker permit. regardless of whether the dogs are on or off leash or whether the dogs are being walked in a park or on city streets. only requiring professional dog walkers to have a permit that walk more than four dogs at the same time will put some dog walkers, those with the largers groups, at an unfair economic disadvantage, compared to the other walkers, those who walk smaller groups. dog walkers who walk larger groups will have the financial burden of the permit, the insurance, the vehicle inspection and educational requirements that other dog walkers walking less will not. even though safety issues cited to justify those requirements apply, whether you're walking one dog or more. the permit fee. we suggest a permit fee of $150 to start out with, to encourage buy-in from the dog-walking community. safely restraining animals. this requirement is rather vague. we think it need to be spelled out. but we would suggest that it

means that the vehicle inspections would require a non--skid surface of rubber or rugs in the bed of the truck, that windows will have a strong screening, like, for example, hardware cloth to prevent escapes. that a vehicle with a soft top might not be acceptable, and that requirement for cars and advance may be different than from trucks. any requirements that dogs be in crates and vehicles is not feasible due to the variety of sizes of dogs in vehicles. educational requirement. this is incorrectly stated, but then he fixed that. it should be "or." displaying a permit. we have concerns about displaying the permit, because it can get tangled up, if it's not, and we often have so many different layers of clothing we're always taking on and off. it would be much better if we had the permit on us. nobody else is required to do that, and i don't want to see it as a scarlet letter. to identify us. we also see the potential for insurance costs, which vary

from $174 a year to $400, depending upon what insurance you use. any questions? president o'brien: i'll take all the questions after we've had all public comment. gives everybody that chance. ok, next. >> we have on the speaker cards, crystal mason, sky chrome, sally stevens, walter paulson. members of the public, public comment will be limited to three minutes. if you could please >> hi, my name is crystle mason. i have been a dog walker for about five years. i guess one of the main points i would like to make is that i think there definitely needs to be more time taken in getting this legislation together, because while i agree with the objective to sort of weed out

the bad dog walkers, as this legislation stands, and because of the vagueness and because of some of the things that are not some vague, i think it stands a chance of weeding out a lot of good dog walkers and will no longer be able to afford to do this job. i think the legislation needs to be clear. i will also say that i think the eight dog limit is more feasible than seven or six, because i know for myself, if i could only do seven dogs, it would cost me maybe $700 a month, and i think that there needs to be an impact study on the cost of this legislation to dog walkers but also to owners, because, you know, we are going to have to pass some of these costs on to owners, so i think there needs to be an impact study done before this the legislation goes into effect. i think there needs to be time taken for that. i think also for myself, i had some concerns about enforcement,

because, you know, there have been dog walkers reported to have been abusive to their dogs or some things of this sort, and nothing has been done. the parks and recreation, they come around when someone makes a complaint about noise, but i have never seen them talking to people about picking up their poop, for instance, or the behavior of their dogs at the park, so i do not have a lot of confidence in the enforcement at this point, so i think that also needs to be looked at. i will also say that they need to make sure that it is viable for people. i like the apprenticeships idea. i agree with you that there should be some pain involved. i do not think it should be prohibitive, but i think is an experienced a dog walker ticks on someone as an apprentice, that is war, and i do not think

that the dog walkers should be asked to volunteer for that time, because this is a job, and we are not non-profit, so i think that also needs to be looked at. and, yes, i think what is going to cost people really needs to be looked at before this goes forward, and i would say that, i would really suggest that we do away with the guidelines, because also there are some costs, like training and getting the license, you know, getting the car ready or things like that. that is not small potatoes for me. and a i think we need time. basically, we need time to make sure that this legislation helps and not hurt. president: thank you.

next speaker, please. >> hi, my name is -- i am a small business owner. i am a dog owner. i have been working with it for seven years. i started because i love dogs, and i realize that as much as i put into it, i will get out, and it has worked that way. i have gone to numerous dog classes, taken dog first aid, and i am certified. i also own a two dogs. i take them with me every day. if i have to cut my number is 25 orszag 6, that is going to cost me money, something like $10,000 every year, and i do not think that is there. i think that does not have to be done. all of our dog licenses are different. we work for our clients. sometimes i work on sundays and

help them with their dogs, and it helps people have well- behaved dogs. i feel it is hard to micromanage a group that is the difference, and i feel that some of these restrictions are micromanaging us. i personally do not want to wear a lanyard. i would be ok to carry a card in my wallet if somebody does ask me, but you can see me and know what i am doing. it would be great, people have a huge packs of 16 to 20 dogs, or at least they have a helper to manage such a number. i feel that the $250 is too high for people starting a business. what if they do not know anybody? the also have to pay a tax and get their vehicle approved, by the end and fix it up, -- buy

their vehicle and fix it up, partition it. you want to be able to do that. i also believe the enforcement problem is huge. i have called numerous times about an argentinian spitball or another who is being rough, and fights are starting, and nobody comes -- and argentinian paintball -- pat -- pittbull. i wish dog walkers were not being so vilified because i think we provide a good service, and thank you very much. president: thank you. next speaker. clerk: [reading names] >> before we move on, the director is your, rebecca cavs,

