kind of way to main -- maintain about who is in charge of doing the apprenticeship program or violating the rules or codes. i am concerned. we are fighting a lot of things with the dgnra. we need to work with them. again with the training program, there should be some kind of level of expertise in terms of who can be a trainer or in apprenticeship other than just you have been doing it for x number of years. thank you for your time. >> were you advocate fog a particular number? >> as a small business owner, eight would be best. >> thank you. next speaker? >> hi name is kathy chen. i own and operate the rec center. we do a lot of things, but we

also have a dog walking arm. i support this legislation. i think this is great and thank you very much for bringing it up to us. we already do a lot of what the legislation is actually requiring. everybody is trained. we all got certified through dog tech, and we limit our dog walking grooms to eight dars. to answer chairman mar's question earlier about pricing, we price for a group walk for $25 a walk. for a private walk for taking somebody's dog around the block is $35. i acquired this business from someone else. so i have people who are paying down to $15 per walk and all the way up to $25. i would like to see the eight-dog limit. for me, if he average about $20

per dog walk, and i take two groups out per day, that averages out to be about $9,000 a year. that is a lot of money for us considering month to month we are looking at expenses such as -- somebody was saying earlier a brand new vehicle issue or something like that. on average i spend about $500 a month on gas, $400 a month on insurance, which is all the liability insurance, and then car repair. i budget about $250 a month because we change orbrakes, et cetera, et cetera. and we do a lot of city driving, which is stop and go. i actually have one employee, so i am interested in how this is going to develop with do i license every single employee or do i license the business as a whole and how do we go from there? >> it would be a business license for the business and each watcher would have to have his or her other permit but not

their own license if they are working for you. >> thank you. >> next speaker. come on up. >> hi. my name is chris a-t-l. i am an independent contractor. mostly i want to talk about the dog limit. i first want to say that i am all in favor of the legislation of us being regulated. i think that is a good idea. most people i have talked to think it is a good idea but the limit we really have to consider. i believe this legislation is being put in place to do good. i think what we have to be careful about, though, is running people out of business who are good dog walkers, and who love their jobs, and who want to continue their jobs. i have heard people say oh, you know, six or eight, it doesn't make a difference. but believe me, it does make a difference. one dog could be the difference

between $100 a month. and then you take that to a year, you can do the math on that. and for an independent contractor like myself, it is paramount that i be able to take on extra dogs. i usually do anywhere between 5-7 dogs a walk, two groups a day. but a lot of my business come from customers saying can you take fifi for the week, which may give me like seven dogs for the week. other people may have emergencies and they want me to take an extra dogs. that also means we can't take vacations. if i want to go away a couple of weeks, i ask a couple of our dog walkers, can you talk -- take a couple of my caution? my customers don't want a lot of different people with keys

to their house or the codes to their garages and things of that sort. that is also important, i think. but i think it is really that we have to take seriously that most of us dog walkers, most of the people i have talked to have sedate would work for them. it would be hard, but it would work. >> thank you very much. next speaker. >> hello. my name is maria taylor. i have been a professional dog walker in san francisco for 17 years. thank you so much. this legislation is amazing. i think you for your care and time with it. i personally self limit at six dogs. i support a six-dog limit and would compromise with the seven. one issue i want to bring up. i have watched the big explosion of dog walking in the city in the time i have been doing it, and what i have seen is sometimes dog walkers will kind of normalize -- maybe not

necessarily having control over the pack. even though somebody has been doing it quite a while, it doesn't necessarily mean they know what they are doing 100%. some people do. what you have to consider perhaps in addition to -- the end result in getting the licensing, having some sort of test that people have to complete. you say we all have different styles, but we want the same end result, dogs that are well under control so that we can all be in the same parks with each other, that we are not scaring families, chasing kite boarders and things like that. the result is a well managed pack of dogs. they may have different weighs, but can we have some sort of test that people have to pass, written or something, or having animal care and control to see how they manage the pack, but just so that we have the same

end result. i have seen people normalize behavior, and they say well, you lose dogs sometimes. that is not the way i operate. even though somebody has been doing it a long time doesn't necessarily mean they have picked up all the skills necessary. thank you. >> i just want to respond to a question you asked about the testing. one of the goals that i have tried to achieve in the legislation is simplicity. so having basic -- training or an apprenticeship, although testing would be terrific in terms of administering that for animal care and control. that would be, at least under our current world, not doable, but i very much do appreciate that sentiment. >> thank you. >> next speaker. >> hi. steve hooker, hooker's hounds. like everybody else, thank you, thank you, thank you. i appreciate it as well.

however, do have some concerns. i'm a resident since 1976, a home owner since 1991. i have been doing this since 2009. i am a relative newcomer to the business, but not to dogs or walking groups of them. that is what we did when i was a kid. we walked them all over the neighborhood. i am a dog walker, not a sex offender. why are we going to post our pictures on a website if we miss a poop? don't do that, please. also, people who do what i do contribute greatly to the local economy and provide a vital service. removing our profitablity is a bad idea. i really hope you will go with the eight-dog limit and the personal dog. if you can't find your way to

that, the seven-dog limit plus a personal dog would be a step better. $20 is your average. that is twice a day, $20, five days a week, 50 weeks a year. that is $10,000. that is the potential for how much you could lose. we usually run below our maxwell so that we can take on extras to provide that flexibility other people have talked about. we won't be able to do that. there are a lot of other things we won't be able to do as well. we need a lot of nngs in this industry. we need standards for responsible behavior, education, ability to take a rest or go to the doctor. all dogs identified with a walker's tag and owner's tag so we can get strays back to the people they are with. are we done now? >> yes. thank you. i will note, i don't know if you were here in the beginning,

in the amendments, i am proposing one of them at to make it on the website, you have to have a violation three times in a 12-month period. anyone can violate it out of minor injure, and we are trying to get a-- minor negligence, and we are trying to get away from that. >> there are people walking dogs without any identification and other safety issues for the dogs, like how to properly restrain dogs in cars. they are being tied down in ways not safe. >> thank you. are you mar e.r.a.? >> no. i am julia frank. here is my card. >> let me call mar ya taylor, suzanne emmett to speak after you. go ahead. >> one of the things i wanted to talk about was the vehicles, they said about having to restrain the dogs in the vehicles. i think that can actually be

potentially dangerous. it kind of depends on the vehicle and the set-up, but i would find that hard. and that each vehicle needs to be approved. often i have to rent advance or vehicles because somebody's car has broken down. i have my vehicle which they can usually use, but there are occasions where i have to rent a u-haul or enterprise to make sure all the dog walkers get out and the dogs get walked. the other thing about the training course and the controlling of the pack, i took the course at dog tech, and they do a field training to make sure you can manage dogs and working with them in the field. i think that could be part of that training program that was proposed. i guess that's it. >> the word restrained used, that is not meant to be

restrained as in tying the dog down. but in terms of like the proverbial 10 dogs in the back of a pickup truck all sort of flailing around. basically secure is the main thing that we are getting out there. but we will take a look at that lang and see if it needs to be clarified. >> and how to secure them in different types of vehicles. many people have different types of vehicles. >> the legislation is intentionally general. the director of animal care and control will issue the guidelines on that. >> and i thank you also. >> thank you. i appreciate it. next speaker. >> also, one of the common things i see in dog parks is often dog walkers leave their dogs in the vehicles while they walk other dogs. i have seen that in a variety. i know there isn't any regulation against this unless it is a hot day, and usually they say it doesn't get hot enough in san francisco.