in case we have any questions. -- the director is here, rebecca cat -- katz. >> this originated back in 2003. in 2007, it came before the animal welfare commission, and we came up with a proposal that you have copies of, and again, it then went to recreation and park to administer and figure out how to do it. they did nothing. now it has come back, and people have talked to scott, and he has pushed this for, so this is something that has been in the work for a long time. there was a hearing at the dog

advisory committee, and admittedly eight years ago in some cases, but it has been on the radar for some time. it came to the commission that to a large extent people wanted to make sure that people understood that this was an actual profession. there is kind of a perception that anybody can be a dog walker. i just got laid off of my company, so i am going to walk dogs for a while before i get a real job. and we wanted to make sure that that was not the case. dog walkers are vitally important, as scott and others have said, for dog owners in the city, to know that your dog is safe and that the dog behavior's are controlled and that sort of thing. it is vitally important. we want to give it some legitimate, and this is where a lot of the standards and requirements came from. i also happen to be the chair of sf dog, and i have used a dog

walker for years with my dog, and our main concern is, of course, the safety of the animals, and that is with the vehicle inspections. to a lesser extent, the number of dogs can address that issue. we are concerned that dogs are licensed. we are not cops. there may be a penalty for those who are not license, but i am not sure that drug walkers should be responsible. we could live with aids, i suppose. we hear a lot of owners with people who complain about 12, 14 dogs. a few people can control them, but a lot of people cannot.

this is one of the reasons that as dog owners, we want to make sure that the dogs are taken care of. we support this idea. thank you. president o'brien: thank you. next speaker. >> good evening, small business commission. i am walter paulson. ♪ how much is that doggie in the window? i do hope that i can walk that dog ok ♪ and ♪ i'd love lassie i hope i can walk into the zoo, to the zero i love walking dogs. number two. make it work out, too, for the dog walking item two.

i walk my dog i want to walk him right by you. and you have got a dog walking friend. make it all right. when i walk in them. wog them around the bend, because you have got a best friend that you are walking around. you will walk them to the end, and you will walk your dog in the grassy park to the end. ♪ [applause] president o'brien: thank you. next speaker, please. commissioner o'connor: cannot

make a comment? i just want to make the comment that the first song was the best song and delivered with the best execution korean banks. -- thanks. >> thank you for hearing my comments. i run a small business with dog walking. i have been doing it for two years. i really just wanted to say that one thing i support about the legislation is the requirement that people who abuse animals are investigated and reported, and that information is made available. i think this adds legitimacy to the legislation and that it is coming from the right place.

for someone who has been doing this for two years, i was a little upset to see such an affiliation. what scott has said, they were not part of drafting it. when i with starting line business, i was going to go ahead and enroll in that, and i decided not to. they used to have a couple of training as a year, and i was looking for the calendar next april when this legislation would take effect, and there are four in that month, where there are normally two or three a year, and the tuition went up. tisch i do not really think it is inappropriate for them to be so involved maybe with the legislation. it seems that maybe there is a

potential for conflict of interest. they stand to make a lot of money. the number of dogs is a really hard discussion to have. i usually walk groups of aid to 13 dogs every week, my average criticize being about nine or 10. i like walking be larger groups. i do not feel it is appropriate for every park, but the dogs have a lot of fun, and they do want to stay in aipac. i would like to see the numbers stay as high as possible to make a good living. there are a number of expenses or a dog walking businesses. i have a new vehicle, and death.

i like to provide service for my client. eight seems like a good compromise, and it seems i am out of time, thank you. president o'brien: the local my name is steve. i am a dog walker. i have been doing this for the last couple of years. i was one of those people like was just mentioned. i started dointhis when i lost my job.

but i did this as a kid, and i loved it. what has been bounced around historically, neither one of them is ideal. six is going to make it really hard. even seven is going to make it very hard to make a living. i really get a feeling that frankly what people are trying to do is make it impossible for us to make a living. there seems to be a feeling that we make a ton of money. we do not. we walked your dogs or $20. you take one dog away, potentially to the blue dogs a day doing two groups, five days a week, 50 weeks a year, that is 10,000 dollars you could lose. now, it is not going to come to that, but the potential is there. we are talking a huge amount. i would like to see it be as high as possible within reason. i do not like large, large groups, but there is another

piniella has mentioned. many walkers walk with their own dog as a helper. q my own dog is a calming influence in the group. he helps plate, and he goes to get other animals who are straying. i am down her, i am down one more, and now i am down to five dogs. we have a big problem with that, and there are a lot of other things, but that was primarily what i wanted to go into. the number thing is huge, and it does not have to be six or eight. president o'brien: thank you. anymore who want to speak?

-- any more? clerk: i have one more, amy. >> scott waner has left, but i want to thank him for having started this discussion, and i want to thank you for your time, and commissioner dooley, i appreciate that you are out there and see our work. i know you have been in front of the people who are sort of the bane of some of our existence is. i see people here that i see out in the parks, and i see people who are fellow dog trainers, there are a lot of people near i know that are really coming from a place of where their heart is in the right place, but also where they are very educated and passionate about dog training