my walks are 45 minutes to an hour, and i have seen dogs in the car that full period of time, and i think there needs to be regulation of that. otherwise you are going to have dog walkers coming with big advance with 20 dogs in it, taking out six or seven -- i think seven is five for the cap of the number of dogs. >> thank you very much. next speaker. >> my name is susan adams. i'm not a dog walker, but we employ a dog walker for my dog to go out three times a week. so she is not a full-time client. basically what i'm afraid of, and why i am here, i am afraid these regulations are going to drive some of the small business dog walkers out of business by the seven limit cap. as you heard before, a lot of the walkers -- evidently not all of them, but a lot of them

need flexibility where their client can call up and say can you come today, or not today and come tomorrow. that is going to eliminate some slots. my dogs can't go out five or six days a week to hold that slot. you have heard that dog walkers take other dogs from their grooms. if there is an emergency that arises, what are they going to do if somebody gets sick, and they need seven dogs spread around and the other walkers won't be able to accommodate that? those are issues i see. secondly, i don't see a direct correlation between park safety and the number of dogs that a dalk walker brings in. i think there are other factors, the controllability of a group, the size and age of the dogs, the obedience that the dogs have been trained with

before, and the training that the dog walkers has. when a dog walker goes in, i have seen a walker with four dogs who were completely out of control, and the walker had absolutely no sensibility with the group. and walkers that walk in with 12 dogs and the dogs are right there with them and walking. so i think there could be a formula to figure out how to consider these other factors in making up -- and it would be difficult, but not impossible. >> thank you very much. next speaker. this is the final speaker that we have. you can hand up your yellow card to the clerk. go ahead. >> hi. my name is emmett miller and i manage metro tails. we are a dog walking service in the city. my only request would be that you take into account how it will impact a business that has multiple employees. we have roughly 10 employees.

we basically already comply with everything thaw are proposing. we have a seven-dog limit. we provide 60-80 hours training to our employees. but for us, this is always going to be the financial impact of everything that you are doing. >> what is that financial impact? >> i am sorry? >> what is that financial impact? >> if we are going to have to pay like a permitting fee per employee, and aim just getting up and i do fully support it, but with training, as long as we are allowed to do our training in house. supervisor wiener: is there a copy of the revised? ok. and then -- >> hhi, good afternoon. i own a small company called

little buddha walking. -serviced on is basically disabled, and i do one walk per day. i think anywhere between seven and 12 or so dogs is kind of my comfort level. i have to say, it is hard to sometimes pick of the dogs, and you have to keep the dogs really safe. for me, it is a big deal, as is the vehicle expense. i spent about $250 per month on gas, which i think is pretty good, considering, but, you know, for holidays or people boarding dogs, or the flexibility, it is just not there. and that troubles me a little bit. i want to be able to make a living. i had 10 dogs at the park today,

and there was not one second that i did not feel that i did not have the dogs under control, that i knew where they were. that they were probing. we go to the same park every day. all in all, i do want to say thank you for this legislation. i know a lot of people have worked on it. there are a lot of stakeholders in the community, so -- [bell] thank you. supervisor wiener: thank you very much. the next speaker, which is the last speaker, unless there is someone that i missed. >> hi, my name is -- and i agree that dog walkers should be licensed, and i believe that all dogs should be licensed. since there are more dogs in the city, they need the money, and they should be licensed, and

they should only be allowed to be walked in large parks. this must be in force. we go quite often on the number one bus, and this is in other areas of the park, other than the specified areas where the dog walkers should be, so that is what i wanted to say today. thank you. supervisor wiener: is there any more public comment? seeing none, mr. chairman, can we close public comment? supervisor mar: public comment is closed. supervisor wiener: this is a difficult time of day for many dog walkers. i had some come to give me feedback, and i have gotten some that i thought " -- i does want to thank everyone who has

participated. it has been an interesting process, and i think you for teaching me. first, mr. chairman, i would like to see if we can take the amendments that we have here, which i have outlined, if we can accept those amendments? >> to just clarify, there is the proposed recommendations, and i think all of them are recommended accept the number. >> i would like to accept those and then have been an amendment or not have an amendment. >> -- president chiu: so on the amendment, without objection. [gavel] supervisor wiener: in this one area that says that the permittees cannot walk more than

seven dogs at one time, i will say that having heard from an enormous number of dog walkers, i would say probably 80% advocated for eight dogs. probably about 10% advocated for a lower number, and may be about 10% advocated for a lower number. i did receive what i view is a pretty overwhelming majority asking for the eight dog limit. there has also been quite a few dog walkers, and it was raised today as well when they talked about the issue of the personal dog. in other words, you have a dog that tags along and can help you manage the other dog. that is kind of the one dog that is always there. i think it would be a mistake to go with six dogs. i think that is two -- too low. it is just not economically feasible. so i would suggest, colleagues,

but there are two issues to decide. whether we also allow for a personal dog as recommended by the small business commission, so, colleagues, i am really curious to hear your views on these. >> -- supervisor mar: that additional dog that is not paid that belongs to the dog walker, that makes sense to me. it was brought up by a number of people. it seems like a divided number in the audience, but i think to be sensitive to small businesses, bumping it up to 8, i think i could live with that, and i think some people said it did not matter that much, but i think the recommendation of eight, that sounds like an amendment that i would be supportive of if it was made by

my colleagues. >> supervisor cohen? supervisor cohen: this is very interesting, because i grew up with a dog, but i have never thought about six versus eight or nine. when you go to the airlines, and you have a personal carry-on items, a carry-on plus a personal item, you know there are passengers that try to pack -- pushed that envelope, so i am kind of thinking about how do we really know this is a personal blog? i do not know, but i am sure the community will monitor itself and regulate this, but i am just giving you my true thoughts on the issue. >> a dog is licensed? supervisor cohen: that is

actually a really good idea, something i gave all lot of thought on. i am sure many of all of you know that a large part of this is in district 10, so it has been a very popular issue in the neighborhood, and so, supervisor wiener, thank you. i have your emails. my comment, from what i can here, i am willing to go with eight, eight dogs and then a personal dog, and then, of course, that is just the beginning of all public policy, that we come back and amend and tweak, and it changes need to be

made, we can do that. >> ok, so i guess an additional amendment would be 39.07 a, and i will provide the clerk with this in writing. the permit team may not walk at one time more than eight dogs for consideration plus one dog owned by the dog walker, period. but dog owned by the dog walker must be visibly identified as such. it is what was recommended? >> i think that would follow along with the guidelines with eight dogs plus the one personal dog, clearly identified as the personal dog to the dog walker,

and we can set those procedures. supervisor wiener: would you like to add anything? >> i know there are concerns about the small businesses. if you do the math, seven dogs is a pretty significant amount. that, more than any of my employees may. it is still a pretty lucrative business proposition, and the number of dogs has to deal with the ability to clean up, to make sure that the dogs are not running out into the street, to make sure that there is not a pack mentality, so from an animal welfare -- welfare perspective, as well as a public safety perspective, i think once you get to nine dogs, you are

pushing it, but i defer to the committee. supervisor wiener: thank you. ms. ballard, did you have anything to add? anything further, calling this? supervisor cohen: given to what stabbed just said, let's start with something, and then we can come back and we can make changes. >> i appreciate that. i have to say, when i introduced the legislation and i stated seven dogs, one of my colleagues, who shall remain nameless came up to me and said, "seven dogs, that is too high," and i said, "it is currently in affinity." i think supervisor cohen's poin t is a good one.

president chiu: should we adopt that? ok. supervisor wiener: since we cannot do this today, i will say that we should move this to january. if somebody publicly commented today, my understanding is that they cannot comment on the ninth. is that right? present -- supervisor mar: our city attorney. >> because this is put for notice, you would have to allow people to comment at least on the fee aspect. supervisor wiener: so we have heard a lot, and unless you are feeling the burning need, i think this will be a shorter item next time, so thank you, everyone. supervisor mar: thank you.

ms. miller, we are going to supervisor mar: there were a number of speakers mentioned, and i want to know if these people can come and speak, and then i will start with the cards. ms. hester? >> sue hester we thought that we had a long shot, so it is the courteous thing to do. we will wait until they are done so they do not have to wait. supervisor mar: so let me read cards.